taxi4ballet

13 hours ago, Graceful said:

This isn’t true. You can get funding for a second degree (limited Choice but it’s not true to say ‘they are stuffed’). You also can do an Open University degree with no A Levels and get funding for it (even though it’s classed as part time, you can finish it within 3 years). 
You can get funding for 4 years for your first degree. 

i just think it’s important to put that information out there. 

If someone has used up two years' student funding on one degree, then they can embark on an entirely different degree, but they only have two remaining years' worth of student loan available. The third year would have to be self-funded. Not all that many people have parents who can afford to support their dc for another three years, and find the money to pay for their final year on top. 

Yes, anyone can do Open University courses, but doing it within three years would be a pipe dream for most. Again, the question of funding and having to earn a living rears its ugly head.

40 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

This Panorama was exactly the same week as a lot of upper schools started and was not an easy watch at all for us newbies! 

Not an easy watch for the ADs and the teaching staff at vocational schools either. I don't think it was a random coincidence, I think the timing of the broadcast was deliberate.

20 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance. 

Nothing wrong at all, if the student is up to it.

In my dd's case, it was several years before she could even bear to think about dance or performing arts again. She left vocational training with a career-ending injury, and emotionally - and this is not too strong a word for it - traumatised by the way she was treated with such sheer callous indifference. 

21 hours ago, Baker45 said:

I know there is a lot of discussion on A levels and top ups and it is true that is you do not make it to graduation year (this is a very small number of students) they are sometimes offered to retake a year as an option. Those that do leave generally find places on other graduating years in other dance schools so it isnt like they drop out of ballet completely unless they chose to. Most normally carry on their dance careers elsewhere and find new dreams in other companies.

 

Also alongside the degree course the students must also take other academic studies which can include A Levels and any other courses available (whether they have the time or not is another question). They are also mentored with careers advice as to what they would do if things didnt go as planned, injuries cut a career short or just general advice what the training they have had can l lead them into in future

 

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change. Yes the Panorama program has highlighted some failures in the system but to many in the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

There are a number of people who, for either physical injury or mental health reasons, leave the ballet world altogether part-way through upper school training. Some upper schools offer A-levels alongside the dance training, most don't. At those, if available at all, it is very much an optional add-on and no provision in the timetable is made for it. 

As for careers advice when dance is no longer an option... non-existent would be how I describe that.

4 hours ago, Anna C said:

Indeed.  I may be wrong here, but I believe that if you leave/are assessed out after 2 years of 16+ ballet training with a foundation degree or certificate, you are very limited in what subjects you can “top up” to a BA.  If your Level 5 HND/Foundation degree/diploma/certificate is in Dance or Dance related studies, you can only “top up” to a Level 6 degree in the same, or a closely related field.

You are correct. Which can leave students leaving the profession altogether in a difficult position. They have already used up 2 years-worth of student loan, so would have to self-fund part of a degree course in a different field, and won't have sufficient UCAS points anyway to be accepted onto the course. But because they have a level 5 qualification, they cannot access foundation courses or A-levels at their local college in order to top up their UCAS points, which are lower than level 5, but a level 5 doesn't qualify for UCAS points.

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

15 hours ago, Ondine said:

Why does being British matter?  As I said above, the Royal Ballet has always been an international company.  I'm not sure restricting the schools to an intake of only those with a British passport will solve other issues.

 

Has anyone any information about how many French students are taken into the POB school each year, how many move from the POB school into the company each year, and how many of those who don't make it find work elsewhere?

Why does it matter? Because the British taxpayer is stumping up millions to fund students training at various vocational schools through MDS and Dada funding, and a large number of those students do not complete their training, not because they aren't good enough, but because they are failed by the system.

As a taxpayer, I want to know why.

1 hour ago, Kerfuffle said:

I don’t believe there is any reason why RBS  should be any different to Paris Opera Ballet which has a majority of French children. We aren’t that different as a nation or culture, fundamentally. 

Quite. It is extremely difficult to get into POB school unless you are French, and almost impossible to get into POB company unless you were trained in their school.

So if POB school can manage to produce exactly what POB are looking for from home-trained talent, why can't RBS?

14 hours ago, Ondine said:

It's also worth looking at the final destinations of those who graduate from RBS Upper School. 

It is also worth wondering why so many of those who start training in upper schools (not just RBS) and don't graduate because they are shoved aside to make room for twinkling stars coming in for a final polish.

How come, after years of training at a supposedly world-class school, are they not good enough to compete with dancers trained elsewhere in the world?

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

4 hours ago, dancefanatic said:

I'm sorry but have to butt in here.  Sadly, more and more companies in Europe are insisting that applicants possess EU passports and US rules around visas seem to vary company by company, even when in the same State, making it increasingly difficult for our lovely new graduates who only possess a British passport to even apply for jobs.  And yet graduates from around the world are able to be granted jobs and/or apprenticeships with British dance companies.  I know this goes off-topic but is increasingly a bug-bear of mine.  I personally would like all dancers, no matter their nationality, ethnicity or gender, to have equal opportunities globally than have what appear to be unfair restrictions placed on our UK dancers, particularly at the beginning of their careers.  So I personally disagree with the point raised here.

 

It has been a bugbear of mine for some time also. British dancers are prevented from getting jobs overseas, yet they can't get jobs at home either because dancers from other countries are not just welcomed here, but actively sought out.

And, as we can all see by the statistics, very few British dancers trained at British vocational schools actually make it all the way through their training anyway. They can't all be the wrong shape or not good enough.

There is something absolutely rotten at the core of vocational dance training in the UK.

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

In the Panorama and radio broadcasts some of the students did say that they felt watched and judged by all the other students. Ellen E highlighted a moment when she returned to RBS after battling glandular fever and received a round of applause. Because she had lost more weight through the illness, at that time she took it to be approval for that, and it reinforced her resolve to lose more. Now she admits she may have misinterpreted, and it was just to welcome her back.

Yes, but it does beg the question - why did she feel that way about her weight and needing to be thin in the first place? 

4 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

I don´t say it is good if any teacher offends on purpose anyone, in a nomal school or a Vacational school! Nonetheless, any teenager sonetimes hears or reads something and is offended by that! At that age, girls are often mean to each other and also often misunderstand others! And they think anything they hear refers to themselves... I think you all know such situations!

According to my dictionary, 'offended' means to feel resentment or annoyance, typically as a result of a perceived insult.

It is not the right word to describe how girls (and boys too) feel when someone criticises their appearance or tells them they are overweight.

They are far more likely to feel hurt, distress or embarrassment, and to take those remarks to heart, particularly when the person saying it is their ballet teacher. The young person will often then lose confidence in themselves, and may sometimes try to do something about 'the problem', such as restricting their food intake to an unhealthy degree in order to lose weight.

This issue at vocational schools is not about the unkind things that teenagers say to one another. It is about the appalling disregard that some staff at vocational schools have for the physical and mental wellbeing of the young people in their care.

Does anyone happen to know next week's winning lottery numbers?🤣

1 hour ago, Richard LH said:

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

Oh really? Well you can only ask for clarification if you know there is a misunderstanding to be cleared up in the first place!

What the teacher said to us was as clear as day. As clear as it could possibly be. Except my dd, at that age, did not quite grasp what the word 'potential' meant.

She told my dd that she had huge potential to be a really good dancer. If someone told your child that, and you actually heard them say it so there was no mistaking the words, what would you think? Would you automatically know that your child would believe the teacher was telling them they were currently pretty useless but would improve with hard work? No you wouldn't.

My child had just been told that she was really good and had the ability to become outstanding. How was I supposed to know that my dd didn't understand what 'potential' meant, and had misinterpreted it? 

21 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Students mishearing or misinterpreting is unfortunately quite common. Years ago I had a young teenage pupil and at the end of the exam practice, to encourage her, I said that I thought she would get a nice surprise with her exam result.  This was reported to mum as "Miss X thinks I am going to fail!" Luckily said mum knew I would never say such a thing and rang me immediately, so it all ended happily. But it taught me a valuable lesson.

Oh this!

It didn't come out until quite recently, when dd and I were discussing her early dance training. Someone once told my dd in my presence that she had "huge potential".

My dd, who was about 11 at the time, did not understand what the teacher was really saying. She took it to mean that she wasn't very good, but if she worked really hard then she could get better. No wonder she had confidence issues...

12 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

Offended, no. Self-conscious and hyper-aware of the changes in their bodies, yes. A seemingly throwaway remark thoughtlessly made can, and often is, taken to heart and never forgotten.

All dance teachers should know about that. All the more reason for them to avoid criticising the bodies of growing adolescents at what is a highly-charged hormonal time for all teenagers.

11 hours ago, Bellaboo said:

Yet a couple of years ago my child was prodded in the stomach after eating Lunch by a ballet teacher  and told ‘this is a problem’ she was 17 and 6 stone. This my dc had only just told me. She felt humiliated and caused much upset. 

Ah yes. The 'food baby'. 

I agree that BMI is largely useless, especially for adolescents. My dd was in the 'normal' range until the day she switched from the child charts to the adult ones, whereupon in an instant she went from 'healthy' to 'underweight'. BMI takes no account whatsoever of people's natural skeletal frame either. 

26 minutes ago, Jewel said:

My child attended a summer school at Tring.  When we picked her up she declared that she was starving, there hadn't been enough food and the portions were really tiny & they were not allowed seconds, so could we please take her for something to eat. (she was already full time at another school by that point, the Tring SS was to see if she wanted to apply for Upper School)

That's interesting, because my dd did quite a few of their residentials - Easter and Christmas ones mostly, probably around 8 of them spread over several years, including NYB one year and a Cecchetti summer school as well. She never mentioned anything like that at all.

6 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I remember years ago my DD was in a summer intensive and I chanced upon a group of mums in the waiting room chatting. Their daughters were in one of the schools featured in the documentary, and were in one of the older groups of the intensive. They were all worried about their daughters’ attitudes towards food and eating in general at the time. I remember distinctly like it was just yesterday, though this was a good few years ago, what one of the mums told me: “Oh they’re all at it at school. It’s just moving from one bizarre diet to another but constantly being on some strange diet.”  The whole talk hinted at competitive dieting in such a small, enclosed environment - who can be skinniest, who can have the longest lines. That conversation stayed with me for years and whilst my DD has never been in full time vocational school, since then I’ve been so vigilant in subtly looking out for warning signs. Thankfully so far, knock on wood, she’s not the type to even think about it. She doesn’t have the textbook ideal diet but I think a big part of how it’s a non-issue for her (and often oblivious that eating issues exist) is because she has very distinctively separate dance and ‘normal teenager’ lives. I remember one time we were walking towards her associates class and she was eating a burger having just come from another class. We rounded the corner and I saw some of her peers snacking on healthy bars. I told her to go back around the corner as I was embarrassed she was eating ‘junk food’. She marched on ahead and said to me “I’ve just been dancing for two hours. I need the energy.”  I was told later that she even broke out some cake in the change room and shared it around. In that moment, I did think my DD had a more normal attitude towards food than me and I felt ashamed. It might be a controversial decision but my husband refused to let our DD watch the programme. His fear was that despite numerous talks and lessons on healthy eating in their (normal, non-vocational school), our DD is still quite naive and innocent about how prevalent these can be in the dance world.  He didn’t want to bring the topic to the forefront of her mind when it never has. 

Your post reminds me of something I witnessed at Tring first-hand. While my dd was still a recreational dancer, she used to attend their dance days and workshops. At one of them, to which parents were invited to observe class, there was a long table in the main building full of tea, coffee, and piles of cakes and biscuits. We had all eaten our fill, and while we waited to be called in to watch our kids, a class of teenage full-timers burst out of their studio, charged along the corridor on the way to their next class and helped themselves to the offerings on the table as they went. It was like a plague of locusts had descended, and there was very little left after they'd gone. I wondered whether they were allowed to help themselves to food laid out for visitors, looked at a member of staff standing by me and she said with a grin:  "They burn off a lot of energy, they need it!". That left me feeling very positive that at that school at least, there was a healthy attitude towards eating.

9 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I don't think OFSTED or King Charles should at this time actually be commenting TBH.   I'm not sure that the DCMS operates in such a manner as to knee jerk react with public statements to a BBC programme without further investigation / consideration.

 

This is the lawyer handling some cases against the schools. I don't think a Twitter campaign such as this is the way ahead, but lawyers are always keen to drum up business I suppose.

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't expect any response at all from the King, who is after all only a figurehead (although I suspect that someone from the palace has been seconded to take a look), nor from OFSTED as yet, who would not want to be going off half-cocked without taking a good rummage through their records first.

20 minutes ago, along for the ride mum said:

And let’s not forget that it isn’t only the artistic staff who need to be implementing policies and regulating their own professional behaviour. The pastoral/ boarding staff must also be held to account. No amount of talking about your stringent safeguarding policies actually means they are being effectively implemented!! 

In dd's case, one element was a monumental administrative cock-up which didn't come to light for over a year, by which time it had caused irreparable damage.

7 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

This Taxi & indeed so much more….

Ignoring parent emails 

Ignoring pupil emails…

(if they don’t respond to the email does that mean it’s never acknowledged that there is a safe guarding issue???) 

The list I provided was some of what my dd personally experienced. I can't put the rest as it is too identifying. 

23 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

Please could you help those of us who might be described as being 'outside' understand what the other issues are? I'm not asking out of idle curiosity but from a genuine belief that it could be helpful for everything to be 'put on the table'.

Lack of support for students recovering from physical injury.

Blatant favouritism of some students over others.

Highly critical remarks about capability in front of fellow students.

Ignoring those students needing support with academic studies.

Refusing to discuss issues with parents.

Repeatedly cancelling school physio appointments in favour of other students.

Proper procedures not being followed by staff and the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.

Telling a student that no choreographer would cast them in anything.

A lack of accountability.

Not referring an student for medical investigation.

Closing ranks and a complete refusal to accept any culpability.

Point blank denial that they said something upsetting to a student.

Accusations that a student 'must have misunderstood' what was said to them (although they denied saying it in the first place of course).

Humiliating a student in front of an invited audience of patrons and special guests.

I could go on - how long have you got?

I've just read those links posted above. What a crock of ....