Allwrong

I have a lot of thoughts on this! 

I entirely agree with abitwornout that waiting till 16 gives your child a better chance to make a genuine choice with a more solid idea of what they are committing to. However, even after-school dancing can draw a child into an unexamined commitment too early, particularly with lots of hours and various associate schemes, and can take a real toll on family life. I have always been sad to see little brothers languishing outside the dance studio, playing on phones.

My personal experience and inclination would tend to say that waiting is better. But it's a very complex choice. 

My feeling is that unless you are looking at top international companies, even staying at home till 18 is becoming an option. Is anyone else, I wonder, beginning to see dancers from your local schools getting places at Central and RCS post-A Level?  Age is getting to be a lot less crucial, as increasingly dancers seem to spend one or even two years in 'holding pen' type post-graduate (post Upper School) courses which probably keeps them dancing whilst on the audition circuit rather then necessarily accelerating progress (correct me on that if that impression is wrong).

My DD (a post 18-er, UK), is very clear that if she had gone away at 11, which we never considered at the time, she would be contract-ready and much more likely to succeed by now, and doubtless in the long run. However, she has also said that she doesn't regret it one bit because a normal childhood and not boarding has given her a much richer life. That said, she is unusual in that things academic are a real passion, and also she only did in general one evening and one associates class a week, so family life was relatively available to her, and other interests too. Also her home teacher is an amazing woman who has supported her unequivocally and pointed her towards all sorts of opportunities, despite our much lesser presence at the dance school. The upshot is that now she is vocational she is catching up on the missed years of dancing with surprising speed, and her vocational school is confident that she is as likely to succeed as their more standard students (most are from full-time vocational backgrounds from various countries).

So the choice isn't straightforward, nor the same for every child or every family by any means. Lots of out-of-school hours with 'normal' schooling can have just the same over-commitment, distress and burn-out potential as vocational boarding, with family life for the rest of the family more heavily impacted. But boarding is really not something to be undertaken lightly. Early vocational training certainly programmes the body very effectively, and really does give the child an advantage. Intensive training later can allow surprisingly quick catch-up, but it is tough as the hard-wiring isn't there and the moves aren't so indelibly written into the body. Those tricky moves need more intense concentration and are more likely to go wrong. And it is pretty much impossible to get into the big national companies by that route, although very worthwhile and fulfilling contracts are certainly within your grasp.

I'd also like to add that unhappiness in vocational dance school is clearly too prevalent. But 'normal' academic schools are no picnic either. DD had a grim time at her supposedly (though not very) academically selective (state) school, constantly undermined in sneaky ways by contemporaries, staff disengaged and uninterested in an academic child, and smugly convinced it was a lovely place. 

So basically, as a parent you can't win

Thank you meadowblythe!

Devoted to Dance. There is a shop is in Exeter, but the business is also (mainly?) online, via facebook and instagram. 

So would an academic degree in a non-dance subject be acceptable for a European visa application for a classical ballet contract, in anyone's experience? Seems strange if so, but would cause some jubilation in this household.

I know of successful auditions at cbs and rcs by 17 yr olds applying to start post-A Level at 18. Non-vocational students pre A Level, but with a lot of dancing hours per week.

Luke Abnett is excellent, and specialises in dancers having worked for RBS. https://balletphysio.com/about/. He is a lovely man and a very clear and reassuring communicator, as well as very knowledgeable.

Some cheering news from a Japanese friend of DD with no EU passport: her EU ballet company were happy to wait more than six months for her visa problems finally to resolve, and she finally started her first professional contract within days of it arriving (last week  )

I agree so much with the desire for more youth ballet opportunities. We generally avoided festivals and competitions, although joining group dances could be fun. But any ballet staging DD could get her hands on - far fewer than we would have liked because we are not London or midlands - we moved heaven and earth to get involved in. And those handful of experiences were truly magical ones. So I do agree that it would be lovely if this type of opportunity was readily available to the keen amateurs. Budding musicians can join orchestras from a young age and produce very imperfect but entertaining music. Ballet could look to that model more often, rather than competitions, I feel. But then I’d have enjoyed watching festivals so much more if they had been displays, not competitions. And overall I feel we have lost a great deal with the early push to professionalisation of so many fun activities: the aspiration to be a gifted amateur has been lost, and with it many opportunities.

You guessed it: flute! Can also play piccolo. He’s tried a good quality Town/gown non-audition orchestra but they don’t have space. He’s resigned to waiting till post-university when, as you say, you can generally  find good amateur orchestras, but will keep auditioning every term and meanwhile has plenty of small ensemble opportunities. It’s just a bit disappointing after he’d been looking forward to the sort of things prospectuses waft at you. Part of the problem is that students do the auditioning so take their own, and this year’s lot were somewhat disorganised (eg the flautist not turning up to the panel auditioning the flute players).

Honestly my main gripe is that outside of the South East state schools have expunged classical music from their activities for ideological reasons at the time that funding has also been cut to the bone at county level too It has made classical music only for an elite. Surely you break down barriers by offering something widely, not by deeming it too exclusive for the masses!

So true. Classical ensembles have been squeezed out of the state sector by misplaced good intentions. Result? It’s become the preserve of the private schools where it flourishes at great expense. My son having only had the chance of musicals at school can’t believe the rich opportunities at university for small ensembles and groups of friends (not studying music). However, even with an ARSM distinction he has yet to break into the orchestras because he doesn’t have school contacts or Youth orchestra contacts (we live in the sticks), or any orchestral experience, so the state-school disadvantage persists.

A brave, generous and really heartening post. What a cheering start to the New Year, and here’s to a special young lady!

8 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

I feel Covid has also changed my outlook on ballet training and opportunities that I might once have considered pursuing.

I still think Covid is changing the dance landscape as it hasn’t finished with us yet. If it makes me more cautious and wary then I’m sure that companies are now having to make space for things to be different.

I do agree, and I think this 'space' could be a really positive thing. Kate mentioned companies that see dancers as potential creatives. Also, there seems to be an increasing tendency to recognise different types of dancer, that thanks to Covid some will not have followed classic career trajectories, and that may produce greater openness in the profession overall. The number of dancers in the UK who very publicly are returning to the top levels after childbirth is another facet of this. This seems pretty encouraging.

It strikes me that ballet training is going in two very different directions at the moment which seem contradictory. One seems more positive than the other. On the one hand, there is the rise of the hot-housed dancing child. I'm sure when my daughter was around 10, there was not the same industry of private classes and intensive training available to pre-vocational school children, and the pressure consequently less. It's understandable when the most competitive schools are recruiting so readily from overseas where this sort of intensive training is clearly producing remarkable young dancers who can 'oust' locally trained dancers. Social media comparisons also have a part to play. I am glad not to have had this pressure at that point.

On the other hand, though, and this chimes with the RBS re-naming of years 7-9, the reality of training for all but the very most outstanding is that it is continuing for longer, with most graduating dancers seeming to move on to a post-graduate year or apprenticeship. I don't think this is just a money-spinning initiative, as the technical level now required of a ballet dancer is absolutely phenomenal and might well require the extra training time. It seems a positive move if the ballet world is starting to recognise the need to give young bodies time to mature and strengthen before extreme demands are placed on them. And perhaps more importantly, young minds too. It would be great to think that new generations of dancers would have been able to commit to the gruelling requirements we now make of vocational trainees at an age much more suitable to make those decisions, and would have been able to combine training from home with a normal family life through more years of childhood. 

As my own DD is very academic,  we chose to keep ballet very much as a hobby. However that hobby became a passion, and she is now determined to give it her best shot at making it a career. She says she knows that the odds are stacked against her for not having attended vocational school before aged 18, but does not regret her path at all as, even though she was pretty unhappy at her academic school, her education and home life have been much richer. Her local teacher is excellent, but we are not geographically well situated, so she trained seriously but for limited hours (pretty similar to what Millicent can access). However, at key points along the way we have had lucky encounters with ballet fairy godmothers who have supported us in the idea that it is possible to succeed without conventional vocational training. Her late entry into intensive training has not left her with the training deficit she expected, she feels mentally very grounded, very independent and ready to face failure (being under-trained, there have been very many disappointments along the way!), and we are amazed that she is proving so able to catch up technically.

This more slow-burn and less disruptive way may be the way forward in the future for some dancers. These dancers are not the ones who will make it straight into the top international companies, but there might be space for them in less well-known companies where they can flourish. She has dance-school friends going into smaller European companies who she hopes to emulate, which makes it look as though a more modest-scale dream might be possible.

To give some longer term perspective, unless our region is vastly atypical, the clear majority of RBS JAs are not in vocational ballet training at age 16. Some find they prefer a broader range of dance styles, others lose interest entirely, others (many) realise it is not going to happen for them. Some go away to vocational school and come back for any of a variety of reasons. Those who are in Upper Schools at 16 still have a very long and uncertain road ahead. As has been said, it’s a lovely experience, and best enjoyed as that, take it one step at a time (excuse the pun), and don’t get sucked in to defining your DC by this achievement or thinking it means more than it does. It’s all too easy to do so, so do your best keep this nice compliment in perspective, have fun, and enjoy every ounce of the glamour! If it turns out that your DC is one of the ones that does have what it takes, you’ll want to be able to say the that journey to success  has been one you have all enjoyed throughout. Quite a challenge, so good luck !

I would think timings are relevant here. Araucaria, you say you don’t want to takes a third A Level, and I do see why you might not want to ‘lose’ a year while you do so. UCAS applications are now closed for September 2022, but you will certainly have good options through clearing with two A stars. I entirely concur that you need to find out if you already have sufficient qualifications, and that the best way to do that is by contacting admissions offices. Don’t be shy about that: it’s what they are there for and they are looking for the best candidates, which you show every sign of being. But you certainly don’t want to be having those conversations once the clearing scramble happens: have them now and get written (email) confirmation to speed things up during clearing.

However, with your grades, you really want to go for top universities, particularly for a very traditional course like History. Many of these (Durham, various London ones, St Andrews etc) don’t go into clearing. Others do. But think about how important your choice of university is for you, as if this means you have to wait for a year anyway, doing an extra A Level looks a lot more attractive.

Finally, the great thing about the UK system is that you will have masses of opportunities to dance whilst at university. My DD, doing a very academic degree, trains for 2 hours a day in her room (thank you lockdown for the discipline) and then does huge amounts with the university dance team and choreographing and arranging performances herself with musical friends. It’s been an incredibly creative year, which means she is keeping the professional dance door every so slightly ajar. 
 

Feel free to DM if you’d like more details.

I wholeheartedly agree! DD arrived in August and has only known the city in lockdowns of various sorts and still loves it! Much helped by the fact that museums have remained open, and retail open more than here. Throughout the city has tried to keep alive, for example with lavish Christmas decorations across large swathes of the centre as a socially distanced replacement for the Christmas markets etc. Shame she has missed cultural events, but open museums and take away food make sightseeing feel very possible, and life is cheap for a European capital.

So in response to Lilya's questions:

Teachers: DD is very impressed with the teachers at BIBS. Their dedication to the students is second to none. One example: the school had to shut for 2 weeks while they all had Covid, and as a result the staff have cancelled the Easter break (one day only!!) to make sure that the students don't miss a single day's training. But more than that, they give plenty of personal corrections and are very demanding. DD feels they have an excellent eye for detail, and her progress has been great. Not all the teachers are gentle all of the time. In fact, compliments are quite sparing but they do exist! You need to be a bit robust, and realise that if teachers can sound a bit negative it is actually because they really want you to improve as much and as quickly as possible. And the school has produced some really lovely dancers with gorgeous technique.

Re competitions, DD can answer that better but it is hard to judge this year as Covid has disrupted this. I will say that when DD, greatly daring, suggested entering an online/video competition she had found herself, they couldn't have been more supportive, fitting in 5 hours of private preparation and time to film her entry in the week they re-opened post-Covid (despite her convalescent wobbly legs!). They are now encouraging her to prepare for competitions next year.

Academics: some students do complete academics on the side, the younger students in particular (DD started at 18 with A Levels completed). One girl is completing a part-time degree. The school is perfectly happy for this, but makes few concessions, I believe.

French classes: this is encouraged. There are cheap evening classes available in the building opposite the school, and the school helps you arrange these. Not free, but highly subsidised.

Other costs: so far, none, apart from uniform (2 leotards and 2 skirts and much washing!) and pointe shoes. The school tries to keep costs down as much as possible. They paid for DD's competition entry, and provided costume. We have EHIC card but no other insurance (that may horrify more savvy dance parents!). Normally the school performs in the theatre opposite and also tours to other towns with productions, but no costs for students for either. This year they hope to perform a full ballet on stage, but if theatres aren't open, they will live-stream the performance to give students live performance experience, also at no extra cost. However, in a normal year, I don't know whether there might be extras such as travel to competitions.

Accommodation: my daughter lives with a lovely host family but cooks for herself. We found this for her. It is very cheap. Others share flats and cater for themselves. Others live with host families who cook for them, and the school offers to arrange this for you. Several youngers students have moved to Brussels with their families! A big family adventure. Most live very close to the school and walk to class,  but you can get a student travel card to get around Brussels for 50 euros for the entire year.

Social activities: officially not this year!!! Well, covid rules do allow up to 4 to meet outside. My DD is not a party girl, so she loves the fact that socialising this year is trips to museums or trips to the park (there are lots of really beautiful parks in Brussels). But in a normal year there are frequent parties. The atmosphere is lovely at the dance school, and the students meet up a lot, although they dance 6 days a week, so get pretty tired. 

Diploma: you don't get a diploma as such. When you are deemed ready, after 1 or 2 years, the director encourages you to start auditioning for companies, normally your final year. Because of Covid and scarcity of contracts, some are in their 4th year/ auditioning for a second year. Once you are part of the BIBS 'family', you can continue training as long as appropriate/ necessary. There are 2 groups, A and B. Group B are younger, and then move to A, and you need to have done a year in A before you would be ready to audition. As a guide, DD started this year aged 18, straight in to A, and has been invited to start auditioning from September (her second year). There are younger girls on their second year in B, but also some her age who are auditioning this year who started in A last year aged 17.

Sorry this is such a long reply!

As a parent who has chosen the non-vocational route I’d say:

a) as has been said, academic schools are no picnic either, although similarly for some they can be.

b) it really isn’t easy trying to keep dance going outside vocational school without sacrificing so much of childhood and family life. We made the decision family life came first, really don’t regret it, and our selective approach still gave space for lovely performance opportunities (NOT festivals), but the ingenuity needed is constant and tiring! And wouldn’t have been possible without the support of an exceptional and imaginative dance teacher.

c) DD has had loads of knock-backs because of insufficient hours dancing, and they are hard too.

We are still, at 19, trying to have our cake and eat it with DD: in vocational school at last but with top university place lined up. Will eke this out as long as it is fun! 
Do I regret the decisions? At the moment 100% not. Without ballet, DD would be in the miserable farce that passes for university this year. Instead she is living a very rich, very happy life abroad and loving the chance to dance at last. An amazing reward. I’m glad we didn’t give dance more space, though. I may change my mind when she is heartbroken that she has to accept defeat, which I suspect will be inevitable. But she will have had so many magnificent experiences, so much fun as well as so much heartache. 

Kate I couldn’t agree more about taking time: both that it is necessary and that it is very possible. (We are colleagues in the broader sense and maybe in the same institution I think from one of your earlier posts though in very different disciplines). I’ve seen this up close with my son who stepped out of university after his first year, took a year out, and went back a transformed character: so focused, so happy. Same course but a totally different student.

Do agree about the rush to achieve the (perceived and artificial) success of grade grubbing, instead of understanding and maturing. And so important: enjoying. I think it indicative  of these wrong approaches to education that online learning has been deemed an appropriate substitute for the university experience which it so very much isn’t, however high quality it often has been. Content coverage completed, marks achieved, everything else lacking. 
So yes, gap years are great and young people excited and curious about the adventure of life is what we should be encouraging. Young dancers are equipped with so many skills for their new adventures, but learning to slow down is a good one to add to their impressive repertoire.

I can give some first-hand information, as my daughter is currently there. I'm happy to DM if you have specific questions, but I found it frustrating not to have some more public information before she left, so here goes.

This year, it has been a fantastic decision, as she has done so much dancing, and Belgium has had a lighter lockdown than many places so they are yet to miss a day's class. The staff are very committed to the students and have a fine eye for detail, and work them very hard. Compliments are hard to come by, but there is a constant stream of energetic corrections. The emphasis is very strongly on classical ballet, though character and contemporary are also taught once a week. The teaching is Vaganova, and you will need to adapt if you come from a different tradition, but the staff understand this. My DD has made enormous progress, but that may be because she was non-vocational before, so the sheer number of hours has had an impact. They dance six days a week, with a short day on Wednesday giving the students a mostly free afternoon, and a half day on Saturday. There are 2 groups, in theory ages 15-17 and 18 - 21, but there are some 18 year-olds in group B and a couple of 17 year-olds in group A, according to stage of training. At 18 and non-vocational, my daughter was surprised to be placed in group A, where she is dancing with students who are auditioning for contracts (such as there are at the moment). This is a fantastic opportunity for her, and has been very challenging in a good way, with exercises pitched at a demanding level. One of the boys has just been successful with getting a contract, so has just left, meaning pas de deux is stretched rather thin, but they do nonetheless have a class two or three times a week. Most of the students come from vocational backgrounds, and it is truly international, with only two or three Belgian students. Teaching is in varying forms of English (!) and some is in French, but there is no automatic assumption that you will understand French.

There are a large number of hours given to repertoire, both solos, usually for competitions, and corps de ballet for regular performances. Since the annual December performance was not possible, the school prepared a professionally filmed and slickly produced video of repertoire extracts as a Christmas present/ compensation, which was sent out to parents for free, which was a nice touch and an acknowledgement of the students' disappointment. Theatres have been re-booked for March, though this may also be problematic. The director, Anderson, is absolutely determined to get the students on stage this year to give a full-length ballet performance. We'll see.

The pluses: real commitment from the staff; excellent value for money; really positive and supportive relationships between the students; being a small independent set-up, there is a lot of room for manoeuvre and flexibility in decision-making, which is being vital this year.

The minuses: because it is a small, independent set-up, you rarely know what the decisions are until the last minute, but this is what protects the room for manoeuvre; you need to be ready to accept quirks; you need to be resilient as praise is scant and corrections freely given.

For my DD, who is taking a very unconventional dance path, it is perfect. For those who have come through a more conventional vocational route, it may be a bit of a culture shock.

For practicalities: Brussels is a great city to live in, and very international. Accommodation is not provided by the school, but can be had cheaply through a fabulous organisation called 'un toit deux ages' (my daughter is paying 2000 euros for the entire year's rent), though many of the students share flats locally. Do feel free to DM me for details.