Derin's Mom

Peanut68 I agree. If larger companies cannot afford strategicly to hire unexperienced dancers, smaller ones should have. So that they have a young blood on stage. They should benefit from that young energy. My DD is so sure about what she wants. She wants to dance and bring her art to people. This shouldn't be this hard to realize.

On 24/04/2024 at 22:55, JanJas said:

Hello Derin's Mom, we were very tempted (with a hefty "scholarship" offered too) but in the end we worked out that when you totalled all the hidden costs we would have to supplement, at the very minimum, £15,000, more likely £20,000 and counting to make it all possible (if our daughter wanted to fly home for Christmas etc), with no guarantee of a job in the end - just (very valid) experience to put on the CV! To be fair all the communications with the company were friendly and positive and if we were in a better position financially we would have taken up the offer. In our naivety we thought that on completion of a Trinity level 6 diploma the next step would be genuine employment. We didn't factor in (at the start of this long journey all those years ago) having to finance yet another year!

So hearing you... My DD is graduating from Dutch National, 3 full years there and 9 before in Istanbul. All full time trainining. a very aspiring ballerina to be and yet no offers till today. I put down my expectation that she will be paid in the coming 1-2 years and also I came in terms with the idea that we have to pay some more time in order for her to gain experience. Even under such circumstances there are no decent options in the way. I am finding it really hard to comprehend this but this is her life and what she wants to do, so full support from our side...

On 06/04/2022 at 18:11, batmanballetshoes said:

I messaged you 

Any up to date information about this ballet group and trainee positions?

On 15/03/2024 at 16:58, JanJas said:

Thank you so much BarbaraH, your information is much appreciated! 

I did wonder about all the possible negative aspects mentioned in that Facebook post!

You have to be so careful, especially when something sounds so good at first!

What a minefield all this is, especially when there are so few opportunities for graduates.

Thank you Jan too, I'll have a search for those posts.

 

 

 

Jan hello, what has your DC decided to do? Any up to date news about Catalunya. And so so true, sooo difficult for all these young people to find even a trainee program.

14 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Not a company as such but I do know that some European schools are less and less enthusiastic to take on British students since Brexit. That was definitely mentioned to my daughter when she was in Europe. It’s not only the visa issues but also a rumbling grumble that UK chose to make things so tricky. It’s not just in the Ballet world but in employment in general. A friend’s daughter has had great difficulty in getting a visa to start work ( not dance) in Spain. They are giving out far less visa’s to the Brits than before.

We as a non european citizen for all our lives, are so accustomed to fight for every step; visas, residency permits, job searches…

and with a very unstable economy, it is very difficult for our artist children to remain in their home country and find a job. This is a very sad truth for them as well, to know that the only job they can get in order to do what they love is outside… This is why it becomes crucial.

On 11/04/2024 at 20:12, Sadielou said:

At the risk of being shouted down I thought I would share a few of my insights, thoughts on the current work / audition situation for our young dancers.

 

As some have mentioned previously there are now far too many schools, just counted 12 in the UK, (and they are just the well know ones), and far too few jobs to accommodate the amount of Graduates filing out of them every year. The ratios involved are never going to add up. So why oh why are “Dancers” on the Gov UK jobs available list ???  Another petition needed I think.

 

Due to the lack of jobs, many vocational colleges have ramped up their training to include an extra Graduate year, and now another new trend has emerged the “Trainee course” and my personal hate “The Junior Company” These courses are only serving to prolong the fate of dancers that are unable to find viable jobs. Yes I hear you scream, but isn’t it better that students are keeping in shape, doing class and gaining valuable experience. No, in my humble opinion it is fleecing parents of money and prolonging the inevitable.

 

Many European Companies have a glut of older dancers, dancers that are entrenched until retirement (who can blame them) so there are very few new contracts up for grabs. Employing new dancers on full time contracts, runs the risk (after two years employment) of having that dancer fill that spot till the bitter end. So Companies having got wise to this have invented “The Junior Company” or “Trainees" to fill their empty Corps spots. Because on these Junior contracts, young dancers can easily be replaced yearly, with no worry of having them wait out their time till retirement. New blood every year for the company for way less money, win win. Having had a Son working for a European Junior Company. I know first hand, that these kids get paid less (some not at all) Yet do the same amount of work and in most cases more than the full time Corps Company members.

 

My other Son after graduation had a “Trainee” contract in a different European Co. He was paid 500 Euros a month, which didn’t even cover his rent. The contract stated that the trainees would be training alongside the full time company dancers and helped into work at the end of the contract. Of course this didn’t happen. On day one the Director gave an introductory speech, his first statement being that  ‘There will be no contracts at the end of this season” A very depressing reality on your first day. There was no “Training” per se and all trainees were thrown into all performances alongside the full company members, even, as in my Sons case doing featured roles. At the end of the contract, there was, as promised no contracts and no help with auditioning elsewhere. Not even a thank you for all your hard work. All that was offered was another trainee year. We nearly capitulated and signed a second contract, but in the end had to come to the sensible decision, that it was simply unaffordable, and delaying the inevitable. We found out later that the Government paid this Company 3000 Euros per month for each trainee of which there were 6. As the trainees themselves only received 500 per month.this meant that  15000 euros monthly went into the company coffers curtsy of these young dancers. What a rip off !

 

I thought that since my dancing days things would have improved, but actually think they have got much worse. At least in my day students were paid to perform with the major companies. I am fed up with hearing of young dancers being expected to work as extras for little or no payment, propping up the major companies who couldn't do the classics without them.

 

Year after year ENB use young dancers as extra’s. ENB have pared down their contracted dancers to such a degree that they simply cannot do any of their classics without an influx of extras. These dancers are treated like second class citizens, not given company dressing rooms, (literally put in a bathroom) unable to use the company Gym or Physio suite and on top of that ENB has the audacity to pay them £100  a week less than the corps company members who are doing the same and in some cases less work. But year after year ENB know dancers will apply as extra’s hoping to gain that illusive full contract. A contract that never materialises as more often than not the Director has already employed a dancer scouted from one or other of the big competitions, or, as I see this year already, a Canadian, Dutch trained dancer scouted at the Grands Audition. Why don't they take from their feeder school, or from the many extra's who already know their productions. These students / extras must be good enough as they are already performing for paying audiences under the ENB banner. RB & BRB are even worse as they don't even bother to pay their students. Once again poor parents, are unwittingly subsidising these productions, by providing a free workforce and on top of that paying outrageous ticket prices, to see their kids on stage. Please remember parents that the Directors of these companies are all being paid extremely well and that none of these big productions could be staged without this poorly paid /free work force. I think this is a scandal that badly needs addressing.

 

In the UK we have all been lead to believe that training at a well known and respected vocational school is the way to launch our children on the job ladder. However from all the replies, & comments on this thread this is obviously not the case. As Parents we are now expected, to finance private coaching, extra graduate /trainee years, professional photo’s, videos, competition fees / audition fees (Grands audition, YAGP Job fair, and several small companies charge a fee)  costumes, travel and accommodation. Along with subsidising the big companies by providing living & travel expenses for a child working for free or very little. An impossibility for many families. Ballet has sadly once again become a career only the well off can afford. If your child is not at a top feeder school and one of the very few on the fast track to the adjoined company. It seems that private tuition and the chance to perform on the competition circuit is the only way to bag a good contract. I can think of several boys and girls that are now in top jobs whom on paper do not conform to the stipulations on their current companies audition notices. I am not saying that these kids do not deserve their contracts just that if they hadn’t had the opportunity and finances to perform on the competition circuit, they may not have even have been invited to an in person audition. The cost of competitions has already been discussed on this thread. There was an article in Pointe magazine totting up the costs, See link https://pointemagazine.com/ballet-competitions-101/  This article was written in 2018, so imagine the costs now, eye watering !

 

Although we as a family are very lucky to have both kids working, the pain and angst involved on the audition circuit has at times been over whelming. What is the answer, is there one ? What can we as parents do to change this toxic audition / work culture ? As parents we all want our kids to achieve their dreams, but sometimes to quote the old cliche you have to be cruel to be kind, and know when enough is enough. Sadly in most cases it turns out the rewards at the end of the Ballet Rainbow are way too few to counteract the, hard work, expense and inevitable disappointments. Would I do it all again ?  On reflection, honestly no. 

Thank you… so well put.

As a mother of a young woman who is at the very start of her career, I am reading each comment carefully; and saddened to hear the realities of this art form on a proffesional level.

and on another scale in the midst of a war-fed world, the art is less and less important to many country budgets. So it means even less jobs in the future ahead.

Yet, I also carry a hope for my DD (and other young children) that there will be a spot somewhere where she will be welcomed and be happy to perform her artwork. This maybe a small environment or a not well known place but yet honors the art form and allows the dancers to do what they are trained to in soo many years.

ı understand from all written that we will be supporting our DC financially in years to come… I hope this doesnt make them feel useless and draw them away from their proffession.

31 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

I don't have offspring looking for ballet/dance jobs but am very familiar with this scenario from friends who went through it. There are unfortunately a lot of dance schools, a lot of very good graduates and not enough jobs or dance companies in the UK and around the world, and that's always been the case.

 

I'd advise parents and graduates to expect a lot of rejections when starting out, and not to pay much heed to the "too tall, too short, wrong whatever" feedback- if the feedback doesn't pinpoint anything to do with the actual dancing or technique, it usually means that she (or he) was very good but so were 30 (or more) other dancers and they only had the funds to hire one, so a lot of very good candidates will have to be rejected for no good reason unfortunately.

 

One approach that some have said reduces the pressure at auditions was to go to them and use the auditions as an opportunity to perform for someone new (even if it was barre work only or even if just tendus) and not to care if you get the job or not.

 

Somehow, being under less pressure made them stand out from the other equally good candidates, who looked too anxious or too eager to please, and led to a job being offered! That might work for some.

 

Best of luck to all the DDs and DSs auditioning for jobs! 

thank you 🙂 if only they receive invitations for auditions... 

but yes, trying for almost everything is the only way to go forward.

All comments are fair and correct. In my DD's case actually she started her education back home, trained really hard from the age of 11 full time. Then she recieved offers from good schools in Europe. Then she took one and moved on. And as far as she told me, education is really good and she knew she developed well in these final years. So, what happens now to not herself but her classmates is very heart breaking. And honestly I do not think that the number of students in the school were only accepted for financial reasons. 

It is probably simply the fact that company vacancies are so less than the graduates all round each year.

Plus, classically trained students fear to continue in contemporary right away since they think the return to classical will be so difficult in years to come. So this holds them back from certain jobs as well.

1 hour ago, BarbaraH said:

I hear the same at other schools. Apparently one of the comments that is most common is that "they are too young". 

I have the impression that it's normal nowadays to first do another 2 years of junior company/graduate training somewhere before starting a paid position.

 

yes exactly, but the situation in Europe is; there are few junior co.s and no graduate schools after the age of 18. US is a bit more advantageous in this option.

7 minutes ago, Pointetoes said:

It's not just happening to dancers, it's across the board in the world of performing arts. My daughter graduated from one of the top drama schools as an Actor Muso ( actor, musician, singer and dancer) she has had loads of auditions over the last few years but only a handful of jobs, this goes right across her year group from her drama school and others .

There are less jobs around and the writers strike plus covid is still taking its toll.

 

Friends of hers who graduated from upper school/ballet all went on and joined junior companies.

 

Sadly its a very tough world for all in the world of performing arts, they have to learn to be tough and resilient 

I understand. And I assumed as such. Sadly though not even junior companies offer places well enough. She'll stay resilient as you mentioned. Good luck to your DD as well.

Hello all. 

I want to start a topic where ballet parents may put their own feedback. 

My DD is graduating from one of the top ballet schools in Europe, she is a good and clever dancer. Her class is academicly talented. But yet within the past months almost none of them has been offered a place. 

What is going on in the dance world, are there so few places in companies, and for that reason are they looking into dancers with very precise details? These young people are at the very start of their careers and they feel so vulnarable by getting rejection over rejection.

Any suggestions from experiences?

2 hours ago, Lifeafterballet said:

Hi Derin’s Mom,

If you google Houston Ballet Academy Fees and go to the Professional program you will see the tuition costs for Professional 1 and 2 and HB2. $8,200 per year for HB2. Then scroll down and you can see all the additional costs like accommodation etc. You are right that it is part of the academy. They dance in the same studios as the other levels. I believe the students get the opportunity to dance with the company as students in U.K. ballet schools do but i bet like RB, BRB and ENB they don’t pay them. 
They do mention a stipend payment. My son’s US junior company gave him a stipend payment which worked out at $1,000 per month. He couldn’t live financially independent with this. And this was pre pandemic. But there were no tuition fees to pay like there is at HB2. 
If your child has completed ballet training and graduated then this will be another 2 years of training and money on top with no guarantee of employment. Having experienced my son dancing in the US with the very short seasons, visas, insurance and not being paid all year round I personally wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.
Its so hard. Especially when our children have completed their training and just want to continue to dance. Wishing you the very best of luck with your choices x
 

Thank you very much. All helpful and i will be thinking over it.

On 01/02/2024 at 00:36, Lifeafterballet said:

My two graduate children both did invited auditions and individual auditions within company class in the US and Europe. The company class ones were I feel the ones with the most likelihood of getting a contract. Ds got his first contract from an invited large audition and his second from being invited to join company class after the season had started. Dd flew to the US for a week and managed to squeeze in 3 auditions, all in the same state but that still required an internal flight. She did that solo at 19.
Planning is key. Getting in as many as you can in one trip, being cheeky and asking for company class. Dd got offers of a trainee, not paid, and a contract in her rounds. All just before Covid. 
She attended Houston Ballet Academy on a short term offer from YAGP and didn’t like it. The standard of their senior students was very high and the teaching was excellent but it was Houston itself and the lack of freedom, not getting to go outside much that she didn’t like. There were a lot of restrictions on students for their safety. 
Ds was in a Studio Company in the US for a season, cut short by Covid. It was very expensive. The visa, the flights, deposit for an apartment, health insurance, transport etc etc 

He got paid $1,000 per month. But not over Christmas when they were closed. The season is August to May and then it’s off you go home with no income for 3 months to reapply for your visa again and start the paying out. 
His European contract is paid all year round. He’s been lucky in that it has paid enough for him to survive on and he hasn’t had to leave due to a visa expiring. 
It’s a minefield. But you learn quickly. Especially when you have to do it twice like we did 😅 

Never again 🤣 

 Dear Lifeafterballet,

My daughter received an invitiation to HB2 in GrandAudition, and i understand HB2 is a part of the Academy. We are not familiar with US schools so I understand that students (still students) will be having an education of 2 more yeras where in Europe this is mostly under the name of junior company. But in Houston Ballet this HBA2 is a semi-school semi company programme. If she accepts and starts then I understand we will be paying for 2 more years. Do they get a certain amount of money if they are connected to company and attend the shows? What should we expect as expenses... this is bugging me.

If there are people to enlighten me, it will be more than appreciated.

The school, the dorms (or the student finds an accomodation on their own etc) all are a big question mark for me at the moment.

Just seen your message. We are going through tough times in Turkey due to earthquakes, and so I missed a lot of notices lately. I guess her audition is over, hope all went well.

Derin is today happy in Dutch National Ballet Academy and yes she was in Paris while she was only 14. She could only stay there for 4 months and returned back before the pandemic broke.

I see that your DD is almost 18 (so is my DD) and yes that will surely help her feel more stabile. I understand she will be in classical ballet but in almost the last year (DNSM3 or 4).

Just let me know if there is more I can help today.

Emotional readiness is a huge issue, and not every child grows the same.

Our first seperation was at age 14, and DD went away to Paris. being the only international student she suffered so much that we ended the process in 4 months. But the side effects were a lot, she took consultation for a year. This was the wisest thing we did as parents. Not forcing her to a stage where things would not be solved and let her take support.

At age 16 she felt ready and moved away once again to a school that was more up to her expectations. Thankfully it worked this time.

Depression signs should not be missed. A homesickness is possible for a few months but if it rules her emotions then this is not OK.

And even though she continues, it is possible to seek for proffessional help sometimes, an online support would clarify things better. Cause being there by her/his side as a parent is not enough sometimes.

Best wishes...

Definitely advice Bloch Proforma B. 

15 hours ago, ba11erina said:

Does anyone know how auditions work with any of the schools in Germany? Are any auditions hosted in the UK or can people apply by video?

During Covid it was through video auditioning, but they are doing it live now. You can check their websites for dates. You usually apply and send a video wrt their requirements, they either call you to a certain audution date or invite to school for a week. And decide whether she/he is a fit or not.

My DD is in Dutch NBA and since we are out of-EU zone we pay quite a big amount compared to EU students 😞. The major issue with some European schools is that they do not have accomodation and hence apartment renting is more costly than the school fee. Berlin and Hamburg are exceptions in dormitory opportunities.

On 29/04/2022 at 19:33, Tuliprose said:

Does anyone know if high insteps are a must for vocational ballet school? My DC is 12 and recently was told (by a teacher) her feet aren't really the right feet, especially for certain schools. My dc is now a little bit downhearted and I want to help. Do children get into ballet schools with feet that don't have high insteps? My dc was a RBS JA and other associate programmes.... My ballet knowledge isnt great.. so not much help 🙈 I am told dc has good turmout, deep plie and artistry, not sure if this would counter act the feet though? Anyone have any advice/knowledge 😊 just want to manage expectations, do companies take dancers with different shape feet? 🥰

let me tell you my opinion. My DD is 16 and she is in a very prestigious ballet academy in Europe, she has been training ballet since 6 and did not have a high instep. But her turnout, alignment and artistry always led her way. The issue with the feet is not the look but the ability to mobilize easily. By constant and clever exercises any muscle grows, including the tiny ones in the foot. And once it becomes strong and flexible then she will feel secure in point work. There is no obstacle for her to grow into being a professional ballet student and eventually a dancer. Sometimes some teachers who are not much aware of the ballet environment up to date can lead students negatively. Always be open for other prof. opinions. And support your daughter to cleverly work on her feet. Not every dancer is born with ALL pretty elements of ballet, some is natural some is earned.

Lena,

My DD is in Dutch National Ballet Academy, she is 16 and this is her 1st year there, away from home.

We are not EU citizens and yes school fee is more expensive than for EU citizens. But actually, cost of living is the difficulty since there is no dorm offered. But actually, we know other girls in different cities around Europe and mostly costs are quite similar. 

Happy to answer if u have further questions.

On 01/11/2021 at 23:58, Kanangra said:

Sadly there is no easy way to sew ribbons onto Gaynor. I know some people have done it on a sewing machine but I'd be reluctant to try that or recommend.

 

My daughter wore GMs (she was actually a Gaynor Girl which was fantastic! free pointe shoes for a year!) and we found they were a fantastic shoe. Because of all the different customisable options they are terrific for hard to fit feet. DD had very narrow feet with bunions, so she had a wider box but narrow heel. The stuff about not being able to roll through is a nonsense though - if they are "springing up" on pointe it means the shank is too hard. A more supple shank will allow the feet to work through, and because they are not made of traditional materials they don't soften. As a parent I loved that they lasted a long time, usually a whole term. 

very similar feet of my DD as well, and was happiest in gaynors but her current school does not allow GMs... again stuck with various different brands.

hello megan

how is your search going for your DS? My DD who is almost 16 is offered a place at Dutch National Ballet Academy as well. We had an unpleasant experience some time ago in Paris and this time she is very cautious of where she will be heading to.

We understand that the school environment and friendships are great but accomodation and related chores will be a task.

Have you found your solution yet?
I'll be happy to hear your about it. And, to which grade wil your DS will be going to, my DD will be NBA 7.

On 20/09/2020 at 17:32, Aurora3 said:

@Derin's Mom, can´t she finish her education in Istanbul conservatoire or is it not so good?
I will get Grishko 3007 and Dream Pointe 2007 next week to try on! We will see how these fit!

 

The education is good. Her wish to go abroad sooner is to create a path to proffesion in europe.

Let us know about Gr 3007 as well please 🙂

On 22/09/2020 at 08:55, Kanangra said:

Derin's Mum, was she chosen? My DD was a Gaynor Girl 2018-19. 

oh unfortunately no. Noone from her region...

5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

Hello Derin's Mom and welcome back!

 

We've had a very recent thread that may be of use.

 

 

Here's the Modibodi UK website:

 

https://www.modibodi.co.uk/pages/period-underwear/

 

When I googled just a quick search also brought up equivalent sites for America and Australia so there may well be other.

Thank you and hello back.