Harwel

You might benefit from joining ‘notapushymum’ and follow along with the ‘training’ thread.  Much more focused on MT and acting.  I can’t help directly with junior classes but my son is on the BA MT in second year at GSA.  From our experience it is a wonderful place to study.  Fabulous for MT - widely accepted as one of the top 3 schools for MT training at degree level (alongside Arts Ed and Mountview). 
 

Whenever I have seen the junior students they appear to be having a wonderful time and of course they have the use of the fabulous facilities and get to see all the wonderful shows that are put on throughout the year from all the acting, MT and actor musician final year students.  Very inspiring place. 

Look at MT degree courses.  My youngest son at GSA (Guildford school of acting). Did 2 years dance at Emil Dale academy on their BTECH course. He did Ballet to grade 2 at 7yrs old and never danced after that.  Always sang and acted though. 
 

Best MT courses to look at (open days and summer shows this year worth exploring), GSA and Arts (probably some of the others do too)  do summer schools too which might be worth looking at and pre audition workshops. 

GSA

Mountview

Arts Ed

Urdang

Bird College

Laine Theatre Arts

Wilkes Academy

Royal Welsh 

Scottish conservatoire

There are literally loads more but the above are all very highly rated with great industry links and progression into the profession. Boys do not have to have done masses of dance, they just have to be trainable and have some natural ability.  They will have to be able to sing very well though.  My son was grade 8 at 15, however, grades are not required just a really good voice and if he can get some excellent singing lessons while doing his A levels it would give him chance to explore that.  Never too late to pursue a passion.  
 

If your DD is desperate to go away to vocational school and she can’t get the training outside of that then it’s worth trying Hammond and Tring.  However, with MT there really isn’t any need to go away to train from 11 years old. 
 

My youngest son is currently training on degree course at GSA on MT course.   He stayed at our local secondary school but had fantastic training from his wonderful drama and singing teachers outside of school.   He started dancing at 15 when he said he wanted to be a professional actor/singer (he never wanted to do it earlier as his elder brother was training to be dancer so he did swimming and taekwondo).  He got away with starting dancing late because he’s a boy and luckily for him he has a lot of natural ability. 
 

I do think it is important to do a more intensive 6th form though as the competition is so strong.  My son went to Emil Dale for 6th form doing BTECH in  performing arts. There are some other good colleges offering this type of training - look at Tring, Arts Ed, arts1, EDA and there are others, but I would avoid local colleges that are general education facilities offering a BTECH in PA (we did that for 6 months prior to the first covid lockdown and they were pretty rubbish even though they had good ratings - they just can’t compete with the professional colleges for teaching hours, quality of teaching and progression stats).  Luckily, my son started at the local college, and  I realised very quickly it wasn’t good enough and he had his place secured for EDA before the Christmas break. He went to EDA with grade 8 singing and grade 7 drama and 1 year of jazz dance training. Lots of performing under his belt from festivals, a good weekend drama school who did fabulous shows and was a member of NYMT. 
 

His year at EDA were incredibly talented and all but 3 of the 43 students got offers of degree or diploma courses to continue their training (I think 2 dropped out Along the way and one decided at the end they wanted to do something else).  Nearly all of his current class mates either did full time performing arts courses at 6th form or did a foundation course (EDA, Arts Ed, GSA, etc) after A’levels. 2 were at the dance school of Scotland, one went to White lodge but mostly they did local secondary schools. 

43 minutes ago, Drdee said:

@Harwel I agree with the degree apprenticeship route. Did your son live at home during that time? This is one of challenges of retraining and what is available geographically. I am sure the organisation is richer as a result.

No he didn’t live at home.  He has been renting in London since he was 19.  We are 130 miles away.  Shared houses, flats and sometimes with friends, sometimes with strangers.  After 4 years he is more settled in a flat share with a friend from work.  It’s not been easy. But he has been able to find it all himself with his wages. 

The further education issue is very complicated and there are certainly no hard and fast rules.  Each case must be investigated on its own merits. My son left Tring with 2 A’levels.  Because of the change in his circumstance he did them both in 1 year (his 3rd year of upper school) .  One was through school, the other was distance learning.  He then got a degree apprenticeship for a construction management company.  They required so many UCAS points but the 2 A’levels were not enough - he actually got onto the course because of his level 6 diploma in dance which he had just completed. We still laugh at the fact he qualified to train as a surveyor with his dance diploma.  After 4 years of working full time and studying he has just passed his degree.  It has been an incredibly hard path to tread, but I believe his tenacity, perfectionism, incredible work ethic and desire to succeed has all come from his dance training.  
 

There is no excuse for the horrible treatment that does go on in dance training - not for everyone - but it does exist.  But there is always a way out with the correct support and love and understanding from good family.  The future can be very bright for these beautiful young dancers in whatever path they end up taking, as the transferable skills are very highly sought after in so many other walks of life.  My son was told last week by one of the senior partners of his company that when he heard he was getting a ballet dancer he was very sceptical, but it turns out that he is ‘my best guy’ and he would love to find my like my son. 
 

I would highly recommend seeking out degree apprenticeships if at all possible as the degree is funded by the company and by the time they qualify they have years worth of experience and no debt. 

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

As an ex Elm from the 1980’s era a while back I thought it’d be interesting to see if there weee any ex alumni groups out there….found one on Facebook with a photo including recognised dancers  of my year group (clearly the mid 80’s in shiny catsuits & ankle warmers!!) 

The make of the group?

The Elmhurst Survivors….!!

says it all….

And I thought everyone but me was having a great experience there!! 

One of my dear friends trained at Elmhurst in the early 80’s.  She told me that one of her teachers told her she danced like a flea on a drum and that her legs looked like they had been put on backwards.  Just a couple of choice comments made to a 12 year old. 

57 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

I am so sorry your daughter suffered in this way.  I have a son who told us he thought he was ‘broken’ when at ballet school. It was heartbreaking to watch the pain in such a gifted, beautiful boy! 
he is now very happily in a different career and thriving but we often talk about both of our experiences from our professional ballet training - nothing much changed in 40 years!  
 

I wish your daughter all the best in her new adventure and the further away from the trauma she gets the easier it will become, but be prepared for it to raise its ugly head at the most odd times and with certain triggers.  I still get triggered in certain situations and I’m 56! 

I have read this whole thread with great interest, I also watched the documentary.  I am so sorry for all the hurt that accompanies ballet training, it really is the most insidious, mind twisting, toxic environment you can imagine.  Ballet is so beautiful to watch but what goes on behind closed doors is totally shocking and almost unbelievable.  
 

For the parents on here that are trying to ‘parent blame’, get the other side of the story, suggest ‘it’s just sour grapes’, please just stop talking about something you clearly do not understand.  You are not helping the literally hundreds of dancers who have been damaged by this toxic culture. You are gaslighting them - listen with open ears and hear the horror that clearly exists.  I have heard it for years - oh it won’t happen to my child, oh well mine is special, oh mine is so mentally strong, well that happened to yours because they are just not talented enough, well it can’t be that bad, I have taught my child to stand up for themselves.  
 

Well that is all hogwash if you have a child at boarding school surrounded by competitive children, divisive teaching, Unsympathetic house parents, limited parental contact, a child’s self belief wrapped up in what they are doing, a perfectionist, hard working, diligent child who is eager to please those who have power and control over them.  
 

For the couple of parents here that are saying their child is at a school where this catagorically doesn’t happen and their children are incredibly happy - well amazing, fantastic, please share which school they are at as clearly lessons can be learnt from their teaching methods.  
 

There are so many accounts of the harm done it is truly heart breaking.  Truly beautiful dancers who have been horribly bullied by teachers.  Some of these are students who have been chosen by RBS at 16 and then crushed the moment they walk through the doors. Why? The young lady who this happened to in the documentary is not the only one it’s happened to!  Surely they can not be dismissed as ‘not talented enough’, ‘wrong physique’, they’ve just been chosen by one of the world’s most prestigious schools! 
 

I have been taught (40 years ago) by 2 very well known, highly regarded teachers from Royal - worst classes I ever took - they were masters at cruel, unkind and divisive training.  And guess what, they are still teaching, still in positions of power and apparently revered!  Whenever is see their names I physically feel anger and disgust.  
 

My son knew Jack - I am so very sorry for his parents loss.  

6 hours ago, Dancemum23 said:

Thank you for this Harwel! The junior conservatoire in musical theatre looks ideal for her and she could apply next year for a Sept 2024 start when she will be in Year 7. I’ll keep an eye out for when the audition registration opens. 

Oh I’m so glad the info was useful.  All the best to her in her journey. 

28 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Glad to see your son is still involved in Dance Harwel. 
I can’t offer advice on Musical Theatre courses there but Guildford is a great place to be….I spent the first 18 years of my life just outside Guildford so it was a regular Saturday shopping trip for us! And trips to Yvonne Arnaud Theatre. 
 

I know the London Studio Centre mentioned above is good or certainly used to be I know a couple of dancers who trained there and later danced in Phantom of the Opera! 

Hi,  this is my younger son.   My eldest is now a project manager for a construction management company!   The hips never fully recovered from the 2 surgeries he had to have and he is very happy with his new life path (though there were some very dark times along this path). My youngest has always been an actor/singer but has a natural gift for dance that he discovered when he was about 16.  Funny how life works out.  I hope you are well. 

If she wants MT then look into the associate/junior conservatoire classes run by GSA (Guildford school of acting) held on Saturday mornings at their studios at the University of Surrey.  One of our top MT colleges.  My son is on the MT degree there and it’s a fabulous place.  No idea if it’s anywhere near you but well worth a look. 

8 hours ago, Ondine said:

I'm an old cynic... offered a place  before she went to US for the YAGP finals and possibly won something and questions asked about why she wasn't already at WL? 😏

 

Whatever the journey, it's great she's got a place in the company through hard work and talent and wish her well.

 

Totally agree.  She has been incredibly determined and knew how to get to her end goal - that is a special talent all in itself. It will be lovely to watch her journey and wish her all the very best for a happy career - wherever it may take her.  

Also very interesting that she auditioned every year for WL but only got in through the YAGP.  Clearly not through lack of talent, potential or physical attributes. 

Just to say, I am very pleased to see Scarlett Harvey - graduate of US RB last year (British trained - Elmhurst for 3 years. WL for 2, US RB for 3) was a scholar into RB last year has been promoted to artist this year.   Fantastic achievement for her.  

Those that know, know.  Unfortunately everyone else who treads this path has to find out the hard way.  I find some of the worst people to understand the truth of the training situation are avid ballet lovers who spend hours watching and admiring ballet but resolutely refuse to believe the hundreds of accounts of those of us who have lived this fiasco either by our own experiences and/or our children.  
 

They look at the very few (hand full) that have succeeded and say that’s ok, the others can’t have been gifted enough, wanted it enough, worked hard enough.  Or you’re exaggerating it because you’re bitter, jealous, disgruntled.  In truth they have absolutely no idea and are actually not in any position to comment - true case of gaslighting.  The parents and students who have experienced this type of treatment at the hands of people who are in a position of power over our vulnerable youngsters should be taken seriously. 
 

Ballet is beautiful, unfortunately not everyone within the ballet world is as beautiful.  Far too many accounts of mental abuse (bullying, ignoring, gaslighting and the list goes on) to be taken so lightly. 
 

I have seen a number of absolutely beautiful young dancers ousted from their training in the most cruel and inexplicable way.  The mental scars are there for years and years.  When is enough enough before something is done to change this dreadful treatment? 

This was a really lovely summer school that my DS attended a couple of years running.  The home stays worked out really well and he met some lovely people.  The classes were always good with great teaching and a lovely atmosphere. DS loved the show, a chance for everyone to really connect with their love of dance and show what they had learnt.  
 

Well worth it! 

2 hours ago, Birdy said:
 

I do think the excessive assessing out can have an effect on the perception of the quality of training sometimes. Does Royal Ballet really have the absolute best training, or does the fact that they assess out even after two years of upper school skew things? Are their graduates all getting contracts because their training is the best, or because their reputation for placement allows them to recruit only the best and then at the last year cut those they aren’t convinced will succeed?

 

 

spot on!  

I have read this thread with great interest.  Thank the Lord, I am no longer attached to the dance world personally.  After a lifetime (over 50 years) of being attached to it in some way (mother a classical dancer then teacher, me training vocationally and having to stop through injury, my son training at vocational school and also having to stop through injury - also have to say both my son and I have thrived outside the dance world - that determination, attention to detail and work ethic needed to dance never leaves you!). 
 

I think the changes RBS have made to their assessment procedures are to be commended.  Something needed to change  as the process over the years has been horrific!  We personally know young people who where assessed out under very traumatic circumstances and they had no idea it was coming.  We also know many who have been assessed out and gone on to other vocational schools, back to old dance schools and continued to make professional careers as dancers - others who where happy to change completely and gone on to be lawyers, doctors and many many other wonderful things.  Are there scars? Yes. Would they wish they had never entered the ballet world? No.  I have been quite affected by my time dancing - a life time of disordered eating which started at 14 and a deeply cynical view of the dance world.  
 

Do I still love ballet? Absolutely! Do I wish I was a prima ballerina of a world renowned company? You bet I do.  Would I do it all again? 100% yes.  Do I want my children to go through it? No!  Never wanted my son to do it, but the opportunities he got through dancing and his school led him to his amazing career that he has now, which he is absolutely flying with.  My younger son never wanted to dance but is a fabulous singer/actor he is at full time MT college and the dance teachers love him and keep telling him they wish he’d danced from a young age as he would have been fantastic at ballet! 
 

I wish everyone who’s child is on this path the very best of luck.  It is TOUGH.  Physically and emotionally.  I hope you all get the support you need and can give support to those around you through the hard times (everyone will have them and some hide it better than others).  
 

To the new parents whose children are just starting this journey. I hope your children continue to love their journey and you as parents have the strength to make the right decisions on behalf of your child - you need to be their advocate, you need to see the unhealthy signs and you have to stand up to the established view for the sake of your child’s health - it will be required at some point along the path.  Have your eyes 100% open - the only person that has your child’s best interests at heart is you.  Do not believe the hype, the very smooth perfectly scripted sales pitch, trust your instincts. 
 

3 hours ago, FlexyNexy said:

I think for MT or Actor is more important to have good agent rather what school you went to. 
Client of mine at work has a son who graduated in Manchester UNI with English and Drama degree and now is A listed actor in USofA. Many would recognise him. When I spoke to his dad, he insisted that he has a solid degree before he goes to his acting. In their culture they insist to have academic degree of some sort before they follow any passions and talents. After degree from Manchester UNI he has tried to join RAF as a pilot, but then decided to pursue his passion and went to Bristol Old Vic Theatre School as an adult. What i hear when speaking with his dad, is who you know and having a good agent is important. No one asks for his degree.

I’m not sure if I’ve misunderstood, but if your friends son trained at Bristol old Vic then it really wouldn’t matter about his degree from Manchester as he’s got acting training from one of the best drama schools in the country, that training will open doors to the best agents. He’s clearly very talented, his face fits and he has exemplary training - a case of destiny calls.  What’s for you won’t pass you by. 

Happy to offer any advice.  Gone through the ballet route with DS1 now the MT route with DS2.  DS currently at EDA BTECH yr 2 and going through auditions for degree courses at moment. Feel free to PM me. I no longer like to post openly but happy to chat privately.  Good luck with the whole process. 

8 hours ago, bangorballetboy said:

Darcey Busell went to Arts Ed.  It’s included in the bio on her webpage.

 

I’d take the rest of Harwel’s post with a pinch of salt.  For example, Joseph Sissens’ and Olivia Cowley’s ROH bios state that they went to Tring before the RBS as did Rupert Pennefather’s when he was an RB principal.

Tring used to be Arts Ed (I am happy to be corrected if she actually attended the London school).  I just know that she said it wasn’t part of the narrative to a friend of mine. 
 

Again. The point I was making is that not all the dancers list their complete training for lots of reasons.  A previous poster said look at their bio - it isn’t always the best place to base an opinion on where someone trained.  I also know people that do not list it as it’s not something they wish to share.  Take it with a pinch of salt if you like - but keep an open mind and realise that many people train in many different places and only those with all the correct physical attributes (and everything else we know is required) will make a classical career, wherever they train. 

8 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I'd always thought it was because there is very limited space in the programmes for dancer bios!

I am sure there are various reasons.  I also know some that miss out some of their training because they didn’t enjoy that part of their training. 
 

My point was that, just that it is not in the bio in the program does not mean the dancer didn’t train somewhere else. 

I always used to think that company members put all their training down.  I later realised that this is not always the case.  There are several members of BRB and RB that do not list Tring as part of their training.  I was shocked to realise that Darcey Bussell had started her training at Tring before moving over to RB school (admittedly not for long) but she was encouraged not to publicise it as it was not ‘part of the narrative’.  How many others is it ‘not part of the narrative’?  Also, you have to understand the incredibly fragile egos of some dancers who will not want it known that they did not make it all the way through the RB school, but had part of their training at Tring.  
 

The training at Tring can be anything your child has the capacity for. 

What a lovely outcome so far.  I hope your DS continues to thrive and excel in all that he does. 

Absolutely anything they want to do!  If they are happy doing what they love, with like minded people (especially important for dancing boys - teenage peers are not often very understanding or kind in the general secondary school population), they will thrive. And the discipline, work ethic and self composure can be applied to absolutely anything.