Kate_N

I had tendonitis, and saw a sports physio who also deals with dancers. I'm guessing I'm older than your DD (a lot older ) but I'd second the advice of rest, and physiotherapy.

My physio checked my gait, checked my flexibility and muscle tension throughout the whole leg and hip/pelvic girdle. and recommended some stretches, including the "Alfredson heel drops" - on a stable step (I use my stairs at home), with heels hanging over, dropping for 5 counts, up on 2 counts (I changed it to 5 and 3 as I count in 8s being a dancer!). 3 lots of ten heel drops, twice a day. As I got stronger, I was recommended to do them on one foot only.

But it's a STRONG exercise -- don't do it unless the physiotherapist recommends it.

My PT also checked that I wasn't rising up by gripping my toes. He said that a lot of dancers did that, and it contributed to the tightness in the insertion point of the Achilles tendon.

His homework to me at my final session was to dance without tension! The heel drops are tough, but that homework is far far harder!

Back from a lovely holiday with a rather spasmed back -- I'm hoping ballet class tonight will help me stretch it out! Proff that holidays are not necessarily good for me.

I've been reading about all the summer workshops that have been held for adult students -- great stuff. I must try to plan for doing one next year. But like others, I'm a bit puzzled about a desire to learn the exact repertoire before attending a workshop. It seems to defeat the purpose of attending the workshop to work with a specific teacher, learning a specific piece of choreography.

And also, I've long been taught that, as a dancer, you need to be prepared to change the way you do things for a specific teacher or choreographer. There's no necessarily "right" way of doing some steps or choreography. Although there are many many wrong ways ...

For example, in my basic beginners class (the only one I can attend regularly at the moment) the others are learning the en dedans pirouette. I learnt it with a fouetté leg into the retiré, but we're doing it with the leg going straight from the lunge to retiré at the back of the knee. I find it a bit weird, as I"ve been using the fouetté technique for years! But that's what the teacher is asking for, so that's what I do.

I think maybe, Michelle, that you're quite new to ballet & the theatre/performing arts more generally? I was literally brought up in the theatre, so it's interesting to see the responses of a newcomer to my world -- I think that your comment about being "plain speaking" is probably something you need to be a bit careful about. The arts world runs on recognition of and  respect for talent and knowledge -- it's not the business world! Although in my day job I'm quite a senior manager, in the ballet class, I am the student, and my teacher is the teacher, and I respect that relationship.

BalletRocks, you're doing a great job of giving information about the KNT workshop -- I'm from the north west but currently exiled to the West Country, and I wish that when I lived up north, KNT had been in existence. I must try to get there for next year's workshop.

Toi toi toi & merde to you all, and please come back & report on what you learnt for those of us about to go back to work <grumpy face>

Commiserations, It sounds like you're doing everything in a very responsible measured way.

But I suppose that a dance shop proprietor has to be very careful nowadays - we seem to be in the middle of another fad for ballet as "fashionable" and there are all sorts going in to buy pointe shoes (although I guess  the giveaway might be calling them "toe shoes"). I know that all over the internet (on sites less reputable than this one) there are questions about "How soon can I go on pointe?" from adult student beginners, and there are some horrifying vids on YouTube of people "teaching" themselves pointe work, or going on pointe after a short time and only a class a week or no classes, just learning from a book or a video -- all that sort of thing. I'm sure you've seen it, and shuddered.

So maybe the dance shop owner and/or fitter was being super-careful about someone unknown to them coming in? But that does not mean that they should say such things about your teaching ... That's so rude. And counter-productive, as I doubt you or your student will use that shop again!

Great that you were back! I had a lovely class last night, ad my excellent teacher is starting to look at the new year's schedules (the studio "school year" starts in September). She thinks she'll be able to put on an advanced class on Friday nights -- a great way to start the weekend!

Have a great time at all the intensives going on: I'm very busy this summer, but am starting to plan to attend at least one of them next year. There are now so many to choose from which is wonderful.

how interested or impressed are top universities by a pupil's extra-curricular activities? I know your Dd is doing a very competitive course and must have had fabulous academic grades, but I wonder how much of an edge her dance experience gave her. I did read somewhere that top universities discount hobbies like music and , simply because it puts children from less well off backgrounds at a disadvantage.

University academic here at a "top" university (whatever that means <grin>) teaching in a humanities subject - we really don't look at the level of achievement, and it certainly wouldn't change our opinion around grades. You still need those A grades at A Levels for us. But we still interview, so if there were something pertinent in the personal statement about the way ballet interacted with the academic subjects (eg a sense of history, learning and appreciating a complex art) for a relevant course, I might ask about that, and probe a little. But the applicant would have to make relevant and pertinent connections. I'm not impressed by a Distinction at Grade 8 etc etc etc I don't teach in a Music degree however; I think there, the achievement of a particular level is indicative of competency for the study of the practical elements of a Music degree.

And of course a BA in any kind of dance is going to be different again. But I imagine the audition will be crucial there, as for drama school.

All your experiences of the stress etc over exams seems as though the tail is wagging the dog: the point of a widely disseminated graded syllabus (RAD or Cecchetti for example) is to give an indication of the pattern and progression of study. The exams simply offer moments of assessments of progress in the long & complex process of learning this beautiful wonderful challenging art. They're not the be all and end all, but it must be hard to remember that in an exam-oriented school.

 as other parents would then want to know the actual mark just to see who had done better.

This is telling. I suppose if parents know nothing about ballet (or the theatre world generally), there's a security in exams. But the competitive parenting you describe must have been tough (I saw it myself in my youth). It's hard to simply stick with the path that you feel is right for your children & family in the face of such rivalry. But it really is such a waste of energy!

Nothing to add except that I find myself nodding along with all these posts, even though there are differences of opinion & experience - there's so much knowledge here! Maybe that means that in ballet, as in life, there are no absolutes? That it's not "Exams are the best way to be taught" or "Exams are useless" but a mix and a balance ...

Cliches'r'us!

Harwel, your points are of course absolutely right. But there are big "howevers" in following the exam route.

There does need to be a balance of free work and syllabus work. I see young adult students who've only done syllabus work in a very regimented way, and they fall apart in an open class. They don't get enough training in picking up combinations and so on.

I'd also say, just from my own experience in doing class for longer than I care to say   that a teacher trained through any of the syllabus systems, but with no professional experience, just doesn't cut it for me. I think it's probably different with young children, but I've done class with both (for example) RAD trained teachers with little or no professional experience as dancers, and retired professionals with little or no teacher training, and frankly, the latter are far better teachers. But as I say, this is probably different for children and young teens. However, there are then difficulties in the transition to more serious work, if there are ambitions for vocational school and professional training.

Cross-threading, the lack of experience of a teacher in the profession might lead to the difficulties of knowing where one's child places in terms of achievement re going to vocational school.

Caveat - I think my view is influenced by first learning ballet from one of those little suburban dance schools with a teacher who had the RAD Solo Seal, but absolutely no professional experience, and a very limited view of ballet really. When I started doing open class while at university in professional studios, I had to relearn so much.

It's difficult to say, as we can't see your DD dance! But here are some things you could do:

* Go to a large reputable studio, maybe not where you are, book a a private lesson with one of their teachers, and an assessment of her strengths and weaknesses (I'm thinking of places such as Pineapple or Danceworks, or their equivalents elsewhere) or even somewhere like the RAD

* Has she had the opportunity to audition for any of the Associates programmes around the country?

* Just audition for the experience for things like the English Youth Ballet, even though logistics might mean your DD can't actually participate.

She needs to get out into a wider ballet world, to see how she measure up against others of her age in open classes.

Cross-threading a bit here, but I suppose this is one of the reasons for doing exams: you get an outside view on your dancing, and a sense of where you measure up in national terms.

A member of my family was admitted to one of the world's top training schools with no ballet exams. They didn't like the students studying for syllabus-oriented exams once there, as they felt that this was too restrictive & didn't prepare students for professional life as a ballet dancer. My relative had a very good career!

I agree, and unlike classical ballet courses, being in your 20s is not necessarily a no-no for starting a full time MT course.

The MA at CSSD has people of quite a range of ages, in comparison with other courses. It's one year in the middle of London, at a fantastic training institution. What's not to like! (apart from the cost ... )

Oh Terpsichore, I'm sure we all feel your pain. Soft tissue injuries are the longest hardest things to heal (memories of plantar fasciitis arise in my mind ...)

 

Having said that, you do know that a quick glance in the programme at the backgrounds of the musical theatre dancers shows that most of them come from full time training at vocational schools or performing arts colleges?  There's no harm in dreaming, but I do hope you have a backup plan..........

Yes, this is the case. The so-called 'stars from nowhere' winning those television reality shows such as the ones searching for a Joseph or a Maria (those Andrew Lloyd Webber ones) were actually final year or Masters level students in Musical Theatre BAs or MAs. Connie Fisher, for example, has a BA in MT from Mountview. Others have done the MA  in MT at Central School of Speech & Drama (I've been an external examiner at CSSD and seen the work they do there). Others have trained at LIPA.

One way of testing the possibilities of a career in musical theatre would be to aim to audition for one of these courses. You'll see what is needed in a career, and whether you've got the potential & the basics -- a very good voice, and excellent dance skills - or raw potential for training in both those areas.

Could you develop the ability to do your own yoga practice? There are some very reputable yoga classes on line (try Adrienne's 30 day Yoga challenge on YouTube). If you don't push the yoga poses, but use it as gentle conditioning & stretching, then it would supplement your dance training. While I'd never advise dance training on your own, if you take yoga practice gently, it can't harm you, as the principle of yoga is just doing enough for your own body, working within your limits. Whereas dance training is always pushing you beyond the current limits of your body.

You could then try the all day Saturday schedule, and dance 3 nights a week, doing your own yoga practice in between.

But I just have to say that I really worry about someone who isn't confident in an open class, but is on pointe. What's the reasoning behind that? You don't need pointe work for musical theatre (mostly) and the potential for injury through pushing your body in ways it's not prepared for is there. If you're not prepared (and 1 class a week for an adult beginner ids really NOT enough) then the extra effort for pointe work may cause your body to misalign, and this sets up the potential for injury.  Just worries me, to be honest.

Just bumping this up with a link to Susie Crow's blog which has details of adult ballet clases in the Oxford area over the summer, which BeckyL (and others) might find useful.

https://balletinsmallspaces.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/summer-classes-oxford/

I just received my Danceworkds email newsletter, which contains notice of this course:

http://danceworks.net/improvers-ballet-course-2/

An Improvers ballet enrolment course, rather than open/drop in. It looks like an excellent way to step up to higher level  classes.

Frankly, your teacher sounds irresponsible, or you haven't listened properly. It doesn't sound as though you're anywhere near ready to begin pointe work, and you should never buy your first pair of pointe shoes online.

You can do permanent damage to your feet, ankles and hips by working on pointe when you're not ready.  Apart from physical strength, alignment, and control of turnout, these are the things that you should be able to do confidently:

Do you feel confident in an intermediate level open class?

Do you have a reasonable knowledge of the execution of the basic steps, with good technique? At both the barre and the centre.
Can you hold your turnout in the centre practice in adage, tendus, and jumps?

Can you do a strong solid single turn both ways (left & right) and good double turns?

And also, I notice the big difficulty many/some syllabus educated dance students have is dealing with an open class, and picking up the combinations. This will be easier at a lower level.

K123, thanks for that link. I'm sometimes working near Woking, so I had a look -- the school looks lovely, but how on earth do you manage with only 45 minute classes? My current local studio has 60 minute classes, and a more advanced class sometimes of the proper 90 minutes, which would sometimes turn into 2 hours -- which was wonderful. My local teacher is excellent & manages to teach a pretty full class in 60 minutes, but only by sacrificing grande allegro, and sissones. And offering either pirouettes with tendus in the centre or travelling pirouettes across the floor. But we rarely do both.

So I'm a bit Hmmmm at just a 45 minute class. How does that work?

Dancehouse, where KNT holds its classes, is also the home of the Northern Ballet School. You'll find some of the information you seek here:

http://www.thedancehouse.co.uk/about_us/intro_about_us.asp

It's located on Oxford Road, one of the main arteries out of the centre of Manchester, going to the University. Five minutes walk from the Manchester Oxford Road railway station. Next door to what was the Cornerhouse, now Home, and there are bars, cafés and any kind of restaurant you'd want, plus a fruit & veg stall , all within 5 minutes' walk.

For that reason, I doubt there's parking on site, but there's a big parking garage nearby. It's very connected for public transport, however.

But really the Beginners at ENB is (I believe) entirely targeted for beginners. I guess 'blatantly' isn't the right word, but for info this isn't the sort of Beginners you're probably thinking of. One of the joys of the ENB classes is that it truly does not leave anybody behind.

 

Oh I see! THanks for explaining.  That sounds great. That is different to most open or drop in classes -- I don't live near enough to London to do ENB classes regularly -- I just do their workshop days.

that if you're studying RAD intermediate you blatantly aren't going to get much out of Beginners or Improvers

 

Actually, I'd beg to differ: if you're working hard and experienced enough to know what you need to be working on, a basic class can be as tough - or tougher - than an more advanced class. It won't have complicated choreography, but the pressure will be on to really work hard on the simple basic things in a clean and polished technical way. 

I think it's because there isn't complicated choreography - you aren't distracted by working fast & complexly, so you can REALLY focus on turnout, alignment, and precision.

Loads in London: you could do class each day at DanceWorks just off Oxford Street near Selfridges (nearest Tube either Bond Street or Marble Arch). These are open drop in classes, not syllabus classes.

I really recommend Hannah Frost. Even her Beginners class has technical challenges, particularly if you're more advanced -- she will not let you off the hook, and gives excellent corrections. And she's very generous, funny, and a lovely teacher overall.

 

 

We've no intention at least for the time being of auditioning for anything in London. Unfortunately it's just not practical. I understand that high quality west end shows are unlikely to hold open auditions and see thousands of children. But what about children who just want experience on a much smaller scale?

Ah, sorry, I see now. You're doing the right things then, and also I'd recommend joining your local amdram/amateur musical theatre company. They always need people who can dance, and it's a good way of becoming part of amdram networks. <wistful memories of every Saturday of my childhood & teens spent in the theatre performing in one of these>

If your DD can sing as well (or at least hold a tune) then she's bound to get involved in things eventually!

But my long experience of these is that part of the way to be cast is to be there for a while. There tends to be a valuing f people and families who get involved, volunteer, and generally contribute to activities, rather than "strangers" who just turn up for auditions. I can see why: if you want opportunities to perform, it's good to help in the creation of the se, and all the work involved in running an amateur theatre.

It's rare that it's the theatre that will advertise open auditions. The "cattle call" costs huge amounts of resource in time, space, and it's generally a waste of time, to be honest. Seeing loads of untrained, or semi-talented, inexperienced want-to-be performers is not the way to cast a show, whatever television programmes such as X Factor etc might suggest (those shows do a terrible disservice to the professional performing arts, in my view!)

It's the role of casting agents working with theatrical agents, and the director/musical director of a show. And the way to be seen by these people is to be signed up to a legitimate theatrical agent. But caveat emptor: any so-called agent who wants an upfront fee from you is not legitimate!