Kate_N

I read these fora fast, but I thought you were asking about professional (vocational) training as much as employment.

I think the harsh thing is that in a world with very many talented dancers, if the potential employee had some of the difficulties eg picking up choreography that you describe, they would be less likely to be employed. Even if the reason for the slowness was disclosed as a disability under the terms of the DDA and/or other EEO legislation. 

You mention asthma - fairly common chronic disease (I have a mild form). Fine if successfully treated & medicated. Much more difficult if either not properly treated, or requiring lengthy hospitalisation etc which meant that the dancer had substantial time off. A certain level of sick leave can be accommodated, but there are limits which any employing body has to set and monitor. 

I think that an invisible chronic illness, such as depression, for example, might be a parallel. Fine if successfully treated & medicated. Much more difficult if either not properly treated, or requiring lengthy hospitalisation etc which meant that the dancer had substantial time off. 

What you're describing - although it's really not completely clear - is a much more fine-grained judgement call, and will depend on the specific talent of the dancer, and the specific conditions of the company. A larger company might be able to support the sort of disabilities you describe; a small contemporary ensemble might be more difficult.

But things such as difficulties in picking up choreography and non-verbal cues off-stage will limit a dancer's versatility and adaptability, I'd have thought. I think their talent would have to be quite extraordinary to outweigh such limitations in doing the job of a dancer in a professional company. 

But really it's hard to answer you with the degree of certainty you seem to be seeking. You don't give context: you don't  say why you're asking these questions or on whose behalf, or about what sort of professional employment situation. You may not want to, so as to preserve your anonymity, but it makes it harder to comment usefully if the problem is not presented with clarity and context. 

I see what you're getting at, but there are a couple of points here:

a) people are all different; people with disabilities are all different; disabilities are all different. So ... the judgement would have to be made on an individual basis. An anonymous internet forum isn't really the place, because we can't see you, we can't help you evaluate the individual case here.

B ) although someone said upthread that dancing is not acting, but - dancing is acting, just without words. It is a performing art, and communication, and the ability to communicate, is essential. The technical training is not an end in itself, but a means to performance and art at a high level. 

c) under the DDA, "reasonable adjustments' have to be made, and since 2010 or thereabouts, educational institutions were bound by it. But the point is that they must be reasonable. For a professional performer training programme, some of the things you've mentioned might be difficult to adjust. And if the student is not able to develop to deliver the 'intended learning outcomes' (what we work towards in universities) with the standard pedagogy of the school, this might pose a problem to difficult to be dealt with via "reasonable" adjustment. Some of the disabilities you describe would make me wonder whether the person was able fully to follow a course of full-time/vocational training in dance, frankly.

In applying for jobs, if an organisation is a "Two Ticks" organisation with regard to disability, that means that an applicant - disclosing a disability (although not its specifics) - who meets the essential criteria of a post is guaranteed an interview. But not the  job. 

As for disclosing - I think you'd need to take proper advice over disclosure. But I would say this: in a work situation (and I know because I've had to manage a situation like this), if someone does not disclose a disability, but then claims or requires 'reasonable adjustment ' or 'reasonable accommodation' in order to do the job to a required standard, that employee would be subject to disciplinary proceedings.

And if they had disclosed a disability, but were not doing the job to a required standard and were refusing to go through an Occupational Health assessment to determine 'reasonable adjustment' then again, it's a disciplinary procedure.

The person themselves - student or employee - cannot determine their own 'reasonable adjustment' - at my institution it's done by an assessment team involving medical specialists, counsellors, and academic tutors. 

So it's complicated.

I suppose, just as an audience member (not university lecturer managing this process), given that dance is a performing art, I'd be wondering why someone with some of the disabilities you list - for example, dyspraxia/dyslexia which suggest real difficulties in spatial processing & understanding, which for me in the sort of teaching I do are utterly basic to stage performance -- would want to train for a performance job, which requires a level of communication, picking up cues, quick response to chaotic change, and verbal/facial/bodily understanding that you say is limited.

RBS is not perfect .....far from it. There are many things about the school that are very frustrating when you're actually going through the system. But I do think it's unfair to blame their method of choosing students when absolutely no one can predict how a child will progress or whether their body shape will be suitable enough for ballet.

This! Thank you for saying this - it's a ray of common sense.

No one has a "right" to have their dreams come true, particularly not a dream so rare & difficult to achieve as becoming a professional ballet dancer in one of the world's major ballet companies. 

So to say that the RBS is mistaken in their selection because not all students they select at age 11 go through from the prep school, to the high school, to the company, is to blame the wrong thing. Bodies change, minds change, bodies are injured, pupils can't or don't want to work in the way they need to work to go through the whole RBS training.

And I think it's wonderful that we have several ballet schools in this country which are the envy of dancers-in-training all over the world. The UK education system is one of the jewels in the national crown (although successive governments are slowly wrecking the secondary and higher education sectors) and attract the best & talented from all over the world. It's great that  British values in art and education are so valued across the world.

Very wise, Primrose. 

Way back in the 50s, my mother trained with someone (at Tring when it was a full-time ballet boarding school) who had been "assessed out" of the RBS because her measurements were thought to be indicative of growing "too tall." At 5' 2" (just) my mother was thought of as perfect "pocket ballerina" height. When my sister was going for jobs, at 5' 4" she was often shorter than most other dancers in the room. 

Things change, ideas change, aesthetics change. Some of the more acrobatic of our dancers or those with an athletic look (I'm thinking of someone like Dusty Button) wouldn't have been employed back in the 50s. It was commonly thought that "Asians" (Chinese, Japanese) couldn't do ballet because their legs were usually to arqué (bow-legged). And now we have dancers like the amazing Chi Cao.

Things change!

Just because a young person may not have the whole thing to make them one of the 1 or 2% that make it from training as a child, into a paid job as a dancer, doesn't mean they can't keep dancing! That has to be what drives anyone, surely? 

We're supposed to be supportive of each other on this forum, but telling parents that there's a perfect physique for a ballerina and inferring that if a child doesn't possess it then it's time to get real is not supportive. This isn't the RoyalBalletcoforum, there are many parents on this forum whose children aren't and never will be associates, or at WL, or US, but those parents should still feel that they have an equal voice here. 

 

Atacrossroads, I'm puzzled - who has said this here? No-one was talking about the Royal Ballet specifically, until you raised that ballet company. The original post was asking generally about Upper Schools, which I took to mean the move for children at age 16 from after-school local studios, to full-time vocational study.  

Vocational schools are that: vocational ie training for the profession. The people running those schools have an ethical duty, as well as their professional &  pedagogical duties, to select the children that they evaluate - from the exercise of extensive knowledge & experience - will have the best chance of thriving in the training, and going on to be competent enough to be employed. 

It's not hugely different from what I do in participating in my university's admission process: I interview, watch other kinds of selection activities, confer with colleagues, and offer places to those applicants I believe have the best chance of thriving in our particular programme. But if they're not academically gifted, they won't be offered a place. We try not to be biased, we try not to discriminate needlessly, but  there's a point at which we have to evaluate and select. And we'll select some, and not others.

Same with selection to all sorts of things. As a parent, with the experience of one (or maybe more!) children, you will naturally se it differently. But if you're a professional in the business of selecting and evaluating young people for highly sought after training (of any type) you'll see thousands of young people. And you will know who suits your training best & why. It's a very different perspective. 

And I'd say as an adult ballet [perpetual] student it is important to keep dancing for the personal enjoyment. And one doesn't need to have been selected for an Associates scheme, or a vocational school, to keep learning, training, and enjoying!

rather than it just being an aesthetic thing.

But ballet is a performing art, where the aesthetics are important! It may be tough to see your children apparently not chosen, but the end point is training an artist for a particular art form, with particular requirements. 

OK, it's a few years since I was in that studio, but I'll try to answer your questions. People wear leotards & tights, with cover ups. Generally fairly neat. Some women wear ballet skirts (I never have - I'm too much of a contemporary-style ballet dancer). 

It's an open class, so they don't do the same combinations either at barre or centre each week - although when Jonathan Payn taught (wonderful wonderful teacher) he would sometimes give us the set Cechetti adages (from the Advanced syllabus, which I learnt!) or the 'Eight positions of the body' set centre exercise, or one term we worked through the Cechetti port de bras. And did the pirouette from a grand plie in 5th exercise.  

But usually, the teacher shows the exercise, we mark, then it's done to the right then the left. Often with the teacher continuing to demonstrate (barre combinations) or call out the movements.

Allegro - starts easy - sautes, changements, echappes - again Jonathan would do an evil counting exercise with changements when we had to hold on (say) count 3, 7, 2, and 6 over 16 counts - or something like that. Taught you either to count, or to listen to the music! Petit allegro combinatrions generally over 32 counts each side, with combinations of glissade, faille, assemblee, pas de basque, ballote, pas de chat, temps de cuisse, - those sorts of steps. Not often brises ... Sissone exercise usually folded into petit allegro

Then we'd probably do a fairly basic pirouette across the floor - tombe chasse, pas de bourree, double en dehors from 4th then to the left, or into a en dedans. And so on. Adage could include adage pirouettes in the grande positions (usually attitude). 

And the studios are large, so grande allegro always great fun. Grand jetes, jete en tournon, turning chasse coupe jetes en menage. 

Sometimes I would find things difficult, but it's a very friendly atmosphere and the teachers seem to LIKE teaching adults. They are exceptional teachers, and you'll learn a lot. They will actually TEACH and do hands on corrections. SO you can learn new stuff as well. 

Oh gosh I do miss those classes, writing this all out!

I used to do that class, and I was looking at the video on the DanceXchange site the other day, and saw some of my classmates there. It's a very inclusive class. There will be a variety of abilities, including ex-vocationally trained students with beautiful extensions etc etc, and then people like me - older, know their stuff but not professionally trained. 

As long as you know enough to get out of the way (I once almost kicked a beginner in a grande allegro combination, who had NO idea - she was cross, but it could have been a disaster), then you'll be fine. There are some lovely friendly people in the class, and the studios are gorgeous! I don't miss a lot about living in Birmingham, but I do miss the ballet classes at DanceXchange.

When you have to jog along with a group of strangers with children from all sorts of different schools and backgrounds and deal with the intensity of being judged or scrutinised by panels that are unfamiliar you develop a degree of tact, humility and patience that I don't think is as tested if you stay within the comfy surroundings of your local area or in a protective huddle.

Petalviolet, I think you've hit the nail on the head. This is so true! Whenever I've seen bragging (in dance or theatre), it's been from a position of  ignorance about the wider arts world. Once you're in that serious creative world, when it's the work that matters, not the individual ego decorations, then what grade your prodigy DD achieved at that stupendously young age (or whatever) means nothing.

That's why I always say to my students (and here <grin> ) that they need to get out more & see lots of dance, lots of theatre, lots of visual art, to educate themselves in the work of serious art.

I think maybe for the suburban bragging parents (I used to do Pony Club & it was the fathers who were the braggers there!) finding a child with a talent for dance is a new experience of art & theatre, and they see it as another set of grades, exams and certificate challenges to measure their child's "exceptional" abilities. But in the end, any performing artist has to learn that it's not actually about them, it's about the work. Of which they are a part.

I was delighted as I was walking home the other night, to hear a group of my final year students (they graduate with their degrees in July) chattering about their final performance projects in a way that showed how they now realised the importance of setting self & ego aside to create a good piece of work as a group. This is what we're all working towards - the highest level of self-development in individuals, with part of that self-development being a realisation of what they can bring to collective creation.

Great thread- and here's a way of dealing with difficult situations from Will and Grace: do you remember the "mother armour" scene?- just replace the word "mother" with "bragging dance mum/dad armour"

I understand why you don't want to see this as a disability, but it is, albeit temporary. I work in a university, and as of a couple of years ago, most (all?) educational services had to comply with the DDA (Disabilities Discrimination Act).  It's our legal duty, but it's also humane, human, and ethical pedagogy.

If -- in every other way -- you are capable and competent in teaching, then the loss of voice should be presented as a temporary disability, and you can justifiably ask for 'reasonable adjustment.' In this case it might simply be the opportunity to demonstrate that even with a low voice you are a capable and effective teacher.

I broke my dominant arm & hand rather badly (18 months of limited use, disability & chronic pain), and found all sorts of things very difficult, especially as my job is a lot of writing! I had to use speech to text software, and in setting it up, the Disabilities counsellor at my university commented that in some ways it was harder for someone suddenly becoming disabled if they've previously been able-bodied. They have to adjust very quickly, and often change a lot about their lives very quickly. And if it's temporary (as I hope yours is - if it's stress related, then there's hope that if the stress goes, the voice eventually returns) then there's really not time to adjust.

It is tough. But if in all other ways you are an effective teacher & the low voice does not hamper your communication with your students, then you have a good case for consideration.

Good luck! And as DrDance says, can you do something about the stress? Sometimes learning the Alexander Technique can help - don't know if you've tried that?

Absolutely Anna_C. I was thinking this was about classical ballet training (reading too quickly!). The other thing about musical theatre is that women's voices can take time to mature - a classically trained singer doesn't start to find her mature voice until around 25 or so, I gather. 

I guess it's all about having options: Plan A, Plan B, Plan C ...

Can I join with others in suggesting that A Levels at ages 16-18 might not be the necessity you think they are. I know this goes against the grain of 'Qualifications, qualifications, qualifications" but bodies for ballet won't wait. Brain training in an academic sense, can wait. And dance training isn't necessarily not brain training!

As others have said, entry for mature students (defined as anyone over 21) can be quite different than for pupils straight from A Levels. And BTecs can be excellent qualifications. They don't have the emphasis on writing (which can be an issue in the subject I teach at university), but they are seen as excellent extended technical & practical training. 

I think this will also depend on your DD's likelihood of being accepted into a reputable vocational dance training school. If she's not accepted into any of the reputable ones in this country, then sadly, she (and you) probably needs to rethink strategies for dance as a profession, obviously. And then A Level study comes back into play.

But if she's accepted into a high level vocational school, then maybe she could really go for that, and pick up other aspects of her training later. 

If I ruled the world <hums Harry Secombe> I'd set up an education system where people could opt in and out of particular kinds of post-compulsory education as their lives and careers demanded. So retraining at 40 if it's needed. And so on ...

Oh Annaliesey, yes - I don't get it: ballet training is better to be slow and steady.

But here's a heartening tale: member of my family was a bit of a late starter (11 or 12 or so), and was never the "star" of her class or the awful dance competitions that were done for "performance experience." There was another girl who was the prodigy etc etc just as your first post lists. Her mother was always not-bragging, just as you say in your first post - not bragging, just telling us all about her daughter's achievements (yeah, right).

Guess who went on to earn her living as a professional dancer reaching at soloist level in an established well-known company?

Hint: it wasn't the youthful prodigy ...

But they are being 'honest' by describing a class as 'Intermediate level' if it is between Beginner and advanced or professional. I think the mistake is to assume that the dance world runs on the terminology of children's graded syllabi - it really doesn't!

RAD, ISTD and all the others are simply children's graded syllabi, used mostly in the UK and former colonies.

would have felt like she was learning choreography and not dancing to practise and improve technique. 

 

That's a really interesting distinction, Annaliesey. Because for a serious but non-professional adult ballet student, what you describe is normal, and is indeed "practising and improving technique" - We learn through the choreography - the combinations given in exercises at the barre and centre. Your daughter's judgement seems very accurate and mature: if she couldn't see herself learning in that way - which is normal for adult advanced dancers, then she wasn't at that level. There'll come a time when she is at that level!

Sorry for all the questions but for the classes aimed at under 16s, for Classical Ballet which class would the average grade 4 and 5 dancer be working at? 

 

A child working on Grade 4 or 5 (I remember doing Grade 5 RAD waaaay back) should be in the children's course at Danceworks. I don't think they'd cope with much more - maybe the Beginners level. And even then, the Beginners classes I've been to cover far more than is in the Grade 5 syllabus, iirc. 

There's so much out there for children, I'm not sure I see why an 11 or 12 year old should be going to adult classes. 

Her's the link for the Danceworks Ballet Academy (the children's programme). You'll see they allow drop in classes, details in the "Fees" section:

http://www.danceworks-academy.net/

Yes, 6 is bizarre. But that is a different sort of class, I suspect. I think that even if one had no idea of what Danceworks is - except that a good read of the website does tell you it's a studio for adults - you might pick up a hint or two from the statement made that open classes are for adults, and children are an exception, for which you need the teacher's permission. And that there is a separate children's programme ...

2dancersmum - yes, you've put really well what I was trying to say, without sounding anti-children! Classes at Danceworks, Pineapple etc are for adults ... I've done classes put on for adults, with under 16 yos in them, and it does change the feel of the class. One class I just stopped going to because the mother who brought her two children along with her, had no idea about how to train her children not to get in the way in the centre. And the teacher just let it happen. 

And 

Just think a beginner tag would attract those with no experience rather than several years at a lower level. 

 

I don't think it's confusing if it's an Adult class. Adult Beginners ...

I would LOVE to see this. Brilliant!

I sympathise with your daughter and her friends. There are huge developmental differences between an 11 year old and a 16 year old, and there's the reasonable concern that having 11 year olds in a master class designed for 16+ young dancers would slow the class down, and draw attention from those for whom the Masterclass was designed. I don't understand the desire to push young children inappropriately like this - it's really bad for their training and their bodies. Is it bragging rights for parents? 

As an adult dancer, a "hobby" dancer but nevertheless a serious student of the art of ballet, there are even fewer opportunities for non-professional adult dancers to develop their skills and technique than for the older teen dancers. It seems only fair to keep adult classes for adults!

Just adding: looking at the description of Ms Northmore's class, it sounds really wonderful. But I'd read the "General" as an indication of the type of class which moves quickly and in which the teacher assumes participants know all the repertoire of steps. Not a "teaching you new steps" sort of class - although in a good class, one always learns something!

It would be really helpful if they gave some idea of grade level. A class tagged as suitable for over 11's General to advanced level wouldn't suggest professional level to me either if I hadn't read previous threads!

But RAD or whatever grades for children and teens aren't what the professional dance world operates by. Particularly not for a studio with an open programme for those over 16. Children under that age are the exception in open classes. There is a children's programme at Danceworks, and plenty of graded classes all over the country for children.

You really can't assume that "Advanced" means RAD Adv 1 - iirc, that was Intermediate when I studied grades. The "Advanced" class at Danceworks basically is for professionals, ex-professionals, and those study at pre-professional level. If a child has only done set syllabus work, they'll really struggle with an open class at Danceworks. Best to stick to Beginners - in my experience at various studios in the UK and US, it's possible to watch a little bit of the end of a class before yours starts, or watch the start of the class after yours, and you can get a good sense of the level then.

There's really no shame or harm in going down a level when trying out an open class at a studio. The beginners classes at Danceworks are excellent. And frankly, it's more courteous for those sharing the class! I've been in classes at Advanced level (not Danceworks, I'm not up to Advanced there!) where beginners have been quite dangerous - I had to stop a big jump once because some inexperienced person who couldn't follow the combination was trying to jump across me. I could have been injured. 

Congratulations! UEA is an excelle t university and the English Department is top-notch (I know several of the academic staff there). Have a wonderful time in September starting university (I always get nostalgic at Freshers Week time ... lost youth ....  )