DancingtoDance

I know I am not a parent or adult, but please take my advice into consideration...

First of all, if you haven't already, you need to ask your son why he wants to do ballet. You may be surprised at his answer; sometimes children have more insight than we realise. Obviously if he doesn't really want to dance there may not be much point in him being in ballet, but if he does want to dance, it is only fair that you give him the chance as children should explore their interests and he may regret it later otherwise. Even if he doesn't want to do ballet but wants to do other dance, he may have to start with ballet as ballet is the foundation of most dance - and because good dance studios will not allow him to do things like jazz without a foundation of ballet and without doing ballet. Unless he wants to do a dance form which doesn't require ballet, such as tap or perhaps folk or Chinese dance (I'm not sure if folk or Chinese dance requires ballet?)

You may not want him to do ballet because you are scared he is naturally talented - I understand your fears, but to me that is like not allowing him to put his possible talent into use. And no one really is naturally talented; we only have the requirements for certain training - because in anything, no matter what gifts a person has, one needs to practise for many hours and have the discipline to 'build' their talent and put it into use. Of course, there is a lot more than flat turnout when it comes to talent. Then again, there is a genetic component to a ballet body and apparently he has a sister with a ballet body? The only way to find out is to have him evaluated by a person knowledgeable in ballet and/or have him start ballet lessons - I am not suggesting you should have him start ballet lessons just to find out. But if he does turn out to be naturally talented, you should support him whichever way he wants to go. So if he wants to achieve a high level while still dancing recreationally then if possible support him, and if he wants to do ballet vocationally support him this way too - there is always a way for talented aspiring ballet dancers. You do have to take into account needs of other siblings if applicable and other things, but I feel strongly a child with a passion should be supported in that, and supported to take it seriously if they are able to pursue that passion seriously. On the other hand, if they are talented but just want to do it for fun, that is fine too.

Of course, you always need to emphasise family (though family time may be a sacrifice for serious training - but you could still treasure spending time together and spending time with a sick family member, et cetera), health and academics (requiring grades that the child is capable of if they put in maximum (but not ridiculous, e.g. overnight) effort - for example some should be required to get a high A*, others will struggle to get a D) and have a plan B. But this does not mean rob the child of their dreams, especially if they are very able - how would you feel if you were a very able pianist and that was all you wanted to become, but your parents forced you to do something else and that is what you ended up doing? You will have succeeded, but not doing what you want to do. If your son spends time in a vocational school but does not become a dancer, he will still have learnt many life lessons.

In any case, if your son wants to do ballet, ballet has many benefits (as you know) whether or not a child does it vocationally.

If your son truly does not want to do ballet then look into other activities that also are beneficial and which achieves what he wants. Also, some activities are beneficial to ballet (although some are counter-productive). If you take him into gymnastics, be sure that is what he wants and recognise it is counter-productive in ballet and explain that to him, in case at a later date he wants to do ballet. I think (but am not sure) that taekwando may be beneficial to ballet.

Thanks for reading this post and I hope you take my advice into consideration.

Sorry, quoted incorrectly.

In regards to the last post, please will somebody help me? I finally found out the director is Monica Mason but that's about it...?

Thank you for any help.

A few years ago, the director of the RBS was asked who would be the "Next British Ballerina". I won't state her reply here but if anyone cares to google the directors name and the name of a very good Lilac Fairy and Mistress from Manon they will find quite a statement. Some British dancers now seem to prefer other companies. A very good White Lodger joined BRB at the beginning of the year.

I think even in some of the most famous, perhaps unsuspicious schools specific teachers have said shocking things/suggested doing scary things, and students may not inform parents for fear of being taken out of the school

Really abuse or mistreatment (whether legally or not) of whatever kind can happen anywhere to anyone of any background

I'm not acquainted with Ludmilla Zakharova - can anyone enlighten me? Is she someone who has been found guilty of abuse?

Sadly she passed away some time ago

She was the founder of Perm Ballet School and has been featured in several documentaries, including 'Captives of Terpsichore' (featured in the 1990s, and after the films many of her students accused her of abuse) a documentary which could be found on YouTube (the description says it shows the last and final exam of Zakharova's graduating class - I think this is a different documentary) and 'A Beautiful Tragedy'

In 'Captives of Terpischore' and 'A Beautiful Tragedy' she has been shown slapping students, pushing a student away and belittling and demeaning students

Then again I think she congratulated students after the exam/performance (I'm not sure which, or both?)

I haven't really watched the whole of the documentaries or know that much either

Throwing a chair really...   Then again that comes close to something that is physically abusive and could potentially cause pain/damage which I have heard is done in a specific school in a specific country

I hope throwing a chair was not directly at them, either way a student could get hurt

But I do realise many ballet teachers STILL are abusive, even physically in some countries

I think a great ballet teacher is someone who demands as much as the dancers can give but does so humanely, perhaps sometimes quiet and sometimes more of a strict voice depending on which is necessary at the time, that is also supportive of the dancer and motivates the dancer, is strict but respects dancers as a human being, if for example there is a sign of an injury not requiring the dancer to dance through it or pull it through without taking care (which is just wrong) but telling the dancers to seek medical advice, understand if the dancer has to take care of their injury (but then again for certain reasons many dancers do not do this)

Some teachers are considered one of ballet's 'greatest teachers' yet have been shown to be abusive... for example Lyudmila Zakharova

There are 'many ways to Rome' (is this an actual quote/idiom, or is there are similar saying or not?), yes sometimes you have to be firm or strict, but it is possible to teach ballet professionally while still being humane, and it is possible to 'cross the line'

As someone said on another forum, 'strict is fine, firm is fine, but cruel is never acceptable'

Here is a list of what someone thinks makes a great dance teacher; of course, I think there are many more characteristics

http://www.danceadvantage.net/great-dance-teachers/

Ruthless is not OK, I think personally I would find many things bordering on 'crossing the line' acceptable, but while ruthless is not OK ballet students are traditionally told to keep silent; this is part of the reason for continuing abuse

And also, dance students often see anything related to 'correcting' or 'improving' students, whether their classmates or themselves a sign that teachers see potential in them, which may (or may not) be true, but they often don't see this as a problem no matter the content, context, how it was said, how humiliating it was etc

The problem is students may consider downright abusive teaching to be 'for their benefit' and not realise it is abusive, and if they do they may not speak out

Hopefully now dancers/students are more willing to recognise and speak out against a problem, but I'm not sure whether this is the reality

Edited to add link

Edited to fix post

I don't see that it would be different but to answer fully with examples would potentially identify children & teachers/dancers who I don't have the right to identify.

OK I understand, what do you mean when you say 'you don't see it would be different'?

I've been fairly open but in fairness to Dd I can't go into that level of detail on an open forum.

Ok thank you and I understand, all posts/advice by everyone has been useful

I am fairly certain that dds school would be able to deal with this

 

However what the child may find difficult is the not picking up choreography quickly & not understanding instructions (they will be given clearly & in a non figurative way) there are several dyslexic children at the school & Dd is not the only one on the spectrum (one such child has now left to attend a different upper school). The senco is fabulous.

 

In fact the school would be wonderful for Ds (better than his academic school) - he could audition as a drama student) however unlike Dd he would not cope with the longer days & travel/being away from home. For dd this is not an issue.

Thank you and I see your point about picking up choreography, but the choreography aside would this be different in Upper School, company auditions and/or contract time (if it happens, that is)?

I am talking about a dancer who still has a few years, but only a few

I think non figurative, fairly clear and not too confusing/advanced wording will be okay

Thing is, that while mild dyslexia is generally something pupils and students can find ways to deal with coping strategies, there are some versions of dyslexia as a learning disability which are part of a syndrome which can include dyspraxia, and difficulties with visual and spatial processing. So this more pronounced form would, I think, make vocational training & professional employment difficult.

 

It's just very difficult to advise you in the way you want to be advised. You seem to be seeking a particular answer. We can't give it to you.

No I am not seeking a particular answer, just looking for opinions/advice, but I see what you mean

So I think more than anything it is how the disability affects the person individually, what coping strategies the dancer has and the degree of the disability?

I know there is a higher proportion of pupils with dyslexia at vocational schools as the ex head of academics mentioned it a number of years ago and I believe they are well supported through school. So having dyslexia I don't believe would be a barrier to be accepted into a vocational school and then being able to audition for companies.

 

However reading the list of other problems you describe I would question that this individual would cope with the challenges of vocational school. Vocational schools are very cloistered, with very small year groups. The children live on top of each other 24/7 and rarely get any space. Individuals I know either on the autistic spectrum or with psychological problems need quiet time alone to be able to cope with life's challenges. Of course everyone who has issues like this is an individual and has different ways of coping but the reality of boarding houses means there is only so much the staff could do to offer support. I'm imagining as a family you would need to offer extra support both physically and emotionally and having had a dd who over the previous six years has been through the ups and downs of vocational school I can vouch this is draining without her having any know problems other than the usual growing up and going through life's lessons. There have been many times over the years when I've wished we lived closer and could just whisk her away for a break. I think if she had any problems we would all have found these years near on impossible and very stressful.

 

I know of one dancer (there may be others) who didn't complete her training via vocational school but I would say this would be isolating for someone with the problems you list and may well exacerbate them making them more obvious in group situations. A company AD will look at the candidates before him at time of audition and as has been mentioned on other threads you will be one of maybe 100+ candidates. You have to have exactly what they are looking for and stand out above the other candidates to even get a second look never mind a job. If you struggle to pick up a routine quickly I imagine the stess of an audition where you are given a number of steps to perform would be unmanageable.

 

I'm thinking the problems you describe would make the journey through vocational school very difficult and would become more obvious at company audition time.

Thank you, I am talking about an individual who likes socialising with somewhat of a 'weird' personality, mostly because of far-fetched creativity and talking about these topics (but then again this is by choice), however I do understand what you mean when you say the vocational school can only offer so much support and issues may become more obvious at company audition time.

As for dyslexia, I believe in the Royal Ballet School admissions policy (of course providing the student meets the requirements) for the interview and academic task at White Lodge or predicted or actual results (e.g. at GCSE or A Level) the only question they are looking at is whether they can provide adequate support, that they ask parents to disclose any disability or special educational need their child may have and are committed to 'dealing appropriately and supportively' in the admissions assessment process and that they accept students with dyslexia, English as an additional language and specific learning difficulties and no candidate should be discriminated because of the aforementioned difficulties (dyslexia, specific learning difficulties and English as an additional language).

http://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Admissions-Policy.pdf

What is your particular interest in dyslexic ballet dancers, DancingtoDance? You seem to have moved a long way from your original post which appeared to be referring to a person with an ASD.

 

I recollect reading an interview with Sergei Polunin in which he said that he did not like (academic) school work and that he was dyslexic.

Just out of interest, as I stated 

An employer only has to make 'reasonable' adjustments. If the adjustments required by the applicant are not reasonable in the context of that particular employer then it is my understanding that the job offer could be withdrawn.

Yes, I realised this, thank you.

There are a number of famous dancers who have made it public that they are dyslexic, most notably Darcey bussell. There are a large number of famous actors also (I believe it is actually significantly more common in actors than in the general population). I'm sure many people would presume this wasn't a natural career choice due to the necessity to read/ memorise lines etc but it is often possible to find ways of working round difficulties and the other attributes that are common in dyslexics make them natural performers. People who struggle with adversity early on often develop a resilience and determination not seen in their peers. As people have mentioned it depends on the individual but the problem is that as soon as you use a 'label' people will presume all sorts of things about you and your abilities. Interestingly, the question I have always had on application forms is ' do you consider yourself to have a disability'. Im sure a lot of people with the mentioned conditions do not consider that they have a 'disability' and could answer no. Personally I would declare it if it is something that you would need adjustments or special consideration for, but I think you could wait until you were offered the job if you stated that you were worried that it would influence the outcome.

Thanks for your post.

Just out of interest - I know about Darcey Bussell, but what other dancers/actors have made it public that they are dyslexic? Are there any other former or current BALLET dancers (I know Kathleen Rea had a similar? condition: http://www.openbooktoronto.com/news/guest_blog_dyslexic_dancer_kathleen_rea )other than Darcey Bussell?

Thank you for Kate_Ann and Aileen for your posts.

Sorry for not being clear; I think I am finished asking about the specific situation per se (but feel free to give advice as I would appreciate it) - I am asking mostly about mild neurological/mild hearing/manageable psychological difficulties, in a professional ballet employment situation, but other advice would also be appreciated

Whether they people with mild hearing or neurological disabilities or psychological difficulties should disclose their disability and when (i.e. before the audition, if and when they land their contract or when somehow it becomes apparent)

What possible reasonable adjustments could the company provide, or would this not be possible

Thank you Kate_N and aileen for your posts.

I am not talking about two different children, not young either.

I am also not talking about dyspraxia, not clumsiness (at least not while dancing!)  

I am talking both about a specific situation (refer to my second post) and other difficulties (not a specific situation) mentioned in the second post, I would appreciate replies to either, I would even appreciate replies to physical illness related - all these things have something in common, but could also be talked about specifically

By now, I am forming this conclusion:

-it is not necessary to disclose your disability if it does not impact your work or work-related situation (while dancing and while not dancing)

-if you will need reasonable adjustments during work, you will need to disclose your situation (if and after you land a contract, or before then?)

-if the ballet company cannot provide support, perhaps look elsewhere than ballet

However, what reasonable adjustments during could a ballet company provide?

Do you think something like diabetes or asthma should be disclosed (again, not a specific situation), if and after landing the contract? I think this should be disclosed, after the contract?

The answer where I asked elsewhere said they knew someone who got turned down by good summer intensives when they disclosed their diabetes at the start of auditions, and when they stopped doing this this stopped happening, and that they told after and there was no problem (this was in the US, however).

Kate_N, you said educational institutions are bound by DDA but you did not say ballet companies - when I asked this question elsewhere, it seemed that ballet companies can do anything they want. So does this not apply to ballet companies.

Edited for clarity

Well I asked this somewhere else to get more opinions and it seems that disclosing your disability may indeed affect you getting hired?

And this may seem a crazy question (inspired by aileen, who was very sensible :-) ), but what should a person do if their difficulties indeed involved having great difficulty reading company letters/notices? Or had difficulty understanding certain words in the notice/letter. Could the company do anything about this, and would most dancers be willing to explain the notice to the fellow dancer?

Thanks taxi4ballet for your post; finger crossed for the mentioned child to compete in the Paralympics! :-) 

I was just talking about any context and curious to what people envision, but I guess here are some contexts:

1. Hearing a friend, colleague or more distanced person say 'disability':

referring to them

or their child, or a child, or someone else

2. Looking at the word 'disability' for the first time in a book or document or Internet

3. Hearing that a lecturer is going to give a talk on disability

4. Learning from a child or parent that the child has a disability or the parent has a disability

Any context, or generally is fine. I was talking more about what disabilities you most likely or most often attach the word 'disability'

The thing is autism is a spectrum & if you know one person with autism you know ONE person with autism.

 

Dd finds it impossible not to be on time with the music, it's one of her 'things'. Ds finds anything out of tune physically painful for example.

Thank you for your post; I appreciate it and totally agree with what you're saying

Just to be clear, I was not talking about autism or the person when talking about not understanding counts 

And I think it is possible to not understand counts (or not understand 1, 2, 3 or 4) and still understand counts (if you know what I mean) and be on time with the music 

aileen Yes, but mixing up right and left, having difficulty understanding direction words, having difficulty counting music/understanding counts

 

I do think there are ways to work around all of these and they may not necessarily be a major problem... BUT what company would hire someone who mixed up left and right at the audition? I don't know.. 

 

Or the dancer may develop very good coping strategies, but the specific learning difficulty may become apparent after a rather long time

 

Company staff may or may not realise it is related to dancers' difficulties... but how can they if they haven't even disclosed it?! Unless they somehow become aware, through the visible difficulties of the dancers.

Just to be clear, this post is related to dyslexia/dyscalculia

I think that a person with dyscalculia may not understand counts doesn't mean they can't dance to the count, but if they can't dance to the count then I could see how that could be a big problem.

Yes, the person is actually musical, I was not talking about the person when I talked about dyslexia/dyscalculia

May I ask how old this person is?

 

And if I can use this term, does the person in question have frequent or occasional 'meltdowns' and / or need to have 'space' at certain times when feeling overwhelmed?

If you mean autistic meltdowns or rage, it would be extremely unlikely to happen with non-family members

aileen Yes, but mixing up right and left, having difficulty understanding direction words, having difficulty counting music/understanding counts

I do think there are ways to work around all of these and they may not necessarily be a major problem... BUT what company would hire someone who mixed up left and right at the audition? I don't know.. 

Or the dancer may develop very good coping strategies, but the specific learning difficulty may become apparent after a rather long time

Company staff may or may not realise it is related to dancers' difficulties... but how can they if they haven't even disclosed it?! Unless they somehow become aware, through the visible difficulties of the dancers.

I think in companies, it would be difficult because corps rehearsals are for ALL of the dancers dancing the ballet in corps roles, but it would be less of a problem if the dancers' coping skills are efficient

I am talking more about companies than schools

What do you think/think of when you hear 'disability'?