Ballet_novice

2 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

With due respect, just as the pervasive culture was true for you perhaps it was not true for the poster.  Just because their experience was different than yours does not make theirs less valid. 

 

Calling someone with a different point a view a liar just polarizes opinion more and makes resolution harder. 

 

 

 

Yes. But why the so called investigative journalism does not do a proper investigations and does not limit to 4 

Here we are presented with 4 cases and make concluding remarks. How about the thousands of others with different experiences 

People should talk with real statistics at hand. Here we are presented with 4 cases and we draw conclusions not granted. 

Sure stop any

8 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

I posed the question so we could have a reasoned and hopefully informed discussion, yes. 

 

I can also see some of the perspective of schools which 'assess out'. That one is so difficult.

 

Matthew Ball's mother was at White Lodge and was 'assessed out' after a year as she grew too tall.  That's public info BTW.  I can see the ramifications of that from both sides. It's out of the control of any human how tall they grow (without medical intervention).

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

No current students would have dared to stick their head above the parapet. It would be the kiss of death for their career, and they know it. 

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

1 minute ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Even putting aside whether or not a student is British, surely both upper school and WL are under the same wider RBS umbrella. It therefore won’t be unreasonable to assume that if indeed it is one of the top three schools in the world, then RBS’s upper school surely should have more students progressing on from its own lower school? If this is the case and WL students comprise a significant  % of every first year upper school  cohort, then everyone can be assured that such world class training, perhaps one of the top three in the world, is consistent across all 8 years of the school.

Again this assumes everyone over the years develop in the same way simply because one has access to the same training. Which is not the case. Not in ballet, not in any sports, not in academics. 

13 minutes ago, Anna C said:

I don’t think that’s a fair comment, to be honest.  Obviously we don’t know your experience/background - not that you are required to declare it here at all, but it’s your *opinion*, and as such, it is subjective (as of course are all our opinions).  
When giving our opinions, we should be mindful of who we’re actually speaking negatively about, and the “who” in this instance is 16 year old students.

 

Then there are the schools you’re comparing White Lodge yr 11s to.  ENBS doesn’t have a lower school, so you can only have seen Elmhurst, Tring Park, Hammond, and maybe YDA?  Have I missed any?

 

Leaving aside the fact that at Tring and Hammond, they don’t call themselves “Ballet Schools” because they offer a more general dance and/or theatre dance course, White Lodge gets more MDS funding than any other lower school, including Elmhurst.  Therefore, especially as the “feeder school” for RBS Upper School, they SHOULD be providing the highest standard of classical ballet training in the UK.  

 

But all this is still missing the point.  The real problem, as I see it, is twofold:

 

1. The tiny (and in some years, nonexistent) chance of completing 5 years at White Lodge AND being accepted into Upper School,

 

and 

 

2. The number of *British trained* (not British born) Upper School students to make it to graduation from RBS Upper School, without being replaced by prize-winning students trained elsewhere and taken into US for only one year, then being referred to as “trained at The Royal Ballet School”.  

Don’t understand why being a white lodge student should necessarily guarantee a spot at upper school.
 

Training offers alone is probably not sufficient. even if I had trained with the coach of Federer, I would have never become Federer - because physically I could not, mentally, coordination. Etc.

I love to sing but will never have the voice of Frank Sinatra no matter how much I train. I loved to play basketball as a teenager but i can never play in the NBA 
 

You are making an assumptions that everyone is equally capable. Which is not the case.
 

And yes this is unfortunately valid also for 16yo. And parents should be realistic in their expectations and also be mindful of guiding children towards what’s best for them. 
 

Each one of us here express his own opinion which is never an absolute truth. And I don’t pretend to possess the gift of the absolute truth. 

On 16/07/2023 at 15:40, Kerfuffle said:

While  totally agree with this, in particular the final paragraph, I still feel it is a real shame that not a single British born girl got given a place this year at RBS upper school in spite of the success of principal dancers such as Yasmine Naghdi, Anna Rose O’’Sullivan and Francesca Hayward . I also have recently heard first hand just how much it costs to train in USA where so many competition winners come from. It really is almost impossible for someone from the U.K. to compete with this. ENBS is extremely popular choice  at overseas competitions as well but it still gives British dancers a chance and has an excellent company. 

May be by chance this year the British students simply were not at the level required (combination of physical characteristics, artistry, technique etc. ).  Upper school is i understand one of the three top school in the world. And to remain as such simply has to select the best worldwide. Pretty much like universities. 

15 hours ago, Millicent said:

But students at WL are assessed in Feb of Y9. That means they've only had 2 years and 5 months at the school. To put the attrition rate down to not being able to properly assess talent in Y7 suggests that it becomes highly apparent between the age of 11 and 13. 

 

Assessing out at other vocational schools is very very rare compared to WL. I think most now more or less guarantee a place up to Y11. 

Probably. But I think that the quality of year 11 students at royal ballet is on average much higher than other vocational school. I have seen performance of different schools and I could see a marked difference. 

9 hours ago, Peony said:

I don’t think anyone would argue that there should be a 100% success rate but that it should probably be better than it is currently. I wonder how many girls have even made it from year 7 into the gcse years because I think last year it’s wasn’t that many? And then just 2 years later into upper school? Other similar schools certainly assess out but do they completely replace the students? It could be argued that things like injury, motivation, health are reasons for potential drop out that are modifiable by the school. If other schools can select at 10/11 and produce dancers why can’t rbs? I used to defend rbs but I’m quite shocked that they’re seemingly getting rid of so many students after year 9. It just appears that they’re happy to take the government funding until

they can get someone ‘better’ in. If you can’t select more accurately don’t have a lower school it’s not fair on the children, families or tax payers. Maybe just get rid of WL entirely if the intake at upper school is from elsewhere. Given the current success rate from year 7 into the company what really is the point? I don’t really care where the kids were born but I’d like to see a company with a uniform style able to

dance in the British style because they’ve been trained all the way through in that style. 

I think a school have the obligation of to give place to students who best deserve it. If this means assessing out, it is part of the process. I think that the RB Company despite employing professional from many different training continue to embody at best the British style so I am not sure where your concern about Britishness come from. 

12 hours ago, Lifeafterballet said:

I don’t think they are the wrong children, they are just too young for the schools to assess whether they have the natural facility for a career in classical ballet. It’s a rare thing and if you haven’t got it and try to force it you will hurt the child physically and mentally. We have personal experience of this. 
There are so many changes from 11 to 16, physically, mentally and emotionally that it doesn’t surprise me just how few continue to upper school. 
I am not going to be very popular here…. but maybe assessing out wasn’t a bad thing. It’s upsetting but if it’s in the best interest of the child then it’s necessary. 

Our daughter hurt herself physically and mentally to stay in her school and continue her ballet training. She knew exactly what she was doing, but not the long term implications of it.

Round peg, square hole. 
A [ short ] career in ballet is not worth that. 
 

Agree. As tough as it may be it is better to guide children towards what is their best interest. And children or is as parents may not necessarily always be able to determine that independently. 

11 hours ago, LinMM said:

I agree. 
It’s a bit like assessing children at age 11 for academic studies ( some will remember the old “11 plus exam” ) 

This forced children into different types of schools at too young an age. 
We were lucky in the County I lived in as a child as there was always good transfer between Grammar and Secondary Modern schools even before Comprehensive education came in and there was always quite a drop out from Grammar schools when you could leave school at 15 thus opening up lots of sixth form places to children who developed a bit later academically.
Unfortunately other children living elsewhere were not so lucky. 
So I think it is difficult to predict at age  11 who will turn out to be suitable for ballet in 7 or 8 years time. 
One would always hope all those admitted at 11 to RBS ( and similar) are going to go all the way of course but I can’t help feeling Life isn’t always so straight forward. 
I think if children are assessed out earlier ….say at 13 ….this should not prevent them being assessed back in again later on if things change again!! 
Where ballet is concerned it’s a very long time between 11 and 18. 

 

Very good point. 

13 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

So it appears the wrong children are being chosen and then they are not taught or inspired sufficiently!

Well at early age students may be assessed in a certain way. But then each one develop differently, physically and in characters and capabilities. We are and they are not all equally gifted. As in any professions, sports or any endeavour. It is not only a question of the training one has access to. 

14 hours ago, DVDfan said:

This is of course true, but if it applied to all the students who are not offered places in years 10 and 12, (which I doubt since so many of them go on to other vocational schools and do well), it would indicate that vocational training starts too young.  

 

My concern here is as a tax payer - I have no connection with the dance world except as an audience member. And I am feeling that if my taxes are supporting a vocational ballet school I want it spent training the most talented British children to the standard that will get them into paying work. 

Eventually  is simply that there are not as many British national with the characteristics needed. I assume an Each school and company has certain standards I believe and if those are not met or no more met than student are not enrolled or are assessed out 

On 17/07/2023 at 21:30, Pointytoes said:

Totally agree with the above statent. However, the real problem begins earlier and what must be looked at is the quality of training in the lower school. Female students are unable to reach the levels needed to compete with students who are hot housed and are trained extensively and often privately for competitions. A class a day at the bar simply does not cut it. 
Absolutely, make this school an international one, bring in the best but train those young students who begin in year 7 and have been talent identified by the AD to the standards required. Please do not have parents buy into the English De Valois dream, it is dead. Remove the patronage if it is now an international Academy lead by an AD who serves as a talent scout globally. But please do not pass these students off statistically as being ‘ Royal Ballet trained’. There are many amazing international dancers. This is not about race or ethnicity, it is about what the purpose is of RB lower school is and the quality of training it provides especially for the young students it takes in.This is an issue that cannot be ignored.

Have you ever considered that perhaps the students that appeared to be ballet material in year 7 …over the years it turns out actually were not all as such? It is not only training. Several  students leave WL because they loose interest in ballets, or develop physical conditions that are not compatible with ballet, or simply don’t have anymore the inclination and dedication needed for ballet any longer. 

Yes.

On 26/02/2023 at 21:43, WendyC74 said:

It is true that the world is a large and diverse place, with a population of approximately 8 billion people, and that it is important for schools to seek out the best talent from around the globe. However, this does not excuse rejecting existing UK students in favor of fee-paying international students.

While it is understandable that schools may want to attract talented students from other countries, they should not do so at the expense of their existing students, particularly those who have already shown great promise and dedication. It is important to remember that education is a public good and should be accessible to all, regardless of their nationality or ability to pay.

Furthermore, it is worth considering the benefits of nurturing and supporting local talent. By investing in and promoting the potential of UK students, schools like the Royal Ballet School can not only contribute to the development of a thriving national arts scene but also help to showcase the diversity of talent within the UK.

Please note that many Uk students are also full paying as support is family income base. 

1 hour ago, Katryn said:

Hi I'm new to this forum,  my daughter got accepted for week 5, pink, boarding.  She's over the moon.  We are flying in from Malta, and she would be happy to get to know someone who is joining that week too.  Thank you

She will love it. White Lodge is a wonderful place.

3 minutes ago, richieN said:

If it was the best school in the world, it should get the best results. The very fact that they throw out so many children at year nine tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with their training.

Well I think you are assuming that all students are equal. Which is not the case. Do you think that all the children that train for tennis or for football with the best tennis coaches and best junior club end up at the top of tennis or football? These type of careers like ballet are super competitive. And that’s how schools and companies remains at the top of their league. 
 

similarly not all top university students graduates with A+ but we certainly don’t think Harvard Oxford or Cambridge cannot teach. Do we? 

25 minutes ago, RubyM said:

The dancers that I know who recently got told to leave the school in Y9 are extremely talented, uninjured and remain 100% dedicated so no, I don't believe those are the reasons they are asked to leave.

What were the reasons then? They perhaps were not suited for ballet at the level required by the school for other reasons. 

10 hours ago, WendyC74 said:

It's very muddy, but I fear this is the point of the entire thread. The RBS is taxpayer subsidized and a registered charity but seems unable to nurture UK talent so is prioritising international students and benefits financially from both sides. It's quite cunning (in a machiavellian way) but it's denying UK dancers the opportunities they deserve.

 

I think the school wants to be a top school in world educating and training the best talent to remain the best school in the world.  Don’t think that all Uk dancers are necessarily ranking in the best talents in the world. Some do. This is the same in many fields. I have friends with teenagers  in professional football clubs and the bar increases every year as junior clubs look for talent from everywhere. So are ballet schools and companies. 

I think it is because it is very expensive for foreigners to come and auditions and also family may not be ready to make that type of commitment - as well as separate from their children - when they are 11. Then as the children grow and continue to show talent and desire to progress as dancer, family may be more inclined to support them for a school abroad. So this make the pool of the best talents from other countries approaching the auditions. At the same time some of the more local students who started year 7, may well turn up not to be as talented as expected, suffer injuries or simply not being interested in ballet that much anymore or not willing to continue to make the sacrifices needed to train for classical ballet. 
Not that different than what happen in other high performing sports. Not all foot players in British clubs are British, no?

53 minutes ago, richieN said:

It's been evident for quite a few years now that foreign investment has played a key part in buying stakes in UK schools and universities - not all by regimes I would feel comfortable allowing. (But that's a separate discussion.)  While I generally applaud overseas investment in education, there does need to be some challenge as to whether this will be good for the development of UK talent. Manicured grounds and sand-blasted walls don't make for a good school - its their ability to differentiate and develop talent. 

 

RBS have the pick of all of the UK students from year 7 onwards, and also on a part-time basis before that with their Junior Associate programme. They have all the same time as schools abroad. From what I currently see, year 9 will be the point where RBS will start to throw out almost all of the British students for lucrative overseas students. So there are two hypothesis that we can glean from this:

 

1 - They don't want UK students because its not lucrative, but they have to take them to give lip service to the UK education establishment

2 - Overseas students are better schooled abroad than RBS and get in on merit

 

Neither hypothesis paints RBS in a good light where UK talent is concerned. 

The world has 8 bn people. We in Uk has 67 million people. If the school look for global talent to really be the best school worldwide then it is not surprising that Uk national end up being a small percentage of the total as would be for many other nationalities.

9 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

From our experience (not RBS) corporate sponsorships are given to support students that the school identifies as in need/worthy of financial support. As far as I am aware, the school will have its own criteria for these awards (which itself is far from transparent but I have delved as far as I can into the sponsorships in the school that my dd attended and none seem to have nationality as a criteria). So it unsettles me that this particular sponsorship does have nationality as a criteria as it excludes most applicants regardless of talent.  IF it ring fences places in year groups where there are only a set and relatively inflexible number of places available, it will limit opportunities for all other applicants regardless of talent or nationality. Of course, that ‘if’ remains unanswered. As I stated in an earlier post, my understanding was that Royal did have a set number of places in each year group, certainly in lower school. This may not be the case, in which case I am happy to be corrected. 

Is there any indication of ring-fencing? 

1 minute ago, Out-the-other-side said:

From our experience (not RBS) corporate sponsorships are given to support students that the school identifies as in need/worthy of financial support. As far as I am aware, the school will have its own criteria for these awards (which itself is far from transparent but I have delved as far as I can into the sponsorships in the school that my dd attended and none seem to have nationality as a criteria). So it unsettles me that this particular sponsorship does have nationality as a criteria as it excludes most applicants regardless of talent.  IF it ring fences places in year groups where there are only a set and relatively inflexible number of places available, it will limit opportunities for all other applicants regardless of talent or nationality. Of course, that ‘if’ remains unanswered. As I stated in an earlier post, my understanding was that Royal did have a set number of places in each year group, certainly in lower school. This may not be the case, in which case I am happy to be corrected. 

As I understand the size of the class is variable from year to year