Ballet Saga

6 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

Watching live performances can be helpful but there are some documentaries on YouTube which are very valuable to watch. The ENB one (sadly I think only part one is available now but it was originally a three parter) was really insightful. It shows the pressure the company was under, how particular ADs and choreographers can be, how numerous freelance dancers are used for Swan Lake but if they have to be corrected more than twice then they are out and replaced, how even principals can be treated badly by those in charge and how promotions/hiring are managed.

I made mine watch when they were 14 & 12 to show them realities of company life. 
Titled Agony and ecstasy a year with ENB.

My son watched this and then I watched it with him and I was surprised it didn’t put him off! He was just fascinated! (It was an eye opener!) 

2 hours ago, Emeralds said:

School trips or group trips (rather like playdates or birthday trips with a small group of friends in lieu of a party) may be more cost effective than one parent taking one child to see a live performance. The parents of the invited children are generally pleased to for their child's ticket in lieu of buying a birthday gift. Many theatres will offer discounts to under 16s (some may stipulate a maximum of 2 or 4 child tickets per every adult ticket but that still works out cheaper than every child being accompanied by a parent).

 

Outings with grandparents/godparents may also be another opportunity for ballet student offspring to attend live performances. 

 

When your ballet student offspring turns 16, I recommend signing them up for schemes like Sadler's Wells' Dance Pass  which really helps- eg SWDP is very good because both the teen AND a parent/friend/adult can get a DP ticket for £10 each - while stocks last though. It's only discounted for one performance per production, ie you cannot use it to see BRB in 3 shows of Sleeping Beauty, for example. But you can see 3 different dance companies in 1 month at £10 each for the teen and parent going together). 

That’s a good idea 

29 minutes ago, Geoff said:

I don’t know much about studying to be a plumber and less about ballet schools, but let’s take two comparators I am more familiar with, the acting profession and television. It has always been the case that the UK graduates far more trained young actors than there is available work, hence the glut of “resting” actors in other professions (including plumbing) while they wait for an acting job.

 

And as for “media studies” (the university course that young people who want to work in tv seem to choose) the balance is if anything even more extreme.
 

However the training institutions make money so long as people want to sign on for the course of study, so where is the motivation to limit the number of places offered? 
 

I suppose the difference with ballet is how you have to stay in some form of training while waiting for a job (to keep up fitness and technique). So another motivator to go to a graduate scheme rather than get a regular job and keep auditioning. Yes the schemes won’t turn away paying customers! But they will know that most of the graduates won’t get a job, or not a job that is sustainable without outside help. 

11 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Parents are a slice of society. 
Society in the UK does not lean towards watching Ballet. If it did, then people would be queuing to get into ROH in the same way they do to get into Tottenham football ground and no Graduates would be struggling to get a job. Maybe we should change society? Or Ballet?

Are we saying to parents that to start your child at Ballet Class you must also show an appreciation in this art?  To give her support to make a career in this art, you must also accompany him/her to performances? Because if you don't, their chances of getting employment will be less? Because this sounds very dangerous to me for lots of reasons.

 
We are all aware of actors and musicians, tennis players etc who have lived and breathed in that culture since they were tiny. Soaked up every minute detail of their environment through their parents interest/ job or the culture they inhabited.

Then there are those few whose talent is so innate and intrinsic that it doesn't matter that they had no support or background knowledge. They've come to it by surprise. They have only a little knowledge in their craft. These people  will be superstars too and can produce as deeply textured performances as the rest and possibly more unique.

My message  - don't panic if your child  hasn't seen so many performances. Just do what you can.

I’m sure that’s a rarity. Whatever your talent you still need training and to experience the reality of it. Maybe it’s a bit of a myth what you’re saying? 
 

Who says there is a need to panic? (Can’t people handle someone’s opinion?) I said further up that a couple of live performances a year is surely a good thing. No one is saying go and see ALL the ballets. I also said go and see all dance. If your child isn’t interested in seeing live performances, is this really the route for them? 
 

Plus we moan about the lack of jobs but many seem to think that it’s someone else’s responsibility, rather than us the audience. It’s a responsibility of us all. How can I in good conscience moan about the lack of jobs if I don’t go and see live performances? 
 

And yes if your child takes a SERIOUS interest in ballet you should learn to appreciate the art and support them. Nowhere did I say not seeing live performances will stop you gaining employment, but I would go as far to say as it will hinder your training. Or at the very least you will lose out on something very beneficial.
 

21 minutes ago, Allwrong said:

DD discovered the ROH insights aged 14, and has been hooked on them ever since. They have also led to her branching out to non RB choreographers. By 16 she was really well informed about numerous classical choreographers, styles and traditions. A rich education for free, supplemented by second hand books for next to nothing. Live-stream cinema tickets and £9-11 ROH restricted view tickets have been birthday and Christmas-list staples for  some years (great for grandparents suggestions). Megabus and the great good fortune of cousins in London has meant that ROH live could work out cheaper than the rather pricey cinema, despite being in the provinces.

So it can be done cheaply, but depends on the child being interested. Honestly, it was cheaper and less of a toll on the family to leave her in her room watching ballet videos than ferrying her to ballet classes! Her enthusiasm for watching may well come from her having a rather meagre diet of classes. 

I love seeing my child watch a live performance. He is mesmerised (and still, which he has a hard time being!) and it makes it very clear how much he loves ballet. Which makes all the sacrifices worth it. I don’t know if my child wasn’t interested I would be willing to do all I do when it comes to his training. 
 

I think there is a link here to the amount of graduates and jobs available. 

2 minutes ago, Raquelle said:

It's not just about finances (although it plays a major role). It also depends on where you live and whether you have access to live performances.....lots of factors at play, so perhaps a bit simplistic to assume it's about priorities. I do agree though, important to try to get to live performances, if you can....but there are barriers x 

There are barriers to many things in life. Including the training. But somehow we’ve made that happen for our kids? 
 

Where you live is a barrier (but then many go away to foreign places for holidays travelling hundreds of miles…) 

Maybe the truth is that a lot of families are disinterested. Obviously not all and yes it can be difficult. 

3 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Perhaps teachers could do more?

Perhaps Vocational schools could do more? To bridge the ever widening gap between watching and learning from performances and learning in the classroom? As a teacher, I purchased tickets on behalf of my school whenever possible and actively encouraged students to attend performances as a school event. I had a stock of dvds, blast from the past) that students could borrow ranging from Balanchine, Bournenville, Ashton. I encouraged them to watch and discuss at the end of class even though time was limited. Often we would try to do an enchainment in different styles with some hilarious results. But we were still thinking about the bigger picture.

Since my Dd entered vocational training, she very rarely saw a performance until her final year of upper school when they were encouraged to go. So many opportunities for them to watch amazing live performances, speak to dancers etc which certainly in lower school, were ignored.

Everyone could do more. Schools, parents. I understand families can only do their best but there are far too many who don’t even see it as important or understand why it is. It’s bottom of the list.  I’m very low income but I have managed because I see the importance of it. How can I expect my child to be a professional dancer without him seeing live performances, and also supporting live performances? 
 

I can very clearly see how it has enhanced his training. Plus if he didn’t enjoy watching a ballet I would be saying well what’s the point in training to perform in one then? 

6 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

I’m a parent who didn’t take my 2 vocational ballet children to see ballets.

For one, it is very expensive, especially for families not only paying for their children’s vocational training but for all the extras that go with it. 
And two, they didn’t want too. When you eat, sleep and breathe ballet from the second you open your eyes til the second you go to bed, the last thing they wanted to do when they were home for a very short time was to go and watch a ballet. 
The school made them go and watch every new BRB performance and then charged the parents for it 🤣 

That’s good they got to see all the BRB performances! 
 

It really doesn’t have to be expensive to see a live performance. I’ve managed it and I’m very low income! 

1 hour ago, Ruby Foo said:

Are you saying that kids who don't get a chance to watch ballets regularly have less chance at becoming a dancer? Because I don't believe that's true. 

I agree with Pas de Quatre. 
 

How can a dancer in training know what’s expected of them if they don’t see live performances? It’s an integral part of their training. 
 

I wonder how many successful ballet dancers didn’t see performances regularly? Obviously it’s hard to know but I doubt it’s many. 
 

It also doesn’t have to be expensive. Seeing all sorts of dance is beneficial. A lot of the schools have graduate companies and it’s not expensive to go and see them. It’s also supporting the schools and companies that’s important. 
 

It might be a sweeping statement to you but I have met a lot of people with children who are in training and I can count on one hand the amount of them who bother taking their child to a live performance. And for a lot it’s nothing to do with being financially able. 
 

22 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Even if one can't get to live ballet performances,  which is always something special, there is a wealth of performances  available free online, often on YouTube.  Unfortunately I find that today's students often aren't the least bit interested in watching any of it, and have never heard of historically important dancers,  choreographers and composers.

Yet they want to become a dancer. Madness! 

1 hour ago, Ruby Foo said:

You're so right!

I have an elderly mother suffering with Alzheimer's in a care home who has needed my financial support and time for the past 7 years. Plus 3 other children who have needs that don't include going to the Ballet which, sadly they don't enjoy or have any interest in ( my husband has been known to nod off at several).They are my priority. Having a child at a vocational school ( as a day student) takes up way more than their fair share of their quota of the finances and time! What's left is for the rest of the family.

Thats my priority.

Of course you can find cheaper tickets if you're prepared to spend the time surfing and put up with the uncertainty of not planning ahead. 
I wish I had gone to more Ballets with my daughter, would have been lovely and given her a more well rounded and culturally rich arena to place herself and her training. But logistically there were formidable reasons I didn't and so it will be for many families.

Only replying to your post due to your tone of surprise and shock that more people don't find the time and money to go and watch Ballets. Seemed a little naive.

Not naive at all. I know many families who go on long holidays etc and a myriad of other luxurious activities but moan about the cost of a ballet ticket! Which can be very cheap. And not just ballet, any dance. I’m sorry if I hit a nerve with you but that’s your life and you don’t need to defend anyone else’s life. Can we just be real and admit that there are lots of people that could easily go and see performances and don’t? I don’t understand why people get so defensive about this issue. How can you be serious about your child becoming a ballet dancer and not take them to watch dance? 

5 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

So very true. If you live in the London area, you will need a small fortune to purchase a couple of seats for the Ballet, unless you are seated in the Gods, which is still expensive. Not so many people have that sort of money, especially if they have kids training. The kids at school could go and try to get a standing only spot, so my Dd saw quite a few that way. Nearly passed out a few times, but still.

If you live in London you have the opportunity to get last minute tickets and there are definitely ways and means to see the ballet cheaply. Also there are more dance performances in general to go and see. Which is important for a dancer in training. 

26 minutes ago, Raquelle said:

Some ballet parents can't afford to watch ballets due to the cost of training 🙄... as sadly there is very little disposable income left over once fees have been paid (we have an mds scholarship too). We did enjoy watching Swan lake in the cinema though! Although not quite the same! X 

Yes it’s great that some are shown in the cinema now. Some performances cost the same as the cinema if you can get to them. It should be a priority to at least see a couple of live performances a year surely? 
 

Sometimes it’s down to priorities isn’t it? 
 

It also doesn’t always have to be the Royal Ballet etc. Some smaller companies tour performances and the ticket price is very reasonable. I’m seeing a short performance in June for just £12.50 (and that’s all tickets at that price). 

12 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I have absolutely no issue with hugely talented Principal level dancers of all nationalities performing all around the world  - surely a reward for their hard earned success? As ever was this… But I do question the global position leading to this does it not make sense for dancers to predominantly ‘cut their teeth’ in their ‘home’ environment? & to then be able to earn guesting opportunities as a reward as their cling the ladder?  No it almost seems a reverse situation for Uk nationality dancers anyhow …they have to seek overseas ‘experience’ (ie. Is it actually a paid ‘job’? Or is it an internship/ apprenticeship?these may be stipend subsidised but let’s face it…most likely these still require a level of subsidy from parents or elsewhere…)

This is so unacceptable… do we train more plumbers than needed?  I doubt it…. I suggest we need to try match the desire for watching the arts with the desire for jobs in the arts… I know of so many families who have sacrificed ed so much for one family  member to train to pro level who in the main have no interest/desire to then watch said art form. I am so often amazed at how many I dance training be it recreational or vocational have seen so few ballets themselves & their finders (usually patents) even less. 

I find this extraordinary that many families who have children training to be ballet dancers, very rarely see the ballet or much dance at all! I know so many who pay out 100s for training and extras but never take their child to the ballet…And moan about the cost of a ticket! 
How can they know what level is expected if they don’t see it for themselves? And how can they not support the ballet? 
 

17 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

When is it time to call it a day ?

How long should a graduate keep applying, auditioning and trying to maintain their level of ballet when it all looks so bleak ?

What are the chances of securing that contract one year or two years after graduation without continuing financial support from parents ?

In my experience, I’m not sure whether it is all worth it in the end. 

I’ve heard of some graduates doing more than one graduate year. And now more schemes like that are popping up. So even more schools making promises! 

39 minutes ago, Birdy said:

I can tell you that students at some of the top schools in the world are struggling to find spots. Perhaps some of the 950 who submitted pre screening videos were not up to the standard, but there are indeed a lot of extremely talented dancers struggling to find jobs. There are just too many qualified dancers for too few spots.

So too many schools then? Too many opportunities? Just a thought! I’m sure there are many talented dancers but the companies must pick the very best. Maybe the goal posts have changed and expectations are higher. 

1 hour ago, sillysally said:

HI all, 

 

In the current 2024 audition season starter positions advertised across UK/Europe (apprentice, trainee, corp) are regularly attracting 500 plus applications. Preselected auditions regularly consist of 120+ dancers. I understand from many other families of 2023 graduates that it was a similar situation last year. I dont know if the shortage of jobs is due to Covid, increase in number of well trained graduate dancers, dwindling ticket sales, dancers retiring older....

 

I am shocked and truthfully saddened that Christopher Marney is surprised by the current industry situation. The London City audition was for ALL levels, ALL positions.  It is not surprising he received over 930 applications.  Surely any new dance venture needs to totally aware of what the current market place is and what the paying public want to watch, if its to have a chance of success??????

Too many schools is also part of the problem leading to too many graduates. I wonder how many of the 950 who auditioned were actually at the standard that’s needed? Just a thought as I have no idea! But it is something that crosses my mind. Does that skew the impression that there are no jobs? 

My advice would be don’t go too mad! You can always send things if they need them, and they’ll be home regularly. 
A sharpie is the best way to label things. 
You usually don’t need any extra furniture, the rooms will likely be small and the kids that bring masses of extras just take up all the room! 
 

46 minutes ago, PrancingMum said:

Add Elm to this list - a few join having done Adv2 and with YAGP experience.

17 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

The main thing to remember is that the international audition candidates for some upper schools will be dancing at the equivalent of ADV2 +, particularly for RBS and ENBS entry, and some may well have competed in the likes of YAGP and Prix de Lausanne already. Those two schools are exceptionally difficult to get into - you are competing with some of the best in the world for places. Don't underestimate what they are looking for. 

 

The prelim auditions for most schools will contain work at around Inter/Adv1 level. It's a few years since dd did hers, but it can't have changed all that much.

 

My son has recently done all of these finals (including Elmhurst) and he said ENBS was the hardest (but then again they only did one round this year). 
 

It’s really hard when it comes to exams as they don’t mark you on physique or what a particular school is looking for. 
 

Rather than exams achieved I would be concentrating on technique. 

My son only ever took his intermediate. But he has worked extremely hard over the last couple of years perfecting his technique and that’s what has done him well, not exams. 
 

32 minutes ago, elliej1497 said:

Hi,

I live in the north of England. I'm 26 years old and am currently studying for a degree with the Open University. I have one more year to go and am starting to think about my options for afterwards! I used to dance as a kid and have recently got back into it (quite intensively!). I always wanted to go to dance college when I was younger but wasn't able to, and now that's something I'd like to pursue if there's an option to. Are there any one year intensive courses for postgraduates? I found a CertHE at the Northern School of Contemporary Dance which looked good but as I'm already funding my studies with a student loan, I'm not sure how I'd fund it. I'm looking for a course that covers lots of different styles. Any advice welcome!

You could try for an MA? Don’t be put off by the eligibility requirements on the websites, contact them directly and plead your case!

You can get a student loan for it. There seems to be quite a few dance MAs that are a year long. 
 

https://www.postgraduatesearch.com/pgs/search?course=dance

2 hours ago, Dancer20 said:

The positive of taking higher exams is the UCAS points that come with them. Some upper schools offer degree courses in the first year and you will need UCAS points for these courses. Unfortunately, if you go away at 16 you will most likely only have GCSE’s which do not qualify for UCAS points. 

In all the auditions my child was not once asked about having any UCAS points 

Agree with above. She’s at the right level. Vocational schools don’t expect more than intermediate by year 11. Plus it doesn’t really matter anyway. What matters is how she dances at the audition, that’s what they will be judging her on. But it’s handy to have your intermediate I would say. 

54 minutes ago, Suffolkgal said:

As only evening perfs are possible for me on this run … first time at cinema event!

I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised! I’ve enjoyed watching at the cinema. 

9 minutes ago, Balletchick said:

Has anyone had a child with significant shyness who has succeeded in dance?

 

My daughter is a lovely little dancer - seems to be progressing really nicely, has got a distinction/honours in all the exams she's taken to date (ISTD primary ballet, ISTD primary tap, juvenile IDTA acro) , picked for the festival team, her teachers love her. She works really hard and is absolutely desperate to be a dancer (although at 6 she's only very young still, so who knows what the future holds!)

 

She's also really, really shy. She's known her dance teachers since 3 and still won't talk in front of them. Weirdly, she's fine on stage performing but whilst she'll nod along in class, she's too shy to talk.

 

She recently auditioned for associates local to her with a couple of her friends. She didn't get a place, and the feedback was that technically she was fine, but she lacked 'character' and was too quiet in class, so they thought she didn't have the passion that others did.

 

She's gutted. We've told her it just wasn't her time this year, and she's still perfect in our eyes. I haven't mentioned that she was too quiet. 
 

Any tips for dealing with this? Is it something we need to overcome for her to progress?

 

(As a teacher (not of dance!) I'd much prefer a quiet, shy child to a noisy one!)

 

 

Does she do any drama classes? That could help her. 
 

I don’t think you need to be a noisy and over the top child to succeed in ballet. And she’s so young, I would just keep encouraging her and she will learn to find her voice. 
 

I honestly wouldn’t be worrying about this right now because of her age. If she still won’t talk to her ballet teachers in a few years then I would be wondering if there is something behind it. Children change dramatically as they grow up. A shy and quiet 6 year old could be an outgoing and loud 12 year old! 

End of next week they should be out.