Out-the-other-side

8 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

It was a genuine suggestion.

 

Musing is all very well but it doesn't provide an answer that only Carlos Acosta can give about his level of commitment.

Thank you for clarifying. Even if I had the incentive to email ( I don’t - DD is as my name suggests, out the other side) I’m sure the any response would be he is giving as much of his time to Elmhurst as his schedule allows. And this may well be equal to, if not greater than, Mr Bintley. Or maybe they were the golden years but we just didn’t know it??? I do know, however, that the association with BRB is a big selling point for the school and so transparency about what this actually looks like on the ground should be a given. 

3 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I've no idea but you could write and ask him.

Hmm it’s always difficult to detect ‘tone’ in a written message but I very much doubt you are seriously suggesting that it would be credible for a member of the general public (albeit with an historic link to Elmhurst) to ask the question ‘Are you as committed to the students of your associate school as your predecessor?’ 
As Elmhurst continue to sell themselves as ‘in association with Birmingham Royal Ballet’, I think it’s fair enough to muse on whether this relationship has changed. That was why I asked the genuine question of how much actual, day to day involvement he has with the school as we have personal experience of what that looked like under David Bintley. Maybe a current Elmhurst parent can answer that. 

18 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

I don't know how often Carlos Acosta visits Elmhurst but I know that he does.  He seems passionate about the education of children in dance.

I don’t doubt that he is but is he as passionate about the Elmhurst students as his predecessor was (and the wonderful Marion Tate) or is that ‘special relationship’ a thing of the past? 

How frequently does Carlos Acosta visit Elmhurst? David Bintley was a very frequent visitor to the school - working with students, adjudicating internal competitions etc. This, I’m sure was, at least in part, due to his strong relationship with Robert Parker. I’d be genuinely interested to know if this is continuing under Carlos’s tenure. He is vice president of the school after all. (He is both a governor and on the Advisory Council at the RBS.) 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-68215432?at_medium=social&at_link_id=5E7DDD8C-C658-11EE-810D-1A39AAF30DC0&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBC_Midlands&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign_type=owned&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_ptr_name=facebook_page&fbclid=IwAR2FdELkq2HS0D2kIMRCphbUopyrpBNHjtVyxXFkettBVSa1fsVb1Vy8Cd4_aem_AYAeqH2Z3qyejWgPWLQdLhe9I_BSgOk1f1sFjFCEpDbs5coAV4AgDVtmzKAbtTtTRPE

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2023-blogs/abuse-in-ballet-update/

Quote: my clients and I are requesting the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to conduct an inquiry into allegations of body shaming and other abuse in ballet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001thyv

from 1 hour 4 minutes 

9 hours ago, TiredOfThis said:

My DC found this too. It was because dance was not in any way relevant to the courses they were looking at (sciences) unfortunately. DC still dances but has given up on dance exams (for now). 

I’m so surprised to hear this as feel there should be consistency! My daughter’s degree (LLB)  is  totally unrelated also - how annoying for your dd! 

Annette Nicholson’s studio is in Digbeth-  a short walk from Birmingham Moor Street (5 mins more to New Street). 

Annette is an outstanding teacher with vast experience of working with vocational students. If I’d known about her sooner, I would have definitely had my dd train with her for the lower school years. 

3 minutes ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

The diploma is the basis of the sixth form at Elmhurst, ENBS and RBS. It is not optional and all students complete (or pursue) the diploma as 80 percent is earned through the in-studio artistic dance training. My understanding is that at Elmhurst and RBS, the A-levels are optional for all students, not only international students. Often international students don't take A-levels or only take one A-level and use the in-school time to complete degrees in their home countries. This flexibility is appreciated, and of course the international students continuing on outside degrees from other countries must be extremely disciplined to get it all done. 

There is also the option to complete an EPQ (Extended Project Qualification) alongside A levels. This is a level 3 qualification that carries UCAS points. 

4 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Just want to add to what I said earlier, that I think it is REALLY important to get as good a set of GCSEs as possible (for those outside the UK these are the exams which our teenagers take at 16). This will set them in good stead to pick up academic study later if that's what they want to do. I just think that when it comes to that hard gained once in a lifetime opportunity of upper school, it should be embraced fully.

 

I agree that the dance should be the focus and of course every student is different but I do feel there is probably a limit to how much physical exertion a body can safely do in one day. My DD is of the personality type that she would have just continued to push her body in the studio and the gym if she hadn’t had to break to study.  (Plus, as alluded to in the Panorama thread, a safe space away from the studio with non dancing, often very supportive academic teachers is a godsend) Of course, there is always the third, post A level graduate year to really strive for the dance goal.
Elmhurst really pushed the plan B and of course none of them felt at the time they were going to need it. But psychologically, for  my DD at least, when covid derailed plan A, to feel plan B was already in place helped ease the sense of panic. To be able to move fairly seamlessly to uni life, not feeling she had to ‘start over’, was incredibly important for her mental well being. This, of course, may not be the case for every dancer.

It is worth noting that for many (if not all) unis,  A levels needed to have been awarded in the same year (ie you couldn’t top up with a third A level studied later) This precludes the more prestigious Russell group unis who need certain grades in 3 A levels. Those operating on a UCAS points system were for us the only option - and boy were we glad of that random one-off Cecchetti exam she sat in year 10…🤣

8 minutes ago, Aurora3 said:

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

The issue is that for many they are not offended by what they hear -  they believe it, internalise it and  carry it as emotional baggage for many years to come.

On 13/09/2023 at 10:27, Peanut68 said:

As an ex Elm from the 1980’s era a while back I thought it’d be interesting to see if there weee any ex alumni groups out there….found one on Facebook with a photo including recognised dancers  of my year group (clearly the mid 80’s in shiny catsuits & ankle warmers!!) 

The make of the group?

The Elmhurst Survivors….!!

says it all….

And I thought everyone but me was having a great experience there!! 

This group seems to have been removed from Facebook or perhaps just hidden? (Although a private group, it was always visible before) 

Does anyone have any idea what might have happened? I thought it might be a useful source of experiences to back up any future investigations. (Unless the name was unintentionally misleading) 

5 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

I wouldn't expect any response at all from the King, who is after all only a figurehead (although I suspect that someone from the palace has been seconded to take a look), nor from OFSTED as yet, who would not want to be going off half-cocked without taking a good rummage through their records first.

The carefully curated records…

19 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

Not all of them have moved on. The problem is that however good the official policies are, however well-intentioned the principal is (and she is, at Elmhurst, in my opinion, based on our experience), if the day to day ballet teaching is not monitored or corrected then the actual implementation of any policies is left completely to chance, dependent on the whims of individual teachers.

Sorry I should have clarified - those referenced in the documentary no longer teach at the school (but do elsewhere which is one of my biggest issues) 

46 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

The list I provided was some of what my dd personally experienced. I can't put the rest as it is too identifying. 

 

More from us…(Elmhurst first hand experience) 

- preferential treatment/casting towards students with sponsors

- Casting on the basis of costume size 

- inappropriate behaviour from invited choreographers (sexual language, homophobic comments, remarks about weight - taking students out of the piece if they dared to complain)

- Being told by the AD that a hearing loss ‘isn’t a problem till it’s a problem.’

- teachers being told about said hearing loss and how they can help (please look at them when speaking, try not to give too many corrections to them individually whilst piano is playing etc) and blatantly ignoring it - then screaming at them for ‘not listening’

- houseparents handing out excessive punishments and making judgements about the students’ moral characters 

- an AD who had no idea of a students strengths and weaknesses despite leading their appraisals for 8 years 

I do have to say though that for us the health and well being care we received both following an eating disorder and a subsequent significant injury was exceptional. 
I am incredibly sad that this huge cloud is hanging over the whole of the artistic team when there are some amazing, nurturing, compassionate and dedicated dance teachers there too - the one who was always on the end of the phone; the one who cried genuine tears over the injury; the one who first referred to them as women and not girls thus validating the bodies that in the previous year they had learned to be ashamed of; the one who spent time after class helping work on corrections; the ones who never ever said an unkind word. Meanwhile, those accused have moved on to teach elsewhere and are not even in the spotlight that they created. 

- 

26 minutes ago, Thelittleswans said:

on 15 September, a whistleblowing line for the general public is also available on 0800 028 0970 for anyone who feels they can't directly raise a concern with the School. The line is staffed by independent experts and is available to call from 9.00 to 21.00 daily.

Interesting! Is this just for RBS or Elmhurst too? 

59 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

Here we are presented with 4 cases and make concluding remarks. How about the thousands of others with different experiences 

Panorama interviewed 50. If you listen  to the radio 4 programme, Terry Hyde is interviewed who has supported many more. Luke Jennings has experience of countless others. This is prevalent and damaging. 

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

2 minutes ago, Tulip said:

Well that might require naming teachers, then they could defend their behaviour, it certainly would be interesting to hear their side of events. 

And whilst they remain unnamed, the good, compassionate teachers who are at these schools are living under this cloud which is also incredibly unfair. 

16 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Is what is going on any different to normal state schools letting children with any form of learning issues down? I think it’s something about society as a whole that we tell our children perfectionism and success are all that’s matters. Children suffering intense mental issues because they’re not making the grades etc. Social media telling young people what the ‘ideal body’ is. 
Add this to the already pressurised environment of trying to become a pro ballet dancer, it’s not surprising issues arise. 
Yes the schools of course have to be aware of it and do all they can to stop any eating disorders/mental health issues develop, but also where are the parents? I’m sure some of them put the pressure on their children too…We’ve all seen it.

Also, there aren’t just two vocational ballet schools in the UK. The others have got away with it where this documentary is concerned! 
It’s a shame the documentary only decided to look at eating disorders and didn’t delve into all the other issues at these schools. It probably did that because it’s more entertaining for the general public to watch. They expect these schools to have these issues. It’s brought nothing new to light. 
 

I’m not sure anyone would describe the programme as entertaining…

The very fact that it has bought nothing new to light is surely one of the issues - nothing has changed to make these institutions accept responsibility, act appropriately to safeguard their pupils and to ensure that students leaving them, whether successful in gaining employment or not, are not left struggling with trauma induced by the very people we as parents entrust the well being of our children to. 

I should just also add, as has been referenced in many previous threads, it is practically impossible to speak out whilst still within the system. 

Just now, Sim said:

I have no intention of being pedantic, so I am not going to argue the meaning of the word 'several.'  You bring up some good points so let's concentrate on those.  I was not implying in my post that things have got better because the students interviewed are all ex-students.  Someone asked for a summary, so I gave as much detail as possible.  I am not in a position to say whether things have changed and what is going on now.  

Thank you for clarifying. I think those of us who have children affected are just so anxious that this become the moment of change. 

10 minutes ago, Sim said:

That's your opinion. I would say three is several.  And I really don't want to get into a debate about it.  There are more important issues to be discussed.

If we are going to be pedantic, several is more than 3 but my daughter, very much impacted and in the same cohort as one of the dancers featured left 2 years ago. Regardless of how long ago the abuse took place, (I choose my words carefully as someone who deals with safeguarding in education as a daily part of my job)  these students and their families are still very much living with the impact of this whether that is 1, 2 or 10 years down the line . The issue is that the culture has not changed, that teachers known to have these outdated practices are still working with vulnerable young people both within and outside of these institutions and that unless this is acknowledged we will still be having these conversations in 10 years time.