godots_arrived

Sometimes I think we just need a bit of OTT fun in our lives!

 

 

Now I'll probably get into deep water as I love ballet but my knowledge only comes from my own experience mostly and am not as well read as I probably should be and definitely others on this forum have this in depth knowledge.

 

I think any Art if it is valuable has to enhance our humanity in some way.

 

There are many aspects to being human so Art has a broad spectrum to influence us (or not )

just being able to put us in touch with the joyful ness of Life may be one of Arts greatest achievements!

 

The Bolshoi Company did this for me ....via art form of ballet.....last Wednesday and many thanks to them for that experience!! Albeit a different ballet

 

 

But I might equally go and see a performance of Les Mis and be very moved by that performance and understand the precariousness of Human Life a little better....who knows?

 

I'm not keen to compare art forms in this way because on any one day you may be open to something and the next day not.....within all Art forms not just ballet.

Interesting concepts, whether I agree with you or not (and sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.)

I think pretty much all art does enhance someone's humanity in some way but that doesn't make it objectively "good art." To the mechanic in the Deep South of the USA, an image of Elvis painted on a black velvet background may well be life enhancing and have merit because of that. But it isn't "great art." It's kitsch. The fact is that any artistic output can provide an emotional response/stimulus for some viewers but there remains value in debating what, and why, "high" art differs from "low" art (not using those terms pejoratively, by the way.) It is the existence of, say, Flames that enhances the genius of, say, Don Quixote. I don't think anyone would pretend that enjoyable as it is (and it IS enjoyable) that Les Mis plumbs the same emotional depths as, say, Mahler 9. A musicologist could quickly spell out the reasons. So yes, there are many aspects to being human and yes, there are many aspects in all art forms that we respond to. But there are, nevertheless, ways in which we can judge the quality of an art -- be that technique in dance or otherwise. Which is why I said that I enjoyed Flames in a general way but I thought it had clear shortcomings as a ballet and as a result I felt some of the laudatory comments were simply OTT. That doesn't mean I don't think people have the right to make them. Sorry, but that's my view. If you choose to see that as an over-intellectualisation or criticism well, fair enough. But that wasn't my intention in writing.

Funnily enough, I think your point about preferring not to compare art forms runs counter to the main thrust of your argument. If emotional response is the most critical factor for you then it is precisely because of this that we CAN and should compare art forms because audience impact is the one thing, as you pointed out initially, that is common to the weighing up of any artwork. Besides, it's interesting to draw analogies, isn't it, rather than keeping any one artistic discipline in its own box? Understanding 20th century ballet is indivisible from context; what was happening in music, art, etc. All artforms tend to influence each other and express the same contemporaneous themes.

1.  The only reason you would rain on anyone's parade, Godot, is your statement about this being more like a fan site than a critical forum.  

 

2. You should also note that not everybody who goes to see art then wants to intellectualise it and analyse it.  Many people go for the pure emotional response it elicits within them, and they then want to share this.  If they are excited about something, or very happy about the effect a performance has had on them, those opinions are just as valid as yours, and we don't expect them to be referred to by anybody as 'hagiography' or 'histrionic' .

 

3.  Oh, and the music from Flames "would appeal to those balletomanes who are more inclined to Les Mis than art music".  Really?  I hate Les Mis but quite like the Flames music.  And no, I wouldn't listen to it without it being accompanied by a performance, but I can say the same for a lot of ballet music.

 

4. I do apologise if we aren't all up to your very intellectually advanced perceptions of art.

1. Actually what I said, or at least meant, was not that this site as a whole was a fan site but that the specific thread about Flames of Paris read like hagiography.  There's a big difference.  OK, perhaps everyone really did think the performance was in every way perfect. For me, it wasn't. But the level of adulation in this specific thread did not represent, in my view, the overall quality of the evening.  Otherwise, I agree with all your general comments about the site.

2.  Fair enough.

3. Yes, really.  As a piece of serious music with a life of its own, it doesn't stand up. The fact that some other ballets have weak scores is beside the point. I wasn't talking about other ballets; I was critiquing Flames of Paris.  It used to be said (if you lived in New York) that if you went to ABT the dancing might be bad on any given night but you'd always get a great show.  If you went to NYCB, the dancing might be off but you'd always get a great concert. Flames falls squarely into the former category (for me, anyway.)

4. You've rather shot yourself in the foot. In point 2 you defend the right of some to respond in a purely emotional way (and you are right to do so) but here you criticise me for responding in an analytical way. We either all have the right to respond based on our individual characters or none of us do!

1.  Soviet isn't the dirty word you assume when referring to ballet as the art form flourished during the Soviet period which spanned pretty much the entire 20th century. 

 

2.  As to the score, there are actually two composers in there, did you pick up on that? 

 

3.  How I love the Bolshoi's corps de ballet!  They don't simply stand at the back watching the action, each and every one is a clearly defined character in their own right, a perfect living, breathing backdrop to the action centre stage, the character dancers come to the fore in this here too, indeed even the principals can be considered character dancers in this ballet. 

 

4. What is OTT for some is an expression of shared happiness for most.

Well, that put the cat among the pigeons.

I've number the points I want to respond to for clarity only, since I lack the technical skills to excerpt particular quotes. So, here goes.

1.  There's a difference, I would say, in terms of flourishing in terms of sheer output and prevalence versus flourishing in terms of quality. You could argue that Soviet art (particularly folk art) "flourished" in terms of volume in the Soviet period, but it didn't flourish in any other sense.

2.  My comment about the score related to Swan Lake, not Flames of Paris (please re-read, although I may not have articulated that clearly enough). The removal of the section I highlighted pertains to Tchaikovsky's score.

3. Very good point. Agree. And nicely put.

4.  Hmmmmm. Debatable (not that I'm trying to start a debate.) There are, surely, absolutes in terms of what constitutes a great performance? That doesn't preclude everyone having the right to their own tastes though, I agree.

Having let the peformance settle and given myself two days to think about it rather than respond histrionically, my thoughts on Flames of Paris (Saturday night) are somewhat at odds with those of other posters. Putting my neck on the block (particularly as a newcomer here), a lot of the reviews on the forum seem to me to be more suited to a fan club magazine than an objective bulletin board (albeit one where devotees gather.) Some posts on hagiography.

From a dancing perspective, just as in the Swan Lake, the technique and sheer virtuousity of both soloists and corps cannot be faulted. The ensemble dancing, in particular, has struck me as riveting and near unrivalled in my experience of watching ballet. In so far as characterisation goes it’s, well, Russian. On Saturday, Lantratov in particular was compelling; athletic and graceful at once although “dancing for the crowd” seemed to be at least as much a priority as staying in character/driving the narrative. Yes, he’s a star…but in terms of sheer charisma he’s no Nureyev.

Narrative, for me, has been an issue in both the performances I’ve seen. Particularly in Swan Lake; narrative-free and presented as a series of virtuoso set-pieces with, to add insult to injury, unforgiveable cuts to the score (the end was a crime against humanity, let alone ballet) I found the dancing absorbing but the performance hard work.

With regard to Flames, I had mixed feelings. It’s a thinly veiled excuse for showstopping dances and Soviet-era propaganda so far as I can tell…I can well imagine Uncle Joe smiling in his Bolshoi box as he watched the audience being fed the approved party line. Soviet realism goes to the ballet, if you like. The lightweight score doesn’t help its appeal; it has few redeeming features musically (although no doubt it appeals to balletomanes more inclined to Les Mis than art music.)  You could never imagine this being played in a concert hall, something you wouldn’t say about most of the other traditional ballets.

Maria Alexandrova, I thought, was somewhat listless early in the ballet but took off particularly in Act 2 where her dancing matched and provided an exciting foil for Lantratov. The crowd-milking, while expressions of joy are always welcome and many of you clearly enjoyed it, was simply misplaced and too OTT for me. It took the performers outside the context once too often and, as I’ve said, turned a story-ballet into a random event. I’ve seen plenty of great dances express joy through dance, not through mugging for the crowd and skidding under the descending curtain.

Lest you think I am being over-critical, I have loved watching the dancing in both Swan Lake and Flames of Paris. But I haven’t enjoyed the peformances particularly in so far as the parts, for me, having been very much greater than the sums. I’ve seen many technically poorer dances deliver more emotional, in-character interpretations. I’m also pretty sure the phrase “less is more” has no Russian equivalent.

Anyway, can’t wait for Le Corsaire (assuming I snag a ticket!) Sorry if this is seen as raining on anyone’s parade.

I would go for the "Stalin" myself. It has a long history of influencing top ballet examiners :-)

It sounds as if a number of you would benefit from attending my course in "How to be Functionally Useless."  Many years of research have gone into building the curriculum and the joys of flaneur-dom await successful graduates. Please message me for dates and costs.

In my experience, American audiences, like any audiences, are extremely hit and miss.  It all depends on luck and luck alone.  

Interesting idea. I've never tried to hit anyone in an audience but I'm tempted to give your suggestion a go :-)

It seems obvious to me that the solution here is for someone to choreograph a piece to Cage's 4'33". Problem solved!

I suppose different models of company have different models of art director. There isn't one universal job description for the title. Companies built around the founder/ADs artistic output (from, say, Balanchine to Mark Morris to Martha Graham) really can't have sell-by dates attached as long as the artistic output remains relevant, innovative, high quality and progressive. Companies that subscribe to a more diverse repertoire may in one sense be more creatively contained by persevering with one AD for a long period but then conversely the breadth of that repertoire makes them less dependent on him for creative direction and the ADs success has to be measured by different/additional achievements and criteria. I suppose it's a matter of having to take each company on a case by case basis: I don't think there's a universal standard you can apply to the ideal length of an ADs tenure.

I was reading et another article trying to explain the Donald Trump phenomenon in the USA, and the author was saying that it was mostly about a rejection of European "high culture." In other words, the revenge of Nascar fans against opera fans. The last couple of sentences in the article made me think of this thread.

This claim strikes me as somewhat ironic as America has in many ways become the keeper of the flame when it comes to Western classical art forms (music/dance/etc.) largely due to its huge philanthropic sector and, thus, sizable funding for and investment in the arts. I don't really agree that there's a rejection of high culture over there; for one thing there's far less intra-class resentment in the States than there is over here where opera in particular is a commonly used stick for one class to beat another. In America, the divide is more racial/nationalist and the arts don't really intersect with that. Thus, where an English football fan may very likely direct bitterness towards high culture, the average NASCAR fan frankly couldn't give a toss (and I say that having been to both Daytona and NYCB/ABT, the latter many times and the former once -- which was enough.) Also ironically, my experience is that modern Amercan audiences, perhaps because they take an instinctively reverential view of European high culture, tend to as well if not better behaved during performances than is, increasingly, the case over here. I honestly wonder if UK theatre's shouldn't follow the airline safety card model and put "how to behave in a performance" instructions on each seat. My particular beef is the idiots who think an overture amounts to the provision of free background music while they continue their conversation(s), only grasping the performance has begun when the curtain goes up. Imbeciles!

There have been a number of performances well worth catching up with, all available on iPlayer. I would highlight (for various different reasons) the following as being worth catching up with if you missed them:

Alexander Nevsky on opening night: BBCSO/Oramo. Available to watch here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/ebgv2m#p041lp8j

Missa Solemnis: BBCPO/Noseda. Available to listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/eqjzc8#b07jmsj6

Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 4: Stuttgart RSO/Norrington (Levin): Available to listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/epnbp6#b07lg5yb

Mahler 3: LSO/Haitink: Available to listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e3pn3d#b07m4954

Jupiter Symphony: Aurora Orch/Collon. Astonishing performance from memory: Listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/eqv8gw#b07m56vm

Schumann Violin Concerto: BBCPO/Storgarrds (Zehetmair): Listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/ehpj5v#b07m58xk

To the person who asked, other than the obvious concerts (i.e. Berlin/Rattle) it's generally pretty easy to get tickets for any performance. Promming booked at 9am sharp on the day of the performance on the website with "print at home" tickets are only 7.12 pounds each. I've not failed to get them when I've needed/wanted them. 

Let's not go down this route.

Fair enough, but I do think there's an interesting non-specific point to be discussed -- if not in this thread -- about the role of the arts in any post-war healing process as well as within political structures generally that's important to consider when evaluating performance choices. And in Russia in particular the subversion of the arts (from the denunciations of Shostakovich to the entire school of Soviet Realism) renders almost any composition (music or dance, painting, book etc.) regardless of medium nearly impossible to comment on absent context. Perhaps a topic for another thread though. 

History may explain the names chosen for the characters in this version of Swan Lake but it does not explain the decision  to reduce the ballet to an almost abstract evocation of Swan Lake. The choreographic choices make Prince Siegfried the all dancing centre of the ballet and reduce Odette/Odile to supporting roles. If nothing else this type of treatment of the Petipa/Ivanov ballet provides ample justification for Ratmansky's decision to reconstruct the work so that it is performed in a form that its original  St.Petersburg choreographers might just recognise as their own work..

Could not agree more. I went on Saturday night and for all the technique and virtuosity of the dancers (on display in abundance), I found the performance absolutely denuded of narrative. Everything impressed me, but little moved me. And as for the cut to the score at the end, words fail me!

 

No need to remind about what the German army did on the Russian soil. The Russians were shuddering from German names for a long time after the end of the 2WW.

Grigorovich was still at school then. So let’s exonerate him from changing the names. 

Edited to change the font.

 

If we're going to get into cod history, let's also not forget what the Red Army did in Prussia...and Berlin...and what they didn't bother to do in Warsaw, etc. Once a war is over, culture should be a conduit for peace and reconciliation. Not a haven for continuing the worst traditions of enmity. Let's face it, if Barenboim can find the courage to play Wagner in Jerusalem, Grigorovich surely doesn't need to hide behind decades old war crimes?