Pointytoes

8 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

This is a hard one.  I am not speaking from any knowledge of the training system in the UK or anywhere else.

 

LCB will presumably have had a specific type of dancer the company wanted.  Would it be reasonable to expect them to populate the company with graduates?  As the company is privately funded would the funders have had an expectation that may not have been for graduates?

 

I have heard that graduates sometimes experience integration difficulties into companies because they are not used to performing in a company as compared to school.  A newly started company could not afford (in my opinion) the time for them to settle in.  Many years ago a company I follow was increasing in size and took in about 12 graduates.  From an audience point of view it just did not work and at the end of the year all but 2 or 3 of those graduates left the company.  LCB could not afford to find itself in that position being a company of 14 dancers.

 

Who knows what may happen over the next couple of years when the company is established.

While I agree in general with your thought process Jan about an independent privately funded company wanting  to ensure established experience and a wow factor of a guest lead, my young graduate daughter was among that recall list and like others had to be flown in at much expense to find out once again there never was any intention of appointing new British graduates. A total waste of time! 
Sadly, that was her response to this line up today! 

The removal of the posts above are exactly why the veil of protection around these schools persists. The lack of openness and accountability continues to be protected even by this kind of action from moderators! 
The post above absolutely hit the nail on the head and was articulately and truthfully written. A great shame.
 

5 hours ago, WhatsThePointe said:

This!!!!! So much this!!!! It's just numbers into the machine and if one leaves, no matter,  another takes their place.

4 hours ago, Out-the-other-side said:

There are still teachers like this because the schools in question prioritise protecting their brand rather than the young people in their care. When concerns are raised and investigations take place, these people are allowed simply to quietly leave to teach elsewhere. 

Absolutely, accountability among ballet staff simply does not exist! 

3 hours ago, Jamiel Devernay-Laurence said:

As a product of 4 major dance institutions (and one music!) I would point out that as someone who is now guest teaching/making new creative work at these schools, they are simply unrecognisable from the places I knew as a student.

 

I am not saying whether for better or worse, as I wouldn't know what the new experience this decade is all about - but what I would say is that these are now institutions that are funded differently, focused differently and have a completely new set of teacher to those I knew as recently as the late 2000's.

This may be true, but yet the underlying toxic culture still exists has not changed at all. 
The overhaul of these institutions must be threefold. 
The culture that has always existed, the artistic outcomes for young people and the value of the parents investment in what is supposed to be an education as well. 
Is the taxpayer getting value for money?
I fear that a documentary won’t even begin to unravel the real problems at these top ballet brands. That would take a series of documentaries.

 I very much agree with an above post, whilst parents continue to see certain brands as the be end and all end, a veil of protection around the deep issues within their walls will continue. 
The question panorama and all parents should be asking, are these so called ballet schools in the UK really fit for purpose? I speak from personal experience on both so called top afore mentioned institutions! 

Indeed, here we are at ground zero. 
Three years from now, the RB celebrate their centenary. The leaving year 11 students have been closely followed by a BBC documentary since year 7. In the centenary year, no English female will graduate RB upper school. 
Not exactly a fine inditement of Madame’s legacy. Todays thoughts after all that supposed talent searching. 
 

1 minute ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

If it is not personal experience as explained in the AUP then it is hearsay.

 

If you, as a parent, are talking about your DC and your experiences then that is personal experience.

I can confirm it is. 

22 hours ago, Anna C said:

For me, as an observer, it has been both fascinating, disheartening, and reassuring - the latter because, for various reasons, my daughter took another path - to keep an eye on my daughter’s very large peer group from Associates, summer and Easter schools, and a brief stint at full-time training, and to see how many are still dancing professionally (ie getting paid to perform).  I think I’m correct in saying only 1 or 2 still are. 
 

Of the two girls in dd’s academic year group who were accepted into RBS Upper School in 6.1, neither of them made it into the graduate year.  The problem for British trained girls is not just being accepted into White Lodge, it’s staying at White Lodge for the full 5 years, then getting a place at Upper School, but then lasting the whole 3 years at Upper School and graduating from RBS.  It’s almost impossible, and if White Lodge is to remain a feeder school for RBS Upper School, then at some point, questions probably need to be answered about why more British *trained* - particularly WL and RBS 6.1 and 6.2 trained girls are suddenly not sufficiently well trained to graduate from 6.3.
 

This isn’t a new problem of course, and staying the 3 year course, graduating, and getting a contract is difficult at any ballet school.  Plus, Royal Ballet would not be one of the foremost companies in the world without global talent.  Imagine the company without Nuñez, Kaneko, Choe, Muntagirov, Osipova, as well as Naghdi, Ball, Cuthbertson, Bracewell, Hayward and Campbell?  
 

I don’t give two hoots where a dancer was born; we are incredibly lucky that RB attracts such outstanding dancers from all over the world.  But that’s a different issue to the problem of the disconnect between White Lodge, Upper School, and graduate year at RBS.  
 

 

 

Totally agree with the above statent. However, the real problem begins earlier and what must be looked at is the quality of training in the lower school. Female students are unable to reach the levels needed to compete with students who are hot housed and are trained extensively and often privately for competitions. A class a day at the bar simply does not cut it. 
Absolutely, make this school an international one, bring in the best but train those young students who begin in year 7 and have been talent identified by the AD to the standards required. Please do not have parents buy into the English De Valois dream, it is dead. Remove the patronage if it is now an international Academy lead by an AD who serves as a talent scout globally. But please do not pass these students off statistically as being ‘ Royal Ballet trained’. There are many amazing international dancers. This is not about race or ethnicity, it is about what the purpose is of RB lower school is and the quality of training it provides especially for the young students it takes in.This is an issue that cannot be ignored.

On 16/07/2023 at 17:53, Jan McNulty said:

So hearsay not personal experience @Kerfuffle.  

Not hearsay I can confirm this to be true  as a parent of a year 11 student from this years cohort. 

What a shame that a poem has to sum up many parents/ dancers  feelings on the current state of ballet in this country. Far more concerning is that  many teachers or parents cannot speak out or comment their truths without being silenced. An archaic approach to ballet which still seems to define it. 
A huge well done for your Ode! 
 

Pupils attending vocational school and MA/ SAS has always been a controversial topic. 
Ultimately vocational schools do not own our children and if some parents do not deem RAD classes necessary over having Royal training once a week, then it should be their prerogative. 

If applying for upper school at RB,it is better to have had some access to their training than RAD. RB have a specific way of training not taught at other vocational schools. 
If we had our time again, we would not have given the place up. 
Better to not shut the door completely I believe. Just my musings!

 

Indeed, there is a legal age for a reason, the safeguarding of our children. 
I struggle greatly as an educator that schools continuously strive to teach internet safety and to rigorously safeguard our young people, yet many young children (who are minors) have seemingly such high profiles on social platforms but for whom? I will not open the can of worms on flexibility poses! 
Talent will take them where they need to be and I doubt artistic directors  wade their way  through the news of how many recalls and offers any child has.
There lies a dangerous cocktail of mixed messages in all of this in the mental health of potentially young dancers. 

I agree with the above post. Subjecting, allowing and enabling moderate and safe use of social media is very different though than the media campaigns that a few parents persist on throughout audition processes for vocational schools. The irony of these type of posts is that when these high profile children take up their places some  vocational schools usually make it compulsory that their pupils accounts are set on private at the very least. 
I believe there is a difference between sharing the day to day moments of family life and the accounts ‘ run by mum’ as is often seen. 
These type of accounts serve no positive purpose to young dancers holistically. 
 

Such a shame for all pupils in this school, but most schools have bubbled their year groups to avoid this exact scenario happening, I wonder why this school chose to proceed differently?

Try not to see it as good or bad, more that the school was paying due diligence to your child and checking all aspects they needed to. 

4 minutes ago, Dd_dance said:

My dd has only just remembered, at the end of the ballet class, her group were all told not to get ready because the panel might want to recall one or 2 of them. After 5 minutes of waiting they were told the panel didn’t need to see any of them, so they were free to get their tracksuits on. I’m wondering if anyone’s DC were recalled and what this might actually mean? (I know I’m over analysing 😆)  

Hi , this happens every year and indeed causes anxiety and much second guessing among parents. 
The truth of the matter is it leaves neither students or parents with any more of a clue as to the forthcoming result. 
My own child did not have a recall but was a yes, many others in her year were in the recall and were a yes also. 
Thus ,there were students  with nos and yeses in both cohorts. It is only natural to spend this very challenging waiting week over analysing, after all that’s what we  parents do well! 

Hi, you are usually given a time frame to accept these offers. You can of course accept the offer and if another comes in that you feel unable to turn down you can withdraw. 
There is no deposit involved at Elmhurst and thus you can withdraw your decision. 
There is no obligation to take a place. Hope this helps. 

If it is helpful, you can drive to Sheen from WhiteLodge. (Use Sheen gate). 
In Sheen there is a large Waitrose  with a car park where you can access toilets also. 
It is likely the school will still allow parents to use specific toilets, they have done throughout drop offs in term time during the pandemic.  
 

Absolutely! I should add I have two children happy at vocational ballet training! 

 

I think that is why parents must choose their school based on what is correct for their child, not based on urban myths or sales pitches. 
The turnover of pupils at all vocational schools in this country is something that cannot and should not be ignored. 
Some schools have a very specific way of training others less so and as ballet is such a subjective, artistic sport  what is seen as trainable in one year can change dramatically over a period of a few years.

There is no transparent criteria for any of these schools!  
Vocational life for most parents is really only the beginning of a long long road. 

There is no rule of thumb or best fit for all children. 
Mental health is a whole other topic for young dancers at present wherever your child studies ballet. Good luck to all parents and children alike, each journey remains unique! 

Gosh there seems to be as many urban myths and misconceptions as ever about assessing out at RB. 

Pupils can  not continue their training even if they have the money as the body needs to suit their particular style of training and why would you leave your child in an establishment where the teachers felt their training was not working for them? 
Not all students who are told the Royal style of training no longer suits them go to YDA. They redirect their focus to a wide range of establishments. 
Other schools use the fact they don’t assess out as a selling angle, but from personal experience this brings disadvantages too. The lack of rigid  assessments and meeting these  means the  retaining of pupils who don’t meet the expected marks in assessments from term to term. As a result, there is a very wide spectrum of abilities over time which effects the overall standard. The approach is to have a nice dance environment and this serves its purpose too but can be frustrating for other pupils.  

On balance parents rarely turn down RB( though it has happened) but praise highly other schools who retain for 5 years. 
There are advantages and disadvantages to both, it is the British system of vocational training. 
 

7 hours ago, PurplePirouette said:

This is such useful information, thanks so much for sharing. Can I ask, do you know if this is the same for everyone on an MDS at Elmhurst, or does what’s included vary from person to person? 

I think there are many factors to weigh up 

regarding costs. Having had DC at both, MDS superficially seemed to cover more at Elmhurst, however you can apply for a music bursary to RB which can cover music lessons. 
Uniform and leotards are not covered, but there are other aspects to take into consideration. 
Healthcare is by far superior, class sizes overall are much smaller. It depends on how you view value for money. 
Regardless, we have found all ballet schools in general to be money pits!😂

I think the high level campaigns are required as the school is struggling to attract Upper school students especially.  
The turnover of students appears to be quite high also yet they peddle a happy holistic environment. IIt would be interesting to hear why this is exactly. They seem to be unable to retain many of their year 11 students for upper school even if they are offered a place. Interesting........

I would agree with the above statement. 
The intake to WhiteLodge sees children arrive with perhaps not necessarily more training  behind them but perhaps the correct training to give a ‘Royal’ starting point. Yes you must fit in with the ethos of the brand and have the correct physical attributes at the time of audition but to peddle other schools look for personality etc etc is absurd. They all do. There are many strong characters with big personalities in lower school. I believe the difference to be  a more finite specific way of training ballet which means RBS  in turn perhaps look at a candidate in the moment and make a subjective call if they believe they can train the body presented to them to date. 
There always seems to be urban myths around this process. 
The drive is  to produce a classical dancer, other vocational schools by their own admission look to facilitate other areas of the arts. Just my musings having walked the pathway........

Indeed, apologies if you feel we became rather derailed. I honestly believe( through no fault of our own) many parents head down this path lead by their child and the romance of it all when actually it is a brutal and challenging environment without enough support for students and their parents desparetly trying to do what is best for their child. 
I think the prestige of gaining the WL place and the chase for it makes it ultimately for purist ballet parents difficult to walk away from. As with all schools, ballet schools bring their own risks and shortcomings whether it is competitive assessing out or indeed the leave well enough alone,( even though some students are failing appraisals  ) approach and hope the students know when it is time to go. Both approaches it could be argued are flawed. 
ultimately we only ever react to our children’s happiness and ballet needs at any given time. Good luck for the future and buckle up for the rollercoaster ride! 

Completely agree, the child must fit the rigors of the school they best fit. Finishing training at any vocational school is an achievement for students and parents alike, gaining employment off the back of this proves challenging yet again. 
Having experience of both schools Elmhurst allow their students to stay even if some will never be employable in the industry, Royal do not. 
Thus, views differ greatly in this approach.

Parents must reconcile themselves with different approaches at different schools and new parents I believe should not be under any illusions of this.