Sunrise

5 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I see absolutely no point in re-rehearsing the previous discussion about La Bayadère, which was only closed down after all the arguments had been fully aired.  

I haven't rehashed any arguments. My point is just that attitudes have changed because of BLM and I thought that as result there may be more reluctance to stage Bayadere by some companies again, but I may well be wrong.

I was just thinking about Bayadere in fact - the last time I commented on its appropriateness, the thread was shut down. But I think that because of BLM, there has been a shift in attitude in some of the arts and raises again the issue of cultural appropriation. One outcome is that the use of white actors to voice minority ethnic roles is stopping. So I think it's worth revisiting and asking the difficult question about whether it can really be performed again in the UK in its current form. Especially as it's not just a statue or painting or book, but a living breathing piece of art. I guess for me, I would be happy to preserve the third act and some excerpts, but I wouldn't see it again as a whole.

Also, one point I didn't make last time was we don't know how dancers (from any company) might feel about dancing it, the sacred fire dance for instance. Do they have a choice to refuse to dance it? If they don't, how comfortable are we as an audience to pay for a ticket?

When I used to attend lots of RB and ENB classes, they were packed to the brim (many dancers dribbling in late), were a mix of principals (all the big guns of that time, Bussell, Cojocaru, Nunez, Rojo - I'm trying to remember if Guillem or Acosta ever came to one), soloists and corps, and quite often the same dancers attended, so I can only assume they were there because they wanted to be!

Occasionally the class was taught by a guest teacher and these were particularly well attended and principal heavy - I speculated that the organisers might have rigged this to ensure a treat for the audience 😉

Dismissing them as easily offended and overly PC I mean.

9 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I disagree, and I can understand why that sort of suggestion has been responded to  here with some  vigour; surely such responses are valid without being dismissed as unduly defensive or insulting.

I welcome spirited discussion! But I felt that some of the vigour was directed towards invalidating and dismissing some of my (and similar) posts. 

1 minute ago, alison said:

 

I'd considered it, but there are 25 pages at present, with I think 30 posts per page, and it's very complicated and time-consuming to do (which is why we appreciate it when people post in the right place in the first place  )

Is there any point to moving posts when the performances and most of the encore screenings are over anyway?

15 hours ago, loveclassics said:

I am not in favour of the way parts of our cultural history are now being re-interpreted in the light of modern thinking.

But isn't this inevitable?

And by uncomfortable/embarrassed, I mean it takes me out of the ballet, it doesn't contribute to the Oriental fantasy.

4 hours ago, Mary said:

think if I were staging LB next time I would change the presentation of the fakirs. Earlier in this thread they were referred to as 'savages' (!) and certainly noone I took to the ballet has understood they are meant to be Indian holy men. They have rasta wigs for one  thing and they do a sort of repeated grovelling movement - they have no dignity and seem to be like a representation of what used to be called 'an inferior race'- rather than the dignity of 'holy men'.

So yes I would like to change that.

I didn't know that the fakirs are meant to be holy men - it doesn't come across at all. They are probably the most obvious problem I have with Bayadere for the reasons you give and they don't even contribute to the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the audience who watches the fakirs dancing and grovelling and feel a bit uncomfortable/embarrassed. I'm curious what the dancers think of it. 

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

I really must disagree with this.  I explained in an earlier post what my definition of the PC Brigade was, and I know many people who use it in the same way.  Just to reiterate, my definition is that the PC Brigade refers to members of a small, vocal group who pop up from time to time "demanding" apologies and bans for something that might be offensive to someone else, when no objection has actually been made by anyone.

In my experience, PC Brigade, along with the "I was offended brigade" are used as shorthand to insult and ridicule opinions. You, along with many posters, express yourself very eloquently without needing such terms. Why throw them around so carelessly? I couldn't tell if they were directed at me. Their usage, along with suggestions to relax, and effectively be quiet or stay at home, is quite annoying and hurtful.

20 minutes ago, Fonty said:

It is perfectly ok for an individual to say that certain aspects of La Bayadere make for uncomfortable viewing for them personally.  It is quite another to say that they would like to see it banned, or drastically changed. 

But I don't think anyone was calling for Bayadere or any other ballets to be banned or anything that extreme. I feel like some of those defending Bayadere escalated to that on their own. I thought the discussion about the appropriateness of the Orientalism was quite interesting personally. I don't understand why that discussion can't be had without causing upset.

17 minutes ago, Ian Macmillan said:

Well, whether as a measure of critics' voices or something else, weekly views of recent Links posts are down by roughly 1000/week on the same time last year. 

I have to admit I'm one who doesn't go looking for critics reviews anymore. But if I had Twitter I could see the appeal in engaging with critics directly.

16 minutes ago, Sim said:

Gosh I hope not!!  Critics no longer have the influence or importance they once had.  

I agree, with forums and social media, I think critics, whilst respected for their experience, have become just one voice amongst many.

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

Must we let all our culture (and this particular ballet isn't even home grown) be picked to pieces and,  ultimately, removed from the repertoire because some take offense?

Aren't all ballets picked to pieces here?

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

Must we accept the view of the few who say they are offended, although I have yet to actually find out what it is that is offensive.

Of course not. But rereading the last couple pages of posts, the tone suggests that some of those who are "in favour" of Bayadere are more upset about this discussion than those who are "against".

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

I often wonder when faced with scenarios like this how those who really are the victims of racist abuse feel when they come across this sort of thing.

You could perhaps consider that some of us who have experienced racist abuse can also find frothy culturally insensitive ballets a bit uncomfortable as well as object to being referred to as the PC brigade. I appreciated toursenlair's post.

26 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

You now propose to censor even the language of dissent?

I think terms like PC brigade are generally used to belittle other people and opinions. I think the terms and conditions of this forum are generally to try to be nice to each other even while disagreeing.

I just have a feeling that minority views here are being ganged up on, especially when that view is "I don't like X". I get that this is a ballet fan site - obviously I love ballet too and I wasn't going to win any likes by going on a Bayadere thread and saying I don't like Bayadere. But it makes me sad that I can't express that opinion without being made fun of.

I'm finding some of the latest posts here remarkably intolerant and mean spirited.

Why can't a minority of posters voice their perfectly valid opinions about their discomfort about Bayadere (as I said before, this discussion can be made alongside a general appreciation for the dancers, choreography, Shades, etc.) without others throwing barely veiled insults and going off on a tangent about Fille, panto, Hamilton and making unfounded accusations of being part of the PC brigade and taking offence to everything. And especially since the origin of the discussion didn't start in a vacuum, it started with personal experience.

For the record I made the same criticism when the Bolshoi last brought Bayadere to London but I'm not intransigent and I've softened my view since then.

1 hour ago, chr said:

 

I get what you're saying, but the emphasis on 'different' cultures (which may be better described by 'otherness') sometimes tires me to death I must say. How many Austrians for example get asked about their homesickness at the performances of Mayerling? How many Danish get bothered at the performances of Hamlet? The list goes on and it shows clearly this works only one way.

 

I was also blown away by Nunez/Osipova/Muntagirov but at the same time, it's so a generic story  in a generic format only spiced up by 'Oriental' elements and of course, wonderful dance, that I find it difficult to follow all the discussions about character development, none of ballet characters usually makes sense to me! I can and do enjoy the rapport between dancers.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this post.

As a ballet fan who is also vaguely roundabout from wherever Bayadere is supposed to be set, I've always felt a bit uneasy about this one. I took my (reluctant) husband to see it a few years ago after telling him excitedly about the Shades, but at the performance I could feel his discomfort in the preceding scenes and he said later that he found some of it pretty offensive, and I haven't wanted to watch it since. This time at the cinema relay I actually found Bussell's reminder that it was a 20thC Russian choreographer's fantasy quite helpful in allowing me to enjoy the dancing.

8 hours ago, SylviaLiu said:

I don't think any of these ballet is meant to belittle any culture, perhaps quite the opposite, just because Petipa (and other choreographers) were so fascinated by the different cultures, that we get to see all of these character dances today. Of course, what they knew of that time was limited, and there are certain level of fantasy and imagination involved. But anyway, a ballet is a ballet, not a documentary or national archive, can't all of us just sit back and relax?

 

I think what some might see as celebrating a culture, others might see as fetishising. I love the dancing and dancers, I like the opulent costumes too, and I wouldn't want to lose Bayadere from the rep. But I think discussion of the problems with this ballet and the discomfort it generates should have a place here too.

1 minute ago, capybara said:

Was Alexandra Ansanelli another dancer who took a drop in rank to join the RB? Perhaps even Leanne Benjamin?

I think that's correct with Ansanelli. Sarah Lamb too? Also Cojocaru went from principal to go back in the corps! A drop in rank seems to be worth the risk!

19 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

But Hugh Jackman has had quite a career in stage musicals - he won a Tony for The Boy from Oz and was nominated for an Olivier for Oklahoma!.

I know, that's why I was so disappointed, I knew he was an amazing singer and performer! But I felt that in "Who am I" in what should have been one of the most powerful moments in the film, he seemed to "say" his lines rather than sing them, so it sounded more "realistic" but it really destroyed the song for me (I'm probably too attached to the way it "should" be sung). By contrast, Russell Crowe doesn't have a musical theatre voice at all and was never going to rival the professionals, but the way he sang "Stars" was straightforward and heartfelt and it worked for me.

In any case, I think that acting for a camera on a set requires very different skills to those needed on stage so it makes sense to me to fill the cast with as much acting talent as you can pack in! I mean Judy Dench, Ian McKellen, Idris Elba, etc etc!

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

I know someone who performed in the stage show.  There, the casting directors were looking for singers who could dance.  While it is a wonderful opportunity for those that have been cast, it seems odd to me that the film is casting dancers who are not exactly famous for their singing talents.  

 

I would have thought people who specialised in musical theatre would be more appropriate

50 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Well, as so many roles in famous filmed musicals were not sung by the actor or dancer at all,  but lip synced to the recorded score, I can't any reason why it may not be the same this time.

The Cats director, Tom Hooper, also directed the film of Les Miserables, and filled his cast with mostly actors who could sing rather than musical theatre stars, presumably to raise the profile of the film. I thought that it mostly worked fine and even though the singing wasn't as powerful as what you'd hear onstage (I was terribly disappointed by Hugh Jackman), it was still really interesting for me (some thought painful) to see actors like Russell Crowe sing, if not well, then still very emotionally. They can still put their own stamp on it.

The cast also made a huge thing of not lip syncing, but singing live onset to give a more authentic performance - I'll be curious to see if the same goes for Cats, especially given the amount of dancing involved!

I can't wait to see Idris Elba in this!

1 hour ago, alison said:

 

I hope this is an end to it: it's starting to get a bit silly now!

But it's an amazing opportunity for them! And it will be so exciting to see some of our favourite dancers in a different medium and on the big screen (cinema relays aside). They'll be immortalised in is sure to be a very popular (and hopefully great) film. The price is missing then for just a few months out of the season.

Looking forward to hearing him sing too 😁

It's not hard to see why they wouldn't go for it - it's a chance to be immortalised in a huge film and to be seen beyond a relatively niche audience. Very happy for them both.

McRae's playing Skimbleshanks! So exciting!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gramilano.com/2018/11/royal-ballet-principal-steven-mcrae-cast-in-cats-movie/amp/