DVDfan

For myself, from what I've read about ballet training and to some extent experienced elsewhere in the educational system, you are right to be worried by the feedback from the associate scheme, but not because your DD is lacking or at fault. It sounds to me like the kind of vague, largely meaningless criticism that is made to students by teachers who have decided they don't like them and need to justify themselves. Or even used to pick on the child, because there is no answer to it and nothing the student can do about it. As you say, "too young" or "feet not flexible enough" are examples of valid reasons why the auditionee was not thought suitable for the place. "Lacks character" - what does that even mean? If she showed character they could equally well reject her for that. "Too quiet" - that is just ridiculous as a reason for not taking a child into a dance class.

I wouldn't be inclined to bother with that associate scheme - though as I say, I don't speak from actual experience of the dance world but as an outsider looking in.

From some of the clips I've seen of Russian companies, some of them do (did?) have the bad habit of stopping frequently to milk applause out of character.

But, dancers need to breathe - it's not an option, the muscles require oxygen to release energy from glucose during activity and the body must rid itself of carbon dioxide produced during that activity. The only question in my mind is how they should take the pauses they need.

I think this may be difficult with some music and some classical choreography. What I mean is, in some the music allows for the corps or a soloist to do a variation to cover the principals' breathing time, in others it doesn't. Stopping for applause may be the only workable answer.

A dancer who is still trying to catch their breath, or whose muscles are still awash with lactic acid, isn't going to give the kind of stellar performance we expect, and maybe at increased risk of injury.

So glad to hear you are feeling better and stronger, Michelle.

You really shouldn't feel that you aren't entitled to treatment because  someone else is worse off. It just means you need less time in surgery and rehab than them. Which is good for you and for the NHS.

If it wouldn't be inappropriate, Sim, can I add this comment?

Over several years of reading this forum I have come to realise that people have different expectations of a ballet performance. For some, technical excellence is of paramount importance. For others, it is the emotional experience that matters. For many, it is the visual impact of a visual art that counts, but for a few, the music is paramount. Others want a good night out at the theatre, and so on, and so on.

Thus a performance that moves one audience member to tears by its dramatic impact may attract quite a bit of technical criticism from another. Yet another viewer may feel that the plot is peculiar or costumes distracting to the  point of failure etc, etc...

No one is wrong, they are just judging on different criteria.  

Two things:- Critical posts are an important way in which I learn about ballet from this site, and the only issue I have with them is that they are sometimes expressed with too much vigour and too little detail. So please, keep them coming, but just do the exam question thing and justify the comments!  

Posts that praise a performance in superlative tones are nice to hear, but without similar justification...well, that's all that they are.

The other thing is that the princesses in Swan Lake don't make much sense in a 19th century setting because what is really going on is actually a medieval Russian bride parade. The Tsars didn't make arranged marriages with the daughters of foreign royalty until the 18th century. Before that all the unmarried Russian ladies of suitable rank were called to the court and inspected by the prince, who then chose one. This resulted in a surprising number of happy marriages, rather more than the later political arranged unions.

Mental health issues, I'd say. In my experience, when people behave in an insane way, it's because they are. Let's hope he can receive treatment now.

Sounds as though the company coped brilliantly with a very fraught evening.

As to Siegfried and Odette being united in an afterlife, yes, the music does suggest that and I can see that if you do believe this is possible, then it is a satisfying ending.

My own feeling is that Odette has been robbed of her life by VR and that the correct ending to the tale is that it should be restored to her, possibly by Siegfried's sacrificing his own life: even then I feel VR has won, and that should not happen.

But we all see these things differently, and it's important that Art caters to us all. 

I do like the rest of this production, including most of act IV. It seems to me much tighter that in the first run.

What I feel about the last act of Swan Lake is that there is no ending that works with both the narrative as we have it and the music. 

I do a bit of creative writing and sometimes, you have the beginning and the middle of a story, but the ending just isn't right, and you can't get it right. When that happens, the problem lies not at the end but in the middle - it isn't set up correctly to flow towards an end. 

With SL, I feel that the problem is in Act 3, when Siegfried makes an honest mistake. As we all know, alas, in real life honest mistakes can lead to disaster and tragedy, but in a good verses evil narrative like SL that should not happen. Compare with Bayadere, where Solor knows he is betraying Nikiya - he deserves disaster, but Siegfried doesn't.

Although I know it is disliked and with the music as it is I can see why, the only satisfactory end to this narrative is for Siegfried and Odette to survive, having defeated VR through the force of love. Anything else is the triumph of evil, even if VR does get pecked to death by the corps de ballet.

I believe it is the case that, when Beryl Grey started dancing professionally during the war, 14 was a usual age to leave education and start work. I think she also said that she had been rather thrown on, and only in act 2 as that was what the company was performing at the time. Madam taught her the role in the afternoon and she performed it in the evening. 

It's clear if you also read the Doing Dance section of the forum that those dancers who do get a permanent contract with a classical company represent a very small and very fortunate sub-group of the population of highly talented, highly trained students out there. Not getting cast in named roles for a few years is nothing to complain about, not when you are building up your skills and stage craft, and especially not when there are so many who would give their eye teeth for the opportunity to be paid to dance at all.

Michelle and Fiz, so sorry to hear of the health issues that are affecting you right now.

Fiz, I know what it is to have a child with a serious health issue, my heart bleeds for you. We mothers always find the strength to get through it somehow, and truly, time is a great healer. Wishing you all the best.

Michelle, there are no unhealthy foods (unless you're thinking that the chicken had fowl pest or the wheat had rust (-: ), only unhealthy diets. I'd check that duck is OK as it is a very fatty meat compared to chicken or turkey. Otherwise it's all down to cooking, and understanding what you are trying to avoid. I think what they're telling you is that white bread is Ok, low fibre, while wholemeal and wheatmeal aren't as they are high fibre. Most of the things you list are regarded as bad in the ordinary way because they contain no fibre and a lot of energy. But just now, that's what you need. I'd select the items from the list that you like, so that you can continue to enjoy your food until the crisis is past.

Wishing you the best of luck for the next stage of your recovery.

Picking up on Geoff's comments about age etc, two things come to my mind.

One is that it isn't only the age of the child but also their lived experience that feeds into a decision to take them to see a particular work. You probably wouldn't want to take a child whose family had been affected by suicide to Wolf Works, for example, or from the sound of it, one who had been bullied to Different Drummer. 

The other is that it is most undesirable if anyone is actually traumatised by a theatre performance. This happened to me when I was about 10 in a cinema, when a scene of a hanging (which was actually faked within the drama as well as on the real set), which caused me to faint with shock. My parents hadn't been irresponsible, the film was billed as a swash-buckling adventure. This obviously did not lead me onto a love of cinema and if we are trying to build audiences for ballet we need to be a bit wary of putting children off. Best not risk it, in my opinion.

I have only seen the DVD, and even from that I could tell that the piece had fallen flat in 'The House'. However, I thought that there were some good sections and that Acosta showed some talent as a choreographer. The sections were in the wrong order - for example, the fortune teller should be the first scene, or nearly so and setting up the tragedy, not arriving half way through. And then all three leads were miscast, though I thought Bonelli made a good stab at arrogant masculinity, it didn't seem that he really has it in him. Well cast and with some editing and some improvements to the narrative, I think it could be a good piece.

Wrt booing at curtain calls, I was under the impression that it was traditional in this country to boo a good performance of Carabosse and Von Rothbart, and that visiting Russian companies had to be warned about this. The booing indicates just how effective the dancer has been in creating the villainous character.

Hopefully not to derail the thread, but does anyone know if the solo danced by Siegfried between acts 1 and 2 (between the palace and the lakeside) is choreographed  by Ashton or by Scarlett?

Ashton's Cinderella with Nunez and Muntagirov is available on the ROH stream now - I watched it last night and very joyful it was too.

For myself, I would happily go to my local theatre if they would start putting on proper plays again, but I would never go to a live ballet performance for fear of spoiling someone's enjoyment of the performance.

Well, is it not the case that dancers are at their best technically in their early twenties, but at that age, they lack experience and maturity of interpretation? As they progress in their careers they gain both, and so are at their best in their early thirties. But as they progress through that decade, the injuries build up, the body begins to rebel and the technique begins to falter.

Knowing when to stop, or to withdraw from some roles, must be difficult for a star whose name sells seats, often to a less than discerning audience. There's probably always a presenter who wants you in his show, and is prepared to pay handsomely. I imagine it's a lot easier for principals and others who are never stars in that sense, and who can probably rely on kindly (hopefully kindly!) ADs to tell them when to stop.

I'm not saying that Osipova has reached that stage, by the way, or ever will. I'm just commenting generally.

Hi, yes, that's the ladies' PDT costume in act one of Dowell's production of Swan Lake.

I agree that saying that you would have liked to see a particular dancer in a particular role is a legitimate comment, and so is criticising the casting decisions of an AD.

But I do think that to state or strongly imply that a particular dancer has left because of casting decisions is gossip, unless the dancer has confirmed that publicly.

Well, I find myself wondering who you would like not to have been cast so that Alex Campbell could be, or should there have been longer runs of fewer ballets so that everyone could be cast?

Personally, if Fate had decreed that I was a principal dancer, I should be dead from boredom in a few years. I mean - you spend weeks rehearsing and developing a performance, give it, heave a sigh of relief that you can move onto something new, and then back it comes - Nutcracker Prince every year, Romeo, Des Grieux and Albrecht every three years, Siegfried every two years. Now with some roles I suppose you're going to find more in them when you revisit them, but there has to be a limit to that. 

I suspect that Campbell gave such brilliant performances towards the end of his career because he had outside interests, and was not bored or exhausted, and had a richer life experience to bring to his interpretation.  

I agree with the poster above, let's not spoil a thread dedicated to appreciating a fine artist at the moment of his retirement from the stage, with angry criticism of the AD. 

With regard to the people waiting on the dock in New Orleans, in the early days of European colonisation, the arrival of a ship from home was rather like the arrival of a new crew on the space station. So besides people whose duties require them to  be there, like the goaler who needs to receive the new convicts, anyone who could would turn out to see what the ship had brought.

I've always read it that in the ballet the ladies and gentlemen basically lead the other women convicts away to be servants, or simply out of compassion so that they can recover their health.

In reality as someone mentioned above, women were in short supply and thus of great value. Men would turn up on the dock in the hope of finding a wife. This was beautifully portrayed as a comic interlude in a TV version of Manon I saw many years ago, which included a strong suggestion that the women could make their own choice. I don't know about the French colonies, but certainly in the penal days in Australia, any woman convict who married was normally released from custody at the same time.

I think the issue might be, what makes a principal dancer?

The first soloists mentioned, Hay, Hamilton, and Choe, are all very good at the things they are very good at. Hamilton, for example, is an excellent MacMillan dancer, but she seems to lack sufficient classical technique to excel in the tutu roles and I can't think of an Ashton role she's done well in. 

So, is it that to get that promotion a dancer needs to be exceptional in at least two styles of dancing, besides being good dramatically, and for the men, having good partnering skills?  are there other factors involved too?

1 hour ago, JNC said:

 

also interestingly I found I preferred some dancers as first soloists rather than principals as I saw them more but also found I preferred them in first soloists type roles, and the occasional principal role that felt it was suited/tailored to them. 
 

 

I've also noticed that some dancers look like principals whilst they are first soloists, and like first soloists when they are principals. I'd say Thiago Soares was one who for some reason seemed to 'go off the boil' and stay there. Another was Hirano, who seemed to pause in his artistic development but is now moving forwards and giving notable performances, I'm glad to say.

And dare I say that Campbell looked like a principal all the way through the RB ranks - but like the same principal, where others change with time.

58 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

To a certain extent, yes.  But to have principals who are very rarely cast in principal roles does deserve criticism.  Morera herself said she begged to be able to dance the role of Juliet just once....and never got the opportunity.  Not as if she wasn't capable of it, after all.  She was wonderful in all the other MacMillan roles she was cast in.

I did not mean to say that the AD never got it wrong, only that on this issue of new principals, he would be berated whatever his decision.

I'd also add that we do not know why Morera was not cast as Juliet, so that our criticism of that decision may not be justified. Or it might be more than deserved - we just don't know.

For what it's worth - I'm no expert, but three things occur to me.

Firstly, the reason that RB is so strong in depth is that the most talented youngsters join, confident that they will get opportunities for promotion and to  dance a variety of roles, when suited to them. Parachuting dancers in from outside to take the promotions demoralises the company.  I know one or two exceptional dancers have come in, but being exceptional it does no harm occasionally, and that it can occasionally make sense to recruit an older dancer to fill a gap - i.e. someone who will naturally be ready to retire around the time the up-and-coming members of the company are ready for promotion.

If KOH did recruit from outside I think it follows as night the day at there would be loads of moans on here that the incomer was taking an opportunity they wanted for their favourite First Soloist. There's enough resentment of guest artists, after all.

Secondly, since there are repeated complaints on this forum that so-and-so is underused, or only has two performances, this strongly suggests that there have been too  many principals - it follows  that there is no need to promote or parachute in now.  There are obviously some talented youngsters who will probably make principal, but it does them no good to promote too soon. 

Thirdly, whatever the AD does will be criticised.