Velvet

4 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

There are, without doubt, similarities in sport, though in my personal experience, I do believe the 2 sports that I am involved in are now taking Safeguarding and the welfare of young people far more seriously than in the past. And it is a difficult line to walk because any young athlete/musician/artist etc does have to be committed and work very hard and you can't get away from that. But i do believe there are ways to achieve that without inflicting  the type of damage we're talking about here. 

But I think there are 2 things that set dance apart that make it a particularly toxic environment, even more so than sport.

1) Regulation. Or rather lack of. Sports all have a national regulatory body with, in my experience at least, increasing openness and accountability. My son has been playing his sport at a fairly high level this year and the process for selection for the programme is on is dowloadable from the national body website, along with clear information about what will be expected of him, and us, and what we can expect from them. Plus links to their Safeguarding and complaints policies, instructions of what to do if you're worried or unhappy and so on. Now I haven't had to test what would happen if I did complain and I guess it's possibly all just for show, but I don't get that feeling, and at least their is a clearly defined process and someone overseeing standards etc. Of course there will still be bad people in any organisation and unsuitable coaches etc, but it feels very different to the dance world where there is basically no accountability, no effective means of independent review or whistleblowing and everything is shrouded in secrecy.

2) Boarding. Very little elite junior sports training happens in a residential setting, at least until post 16 or post 18, but it's the default setting in ballet. There is mountains of evidence of the potential harm that "normal" boarding schools can cause children, particularly at a young age. So here we have the double whammy of the downsides of boarding plus the downsides of elite training and I suspect the harm is even more than the sum of the parts. 

I read an interesting article some years ago - I can't remember where unfortunately- on the general topic of well being in teenagers. It basically said that the typical young person's life has 3 main "domains" - home, school and hobbies. The author believed that if relationships were good and the young person was happy in all 3 domains obviously that is best, but if one is difficult they can still thrive if there is support in the other 2 eg a child being bullied at school is less likely to be adversely affected in the long term if they have a happy home life and supportive friends and adults in say a sports team or youth club. But the poorer the quality of support in the other 2, the greater harm the toxic domain can do. That makes a certain amount of sense to me, and goes some way to explaining just why residential training can  be so damaging. For big chunks of the year all 3 domains are the same place and there is no escape. With the exception of music schools, which of course have also come in for criticism, I can't think of any circumstances in this country where this happens to this degree. 

I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest, but the older I get the more convinced I am that full time residential training from 11 is harmful to most children. 

You make really good points here which I agree with. My other experience than ballet is of hockey which my son has played at national level. Very tough again going up the ladder through the selection process and kids axed along the way in the selection process. But somehow it does feel different. You are either good enough and match the standard of the other kids or not. In ballet there is on top of that process the whole area of aesthetics which in turn bring into the equation subjectivity. It is a mine field from the get go. 
 

I have no argument with the various schools end goal of producing the best set of dancers they possibly can each year. Dancers who can go out and get jobs which is ultimately the aim. My gripe is how they go about achieving it. 
 

In hockey for my son to get faster, lower on the ball, stronger were all achievable targets. 
 

In ballet for a boy to be taller is impossible and a girl less than her natural body weight is unhealthy. They all work so hard physically and sweat buckets so burn off calories at a vast rate. The recommended calorie intake for a dancer is high. It’s heart breaking to know that students are starving themselves to attempt “pleasing their teachers”. 
 

There just has to be a better way of ballet schools producing first class dancers without leaving the carnage of vulnerably aged students sense of self in shreds! 
 

Here endeth todays sermon 😉
 

There is more on R4 if you can stomach it (link below). Some more ex students interviewed and some very insightful words from Luke Jennings and various medical/psychology people involved with students. 
 

From my perspective I recognise everything that has been said as absolutely the case! The JA years were fine but full time training at RBS for 8 years was excruciating. Not the “body shaming” issue for us but my dc was surrounded by that going on.  I have a list as long as my arm of phrases, comments slung at students to publicly shame them over their body shape and trust me they are eye wateringly cruel. But also over technique, facility, demeanour in class and on and on. The entire 8 years were spent mopping up fellow Mums traumas over the latest thing that was said or done to their child. Our particular type of difficulty was certain teachers hating my DC’s “wilful personality” with daily humiliation. Stopping class to publicly wipe the floor with them. For us the love of dancing won the day and we now enjoy watching our dc happily flourish in a Company. But I know we are in the minority and I completely understand why any other family would want to run as fast as they can in the opposite direction. The undercurrent is toxic and insidious and I don’t see how that can change in order to keep the standard they aim for. I doubt it’s any different in gymnastics, athletics, swimming etc. As we know they also have mental health issues and harsh training regimes coming out their ears. In some sports coaches use the word “beasting” to describe their rigorous training methods. That about sums it up for me! 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

❤️

After a notification to say there was a new message on this thread I was interested to see after watching Royal Swedish Ballet recently whilst on a work trip. But to my surprise the messages have been all about RBS students posted obviously by friends and family. Is there not an RBS thread somewhere else for promoting these students? It had been refreshing to celebrate other ballet going on in the world, particularly Friedemann who was astonishing! Sorry!! 

4 hours ago, AnneL said:

I am very envious! I would love to see Vogel live, having enjoyed his Onegin on video very much, and Keaveney I imagine would be great as Manon. I enjoyed her Cinderella last year. Sounds like a great partnership. 

Just about recovered from Mondays performance. It really is the most extraordinary ballet. It starts out being so light and frivolous but ends devastatingly. I feel almost traumatised! I didn’t think this production with Vogel and Keaveney could be any better, but I was wrong. The emotion and power of the story telling reached another level. They look divine together in my opinion. The experience and magnificent physique and lines of Vogel married with Keaveney’s delicate frame and fresh innocence was breath taking. This time the audience were out their seats before the curtain was even down. There were a lot of tissues about!! 

Christine, I’ll see you there 😉

5 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

Hello @Velvet and welcome out of the lurking shadows!

 

Thank you so much for your review.

Ha, I don’t mean to be lurking, I just don’t visit here very often but this topic caught my eye! 

13 hours ago, alison said:

There are numerous threads on the subject in Doing Dance, if you want to take a look.

 

In the meantime, if anyone has actually seen the production and would like to report back, that would be most welcome.

I watched last night. It was the most stunning production. The orchestra are superb. Staging, costumes, lighting great. But of course the most important bit, the dancing. I have never felt so drawn in and moved by ballet before. Friedemann Vogel and Sarah Erin Keaveney have tangible chemistry. Their acting ability is off the scale so they captivate you with their story telling. Friedemann at 42 is majestic and magnificent. Sarah at 22 is tiny with a light ethereal quality. I was riveted from start to finish and have never experienced a ballet fly by before like this. At the end the audience erupted out of their seats into standing ovation, many of us with tears streaming down our faces. If you want to experience beautiful dancing and story telling then I highly recommend this production. So much so I have booked to watch again on Monday.