Goldenlily17

11 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

The touring company of Ballet West was made up of the school's students.  You are correct it is in the public domain, but I would not under any circumstances use it as a good example.  Two of my students went through the school.

There were graduates and recent graduates of ENBS and other schools who went on the international tours, ie Swan Lake in Malaysia. At least three of them have told me they thought it was good experience, and freelance dancers told them the company provided useful summer short contracts.

28 minutes ago, Glissé said:

I think it really depends which schools the British dancers graduate from. For example, those who have trained at RBS and ENBS usually are successful in securing contracts whether or not those contracts are for companies in this country is debatable. There is no excuse for British companies not to be taking on these dancers having been trained to an extremely high standard. However RBS do not take on many British females in the first place and I think ENBS is similar. You’ll find a larger amount of British dancers at the other upper schools eg Elmhurst, Central, Tring. As for these upper schools it’s rare for English dancers to secure contracts in this country which is evident from looking at the graduation destinations on their websites. The top companies in this country are more likely to go to RBS to scout talent with more internationals than British students. It then makes sense for them to take on an international dancer. Maybe the problem lies in the intake to the top upper schools and the rest of the schools need to be supporting and training their dancers to a higher standard. 

I agree with this about the leading upper schools. There isn’t any excuse for RB and ENB not taking more of their own British graduates who have been so carefully selected over the years, especially now when British graduates and freelancers who trained at these schools don’t have the right to work for the wide range of European companies which have been on offer until now. However, I don’t see why it makes more sense for them to take a majority of international dancers when there are so few contracts and apprenticeships available and it is cheaper and more straightforward to employ their British talent. (This is aside from the fact that it would fulfil the lifelong ambitions of those dancers to move from their alma mater into the company). 
Regarding the other schools, lots of those dancers won’t be aspiring to work for ENB or Royal, but for dance theatre companies like Mathew Bourne, so the ambitions aren’t quite the same.

10 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

 

Could you please provide evidence?  Most of what you have alleged in this and in other threads has basically been hearsay and your opinion not backed up by facts.

 

 

Many years ago I went to a talk by ballet staff members of BRB.  They were saying that when they looked at students different companies had different needs - some were looking for dancers to fill the corps and others were looking for dancers THEY felt had the potential to reach the top.

 

We have been in a pandemic vortex since March 2020 - how are companies precariously balanced financially supposed to take on new dancers at the moment?  Even the Royal Ballet has had a voluntary redundancy scheme that has included dancers.

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 

If you are going to make allegations and insinuations please provide evidence and, in line with the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy, please do not hide behind a pseudonym.

There are a lot of points to address here, some have been answered elsewhere in the thread by other members (also with pseudonyms). However I will address them all in due course when I have time. Briefly, however, most companies have dancers with a range of heights. Some ask for a median of around 5’6” and I know of 3 in Europe and Russia which want very tall dancers over 5’8”, that is very useful for tall dancers, but of course now not possible for UK citizens. 
The point of highlighting Northern’s height limits was not to criticise the company for its choices, but to highlight how limited opportunities are within the UK. The same goes for the other companies listed.

You could argue that because we have been in a pandemic is was even more important that companies with full corps de ballet contracts available should have demonstrated their support for emerging British talent by employing a higher number of British graduates and freelancers. However they did not. It is easy to check these facts by looking at the destinations of graduates from the schools which have been published online and doing a few minutes research into dancers’ bios.

Regarding your point about “allegations”, I am not sure what you mean? All of the information about these companies is easily checked and if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring. 

15 hours ago, Pirouette said:

I'm not sure that this is true. The Shortage Occupation List does permit companies to offer a lower wage than the £25,600 minimum income requirement for a tier 2 visa (after all the years of training dancers have put in to get to this standard, this is not a good thing!) I believe most starting salaries for corps dancers in the major companies are lower than this. Inclusion on the shortage list lowers the minimum salary requirement to just £20,480.  

 

Most of the smaller companies pay wages lower than this, which leaves many dancers struggling to afford the cost of living without continued parental assistance.  Surely it is not ethical to leave UK dancers in a position where these are the only options open to them where they receive the same consideration that all other UK citizens can expect as standard? 

 

In many cases this would require additional finances or parental support - wages are low. Many dancers simply aren't that fortunate. 

 

Around ten for male dancers and ten for female dancers, depending on the year. Often there are fewer than that. There are more than enough British dancers to fill those vacancies, alongside others who may have the right to work in the UK through Irish or dual nationality, Settled Status or Indefinite Leave to Remain. 

 

In addition to graduate dancers there will be experienced dancers changing companies after long or short term contracts with major ballet companies in Europe or elsewhere - many of which are just as good as our major companies. 

 

As well as allowing companies to offer a reduced wage, inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List also absolves employers of the requirement to advertise the position to the resident labour market for 28 days. Several of the major companies don't advertise for full contract positions, either for entry level corps positions or the higher ranks.  The Paris Opera Ballet is often accused of being a 'closed shop' - but to their credit - at least they hold an advertised audition every year. Don't British dancers also deserve to see positions advertised so they can have a fair shot at them at least? 

Absolutely right

16 hours ago, Peony said:

Corps dancers at the Arts council funded companies (BRB, RB, Northern, Rambert, Scottish Ballet) will be on a high enough salary that they can come in to the country regardless and not all of the smaller companies are listed as sponsors for the shortage occupation scheme. How many dancers come into the country on this scheme? How many UK citizens graduate at an appropriate standard (which I think ultimately is where the debate will lie!), how many of those prefer to stay in the country even if dancing with a minor company? How many vacancies are there each year?

What do you consider to be a minor company? Scottish Ballet hasn’t hired anyone for 2 years, Northern only wants short females, Ballet Theatre UK only has 16 odd dancers and hasn’t hired for 2 years, Ballet Cymru appears to have only 4 resident company members now, Vienna Festival Ballet has gone bust, Ballet West International touring company closed engulfed by scandal, Balletboyz isn’t an option if you are female, and Ballet Black isn’t an option if you are white. 

So where are all these jobs which need to

be filled? The number of vacancies is tiny. Perhaps 10 for women and 10 for men including apprenticeships per annum.

I don’t know a single British Royal Ballet or English National Ballet graduate who hasn’t hoped to get a contract at either Royal, ENB or Birmingham, and who would have been pleased to be offered a contract with Scottish or Northern. In the absence of those job offers most have auditioned throughout Europe and those European contracts in national and regional companies have been their salvation.

3 hours ago, Peony said:

An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

Dancers don’t have a strong union. This is one of the problems and a point that has been made earlier in this thread. We have the evidence that graduates are emerging into the workplace every year who could fill the small number of vacancies. 

5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

But are the dancers trained to the standard that the Artistic Directors of this country are looking for?

Of course they are! The Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School are internationally renowned (as are some of the others which have a slightly different emphasis). They exist to train dancers for positions in leading companies, and dancers from across the world choose to train at them. Entry is highly competitive! Dancers who graduate from either of the above schools are at the standard required to enter the corps de ballet of the parent company and leading companies throughout the world. 

I don’t understand your scepticism? Where do you get this idea from that the dancers trained in these schools aren’t well enough trained?

4 hours ago, Pirouette said:

The protections I am referring to are the right for UK nationals (and others who already possess the right to work in the UK) to be prioritised for job vacancies and to see those vacancies publicly advertised for 28 days in two places suitable for the job and industry in question.  Workers in all occupations benefit from this as standard, not just those considered professions in the narrower sense of the word. Employers can only hire an applicant on a Tier 2 visa once they can prove that these requirements have been met, thus the onus of proof falls firmly upon the employer. 

 

The data you ask for is not in the public domain, and may not even exist for those companies who do not advertise auditions. In the latter case, any data provided is unlikely to reflect the true picture, as, of course, fewer dancers will apply for vacancies if they don't know they exist in the first place! This puts dancers in an impossible position -  a catch 22. They are at a disadvantage when being considered, and at a disadvantage when proving that they are at a disadvantage when being considered. As I said above, in other UK occupations meeting the Tier 2 visa requirements is the default requirement and the burden of proving that lies with the employer, not the pool of candidates. 

Quite right

On 06/08/2021 at 20:44, Jan McNulty said:

 

On a performance week I would say so - class, rehearsal, performance or class and 2 performances on matinee days.  On a rehearsal week I don't know for sure.  But I suspect if a dancer took an employer to court I suspect they may find themselves a job free zone.

This is precisely why we have to take dancers of the Shortage Occupation List. As long as we continue to maintain a low barrier to entry which permits the importation of entry level dancers into the UK, dancers will continue to be regarded as  commodities. The more they are seen as commodities the less they are valued and they become more easily exploited. We do not have a shortage of dancers in the UK. We do not have a shortfall in the numbers needed to fill the extremely limited number of vacancies. If we did have a shortage, the dancers we train would be more valuable, and thus have more leverage.

4 hours ago, Pirouette said:

You can join as a student or as a graduate member for two years, after which I believe you move automatically into full membership (please correct me if I'm wrong, this may have changed). This used to be from an accredited school (which covered most of the main ones) but the joining criteria look more generous now.  You can read them here: 

 

https://www.equity.org.uk/about/how-to-join/

 

All the major UK ballet companies, New Adventures, West End, the major Opera companies, and most other large productions tend to use Equity contracts. This is not the case in the smaller companies though - I think Ballet Cymru may be a notable positive exception here. There are other companies that historically paid a wage which didn't add up the national minimum wage when divided by the number of hours worked, let alone the Equity minimum wage! Unsure whether this is still the case. 

 

Broadway workers ran a successful campaign earlier this year to make it compulsory to include pay details for job adverts in certain major publications. If only this could happen for dancers too! Often dancers travel miles to attend auditions that they would never have bothered with had they been aware of the pay. It would certainly expose the truth of the situation and then something might be done about it.  

 

I still think that the current biggest problem lies with the second company/apprentice situation though. This is a relatively new phenomenon... Which brings me back to the original point - we need to write to MPs for fair access to jobs so that it doesn't proliferate further. 

Pay in ballet is terrible. Freelance short contracts will pay the Equity minimum, and right now some jobs paying as little as £350 per week.  Those lucky enough to get full contracts can expect around £20,000 at entry. So if you work this out as an hourly sum including performances, you might be doing a 13 hour day. That means corps de ballet dancers earn less that the people who clean the theatres in which they perform. Pretty shocking when you consider that they are the people audiences pay to see, and, more shocking when you look at company accounts and see the six figures sums being earned by artistic directors.
Not wishing to go too off topic, all of this proves just how vulnerable dancers are, how limited employment opportunities are, and how important it is for dancers’ voices to be heard by their MPs on a range of topics.

I agree. It is important that Equity has more members who are ballet and contemporary dancers. However, dancers really meed their own union.

This issue is not going to go

away. Just because this latest announcement may not have much substance doesn’t change the need for performers to keep pushing for their futures.

1 hour ago, Pirouette said:

This is great, and covers many of the key points.

 

For those dancers personally affected by this (or whose children, friends or students have been affected), it would be good to include personal stories as well. MPs receive a lot of correspondence, and I've heard that the pieces which have the biggest impact are those that set the problem in a personal context. It is worth remembering too, that all correspondence with your MP is confidential. 

 

Both approaches are helpful and needed - if we can show *both* personal stories of those affected, *and* a high volume of concern from the wider public through use of this template, we are more likely to succeed. 

Bravo on all accounts.  MPs want to know how policy has affected you or your children and friends. Your letter will be confidential.

1 hour ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Write to your MP - it doesn't matter which party they are from. Inspite of the posturing before elections and for the media, most of the real work in Parliament is done by cross party committes and the Chair may well be from an opposition party, not necessarily from the majority party which forms the Government. 

Absolutely

2 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Which departments should people be writing to as well as their MPs?  If your MP is not in the majority party they may not have much sway.

 

Is Equity also in discussion.  Surely dancers have the right to join that union which could provide something of a voice for them.

The group of MPs who attended the debate on the petition for visa waivers for musicians on 29th June were both Labour and Conservative. They came to the discussion with Caroline Dineage, the Minister for Culture, and Lord Frost to discuss the needs of their constituents. They did so with passion. My MP is doing the same for me on behalf of dancers which is why dancers’ needs are being discussed. So please write to your MP and explain how crucial it is for dancers’ as well as musicians’ needs to be considered.

Dancers can join Equity of course, but the union does not seem to be very focused or especially well informed about issues affecting dancers. It is primarily an actors’ union, with sub-set groups included, like dancers, acrobats and circus performers - as they put it. They have negotiated a dance passport which they are pleased with, but this only gives help to dancers already based and working in a given EU country through the local performing arts unions, it isn’t a passport to work.

Please don’t use Equity’s template, write a personal letter. Many MPs don’t respond to round-robins and petition requests.

44 minutes ago, Pirouette said:

It was great this morning to wake up to the news that the government has agreed visa free touring for UK artists in 19 EU countries! 

 

The countries with agreements in place are Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden.  

 

The government is now in negotiations with the remaining 8 EU countries, with the aim of reaching a similar agreement there. 

 

Whilst not perfect, this is a huge step forward and just goes to show what lobbying can achieve. The success is largely thanks to tireless campaigning from the Musicians Union on behalf of their members, and household names in the music industry stepping in and lending their voices to help those who are less well known. 

 

The question now is who will speak up for the interests of our dancers? Whilst this news will come as a welcome relief to companies, individual British dancers desperately need reciprocity to be reinstated with Europe for contracts too.

 

If some big names in the dance world could find the courage and compassion to speak up for our ballet dancers, this would go a long way. 

Well said. Dancers need visa waivers to work in Europe just as much as musicians do, but unlike musicians they have no figurehead or dedicated dance union to fight for them. It is vital now that dance parents who care about their exceptional children’s future prospects, and dancers themselves, write to their MPs. The Department of Culture, Music and Sport is currently in discussion with the Home Office about this very issue. I received this news from my own MP yesterday.
 

To date the departments have not heard from dancers. This is the time to make the case for visa waivers for up to 1 year to permit dancers to take up contracts in the above countries. There are so many companies in these countries which have hitherto provided first jobs for British graduates and also short and annual contracts for freelance dancers. Please write to your MPs.

On 30/07/2021 at 17:26, danceparent said:

As a very strong anti Brexiteer married to the son of an immigrant family this is most certainly not my standpoint! However, for ballet dancers EU jobs for EU citizens was undeniably a reality in the 2020-2021 audition season - either stated directly in job adverts or communicated in other ways - as someone has referenced either in this thread or the Radio 4 discussion one,  interest shown but made clear no help can be given with visa applications or being directly asked for passport status in email communication with companies/directors before material would be viewed. My DC experienced all of this first hand. 
Maybe this will be a short lived situation, something that will be ironed out in negotiations at some point in the foreseeable future, but in a time limited career it has rung the death knell for many young (predominantly female) careers before they even had chance to prove themselves. 

Precisely. This is why is really is important to write to Equity with an account of personal experiences and to your MPs. They can’t know what is happening if they aren’t told. It is also important for dancers to back the Incorporated Society of Musicians’ initiatives. The musicians’ unions are powerful, and the interests of opera singers in particular are aligned with ballet dancers. We cannot just wring our hands. We need to fight for the reinstatement of some kind of level playing field. If international dancers can continue to gain visas to work in the UK because the UK government is favourable to global talent and prepared to offer loopholes, British dancers must regain some level of opportunity in a larger overseas market.

On 30/07/2021 at 11:41, Kate_N said:

Be careful what you wish for. The "British jobs for British people" idea is what fuelled the success of the Leave the EU campaign. 

I certainly didn’t wish or vote for this. I was passionate for us to Remain because I could see how loss of freedom of movement would impact on dancers even before 2016. I’d like to see a world with open borders for cultural workers (including the USA) but given that we now have a Britain in which workers are supposed to be benefiting from ‘British jobs for British people’ it seems that dancers are excluded from that, and won’t benefit from protections. They only have the right to work in the UK whilst there are many exemptions  which permit international dancers to work here. We are in a lose, lose situation., and I think we have to fight for the reinstatement of some kind of level playing field.

Yes that is true. Nobody on an M-1 visa has the right work, unless you have dual nationality.

4 minutes ago, fromthebalcony said:

You are right. Many of the smaller companies do not pay their 2nd company dancers. As I stated, most LARGER companies (which are usually AGMA companies) that have a second company pay a salary. "In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance."

None of this helps UK dancers as to get into a US 2nd company as an international a dancer will need an M1 visa. This isn’t difficult. The problem is that M1 visa holders are not allowed to work in the US at all so they are already disadvantaged in relation to their American peers in the 2nd company. All they can hope for is a per diem of around $400 per month (though I am told that strictly speaking that isn’t legal). Often they are expected to do all of the company outreach, also unpaid, so that is a six day week. Slave labour really.

On 11/07/2021 at 15:02, fromthebalcony said:

Many varying opinions here. In the US, it is true that parents can pay large sums of money for training and that dancers in serious training give up many normal teen activities, which is probably the case for anyone pursuing an activity at an elite level. As far as “pay to play,” this does not happen in AGMA companies. Most larger companies have either a second company, apprentices, or both. They receive a salary, although in larger cities it is not always a livable wage. It varies with each company. It is also true that many companies do not have full year salaries. Dancers find other work and/or collect unemployment. However, dancers in large AGMA companies make a fairly good living especially as they go up the ranks. In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance. As far as sponsors and promotions, I don’t believe that sponsors necessarily guarantee promotion. I know of dancers who are sponsored and they have remained in lower ranks for years. And to touch on parents donating money, yes, this does happen, unfortunately. Finally, it was mentioned about dancers who are able to pay for private coaching. This is disconcerting ... one, because the company should be providing the coaching necessary for roles, and two, it gives an unfair advantage to those who are able to pay for the exorbitant coaching fees charged in large cities.  

Not all US companies pay 2nd company dancers. Of those that do some only pay a per diem, around $400 per month. That doesn’t cover the rent.

There is an element of pay to play in British ballet, certainly. For example, the enormous hourly sums coaches (former dancers) demand which lure parents into thinking that their DD or DS may have a certain advantage over others who can’t afford those coaches. 
 

With regard to pay for performances, the Equity minimum is not enough to cover rent and living costs, so it is advantageous if dancers have a base in London or whichever major city the company is based in.  Taking into account the long daily hours from class to the end of perhaps a second daily performance, on an hourly basis corps dancers are paid less than the people who clean the theatre. It is pretty difficult to swallow when you consider how highly skilled those dancers are and that they are the  people the audience pays to see. Ballet is probably the lowest paid highly-skilled profession in the world unless you are an artistic director in which case you can command a six figure salary. The pay differential between those at the top and those at the bottom proves that the money could be found to pay dancers a decent living wage. I don’t think Equity is at all focused on pay for ballet dancers, whether under company contract or freelance. News bulletins reveal that its attention is almost entirely consumed by diversity issues. 
Private income makes a big difference to whether this kind of life is sustainable. Freelancers can’t possibly afford the shoes, classes etc which are needed to support their careers. 

The problem is circular and two issues can’t be separated.  People need to work abroad because government policy favours the recruitment of overseas dancers which reduces opportunity at home.  If there was more protection for UK dancers - in fact only the protections which the majority of UK workers now enjoy and indeed most workers across the globe - the need for visa waivers to work in the EU would be less acute.
Attitudes need to change. It is ridiculous that the government is so fixed on the idea that there is insufficient talent in the UK to fill this fictitious ‘shortfall’. Everybody knows that jobs in all branches of the arts are oversubscribed. The dancers we already have in the UK, including settled EU citizens with the right to work here, could fill the small number of corps vacancies several times over. Just look at how ENB is deluged by freelance applicants for Christmas shows and the Albert Hall productions. Competition for these places from people with the right to work in the UK has never been fiercer. Importing soloists and principal dancers is quite a different matter. The entire argument surrounding recruitment and immigration in the arts must be re-thought.

Answer to Peony’s question. It is worse for dancers because of the very limited number of opportunities in dance in the UK, especially in ballet. Opera singers and musicians who are starting out have the country house operas and festivals which don’t exist in ballet. It is easier for them to form chamber groups as they don’t need the space and bespoke flooring needed by dancers. Furthermore most of the choruses and orchestral players in these opera productions are British graduates from the UK’s leading music schools.
And yet, in ballet, the corps are overwhelmingly staffed by imported dancers, and so are contemporary dance companies. We are producing British dancers every year from our own leading internationally-renowned dance schools, most of whom have had to find jobs in European companies because they can’t get into British companies as a result of this obsession with the notion that there isn’t enough talent in the UK. Now they have lost that right to work and we have British dancers returning from cancelled contracts in the EU adding to their ranks. 
Frankly, it is insulting to the highly talented dancers who we do have, who worked for so many years for these corps jobs, and who have proved themselves by working in large company productions (for free) during their graduate years to have their talents ignored. So really the important thing is to lobby the DCMS through your MPs, tell them what is happening, ask them to support the removal of dancers from the Shortage Occupation List and write to Equity. The government is incredibly poorly informed about the reality of life and prospects for workers in this sector, and I know that their views have been formed by reports which were written pre-Brexit and pre-pandemic.

Dancers who aren’t fortunate enough to have dual citizenship are being refused contracts in ballet companies in the EU. I know of several examples. They have been offered contracts and then been told a short while later that visas can’t be obtained for them. This will have a devastating impact on their career prospects.
The EU market is critical, given the limited number of opportunities in the UK. So, even though this site is not supposed to be political, any UK citizen in this position who wants their DS or DD to have the possibility of a ballet career needs to get active and write to their MP, Equity and preferably the DCMS and to support the movement for visa waivers for cultural workers which is being led by the Incorporated Society of Musicians. If anyone want to contact me privately please do.

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