Janeparent

46 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

It does all depend on the Degree that the student with only 2 A levels is applying for. 
My daughter, and others in her year group, were very successful with University offers after A levels. 
It’s hard work to manage 2 A Levels, a Trinity Diploma and full time vocational ballet training. I can’t really see how you could do 3 😅 Something would have to give. 

I agree that more than all that would be extremely difficult. My personal opinion is that it would be better to take the Trinity Diploma out of the equation, and instead offer three A’ levels alongside the full time ballet training.

33 minutes ago, WhatsThePointe said:

At Elmhurst you can only choose from Art, Geography, Eng Lit or Maths.

I don’t think it’s a free choice from those either, unless things have changed: my understanding was that it used to be either English and art or maths and biology (which seems to have been changed now to geography). 

8 hours ago, Swanwings said:

Hello @ThatDancingGirl, I cant comment on what the courses are like as my dd is still yr 11, but I do know that Elmhurst and Tring both offer Alevel options if thats any help. 

 

Elmhurst only offer two A’ levels (from a very limited choice of subjects) which, as has been pointed out, isn’t usually enough for university entry. The only place which offers three, with a good range of subject options, is Tring. 

11 minutes ago, Dancing unicorn said:

Well she must have mellowed then, we have nothing but praise for KS. She put our dd back together again after being at one of the schools mentioned on Monday 🥹

I’m very glad she has mellowed. 

26 minutes ago, Dancing unicorn said:

I would second KS in Warrington! If we had our time again that’s definitely what we would have done 🥹

See my post above! Clearly different experiences of KS! 

48 minutes ago, along for the ride mum said:

And let’s not forget that it isn’t only the artistic staff who need to be implementing policies and regulating their own professional behaviour. The pastoral/ boarding staff must also be held to account. No amount of talking about your stringent safeguarding policies actually means they are being effectively implemented!! 
 

in the interest of balance and fairness, in our experience there were some excellent academic staff who cared deeply and went above and beyond.  Sadly, that went only so far towards mitigating the serious failings elsewhere the damage was too deep and too wide 

I totally agree with both of these points. Our daughter received far better pastoral care from some lovely academic staff than from the “pastoral staff”. 

11 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

More from us…(Elmhurst first hand experience) 

- preferential treatment/casting towards students with sponsors

- Casting on the basis of costume size 

- inappropriate behaviour from invited choreographers (sexual language, homophobic comments, remarks about weight - taking students out of the piece if they dared to complain)

- Being told by the AD that a hearing loss ‘isn’t a problem till it’s a problem.’

- teachers being told about said hearing loss and how they can help (please look at them when speaking, try not to give too many corrections to them individually whilst piano is playing etc) and blatantly ignoring it - then screaming at them for ‘not listening’

- houseparents handing out excessive punishments and making judgements about the students’ moral characters 

- an AD who had no idea of a students strengths and weaknesses despite leading their appraisals for 8 years 

I do have to say though that for us the health and well being care we received both following an eating disorder and a subsequent significant injury was exceptional. 
I am incredibly sad that this huge cloud is hanging over the whole of the artistic team when there are some amazing, nurturing, compassionate and dedicated dance teachers there too - the one who was always on the end of the phone; the one who cried genuine tears over the injury; the one who first referred to them as women and not girls thus validating the bodies that in the previous year they had learned to be ashamed of; the one who spent time after class helping work on corrections; the ones who never ever said an unkind word. Meanwhile, those accused have moved on to teach elsewhere and are not even in the spotlight that they created. 

- 

 

Not all of them have moved on. The problem is that however good the official policies are, however well-intentioned the principal is (and she is, at Elmhurst, in my opinion, based on our experience), if the day to day ballet teaching is not monitored or corrected then the actual implementation of any policies is left completely to chance, dependent on the whims of individual teachers.

2 hours ago, littledancer99 said:

Anyone in the northwest. Kate Simmons in Warrington Cheshire offer high level ballet. Cechetti. An ex pupil is now at rb. 

Just to give a possible warning: I know nothing of the current school, but my personal memory of being taught by this school’s principal, 40 years ago, is not a positive one. Perhaps she has mellowed over the years…

Mods: please remove if this breaks the rules.

1 hour ago, Beezie said:

There is 1) general enrollment and 2) the decisions of parents on this forum.  I agree that general enrollment in these schools won’t be affected.  There will always be a family willing to fill the slot based on the school’s prestige.  

But to point #2….  There are parents of younger children reading this, now, and questioning their own decision-making as parents.  Hearing parents say time-and-again that they would decide differently if they knew?  That’s powerful.  It might change a single girl or boy’s experience.

 

And if these schools do start to see professional dancers ‘make it’ outside their system, they will eventually take notice.  And other parents should take notice too.

For any parents of younger children making this decision, our personal (recent) experience was this: our daughter started at Elmhurst in year 7, was desperately unhappy and left halfway through year 8. While the academic staff were kind, her ballet teacher was not: in that short space of time she lost all of her belief in her ability and all of her joy in dance. She was broken and now recoils at the very mention of ballet. Having spent her younger childhood loving ballet and being devoted to it, and showing a large amount of talent and potential, she will now never dance again. The pastoral care she received at the school was laughable: we moved house so that she could be a day student, but the “pastoral” staff are in reality simply the boarding staff, who consider day students to be an inconvenience. She was lonely and neglected. We had many meetings with senior management, at which assurances were made, but nothing substantially changed. I wish with all my heart that we had never sent her there.

26 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

It’s not about being elite at all, when I mentioned ‘shining’. Perhaps it’s the wrong term to use when what I probably meant was ‘thriving’. A child doesn’t have to be top of everything to thrive somewhere. They can be distinctly average to outside observers but be completely happy and settled in themselves. This can absolutely happen in both comprehensive and grammar schools. Would this be acceptable in top vocational schools or would the child be thrown out? Of course the responsibility ultimately lies with the parents. If a child is unhappy or if they feel like something is off, they always have the option to take them out of that situation. This is what at least a couple of the parents in that documentary did. 

Even if the parents decide to remove their child from a school (which we did from Elmhurst) the damage that has already been done can be huge and long-lasting or permanent.

1 hour ago, Thelittleswans said:

Thank you for your input. Determining whether my child will find happiness in any of the mentioned schools is quite challenging and beyond my control. Even the audition process won't give us a true sense of what daily life at these schools will be like. While intuition might provide a preliminary impression, I personally don't put too much stock in first impressions, as I've been proven wrong in the past.

Like many parents, if I had the means to provide my child with the same level of training at home (3 hours per day, 5 days a week, plus 2-3 hours on Saturdays, totaling 18-20 hours per week), I would. I'm well aware that there are exceptional private teachers in the UK. However, this isn't currently an option for us. My daughter has expressed her desire to attend a vocational school, and I fully support her. I'm simply researching these schools to make an informed decision about their pros and cons when offers are on the table.
 

I think my main concern is the training itself. Are these schools absolutely amazing at teaching ballet? Is the training superb? Because that’s what I expect. However I am interested to find out what other people have noticed.

Our experience/impression was that the training at Elmhurst was very far from superb: our child did not make progress in line with their potential before joining the school. Our impression was that the students who made the most progress were those who (against the rules) also had private training outside of the school. I think this is not limited to Elmhurst though and happens at all the vocational schools, as far as I am aware.

3 minutes ago, AllAboutTheJourney said:

I’m think the reference to ‘minimising stress’ was in relation to the management of the y6 audition year, in terms of how many schools to apply for and which ones. It is potentially a long, stressful, busy and very expensive year once you factor in the various rounds of auditions for several different schools. 
 

It is very hard to reply about the various schools without giving personal experiences (which can vary drastically) or anecdotal accounts (quite rightly not allowed). I think to be honest you will likely get a feel for each school during the audition process which will make it clear which ones suit your DC and also you as a family.

This latter point is true to an extent, although the schools can give a misleading impression at open days and during the audition process: we chose Elmhurst precisely because it seemed the most kind and caring, but unfortunately the good intentions of both the principal and the artistic director, which I think are genuine, did not carry over into the running of the dance department, in our experience.

2 hours ago, MissEmily said:

@Thelittleswans Someone would have to have left Elmhurst in order for there to be any spaces for Year 10 so for me, that risk is too great at such a critical stage of education and the number of Year 9 students not getting into Year 10 at WL would be enough to put me off going there in the first place. It is interesting to see more and more very talented dancers turning down their places at WL either to go to Elmhurst/ Tring or to stay at home. That said, there is no doubt that the performance opportunities are superior at WL. Tring ballet students do get to do ENB’s Nutcracker if they’re the right height. Elmhurst only does in-house performances at Christmas and in the Summer, and it’s a real shame there aren’t any professional performance opportunities for them. Only two or three of the tiniest Year 7s get to do BRB’s Nutcracker. The training and nurturing ethos at Elmhurst are excellent, as is communication with parents. They are truly invested in the students they have chosen. 

I realise that each child’s experience will be different, and equally valid, but just to share my own child’s experience of Elmhurst and give a different perspective, we did not find the training, the nurturing ethos or the communication with parents to be excellent at all - this applied particularly to the dance department; the academic staff were, in our experience, generally kinder and better at keeping parents informed about our child’s progress. Our child did well academically but was otherwise very unhappy and left during Year 8. They were selected with a few others from Year 7 to appear in BRB’s Cinderella, but I agree that generally the professional performance opportunities (for lower school students) are very limited.

1 hour ago, expatballetmom said:

Thank you so much! I hadn't heard of this school before and will look them up. May I ask were you able to sample or get a feel for the online instruction before you comitted to it?

We didn’t ask for that but they are very accommodating so it would definitely be worth asking. They have only been going for a couple of years but are expanding rapidly (and have won some awards). When we were looking it was the closest we could find online to a “real” school and so far we haven’t been disappointed.

2 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

My child attends Minerva’s Virtual Academy fully online school (although they have optional in-person school trips a couple of times a term). It is a combination of live online lessons and directed self-study (linked to the live lessons). The live lessons are all recorded so that those students who have training during the day in, for example, sports (but could be dance) can catch up later. The teaching seems excellent and the environment friendly - my child is very happy. 

Just to add, MVA is run like an online version of a regular school - so they have small class sizes, a head teacher and head of year, whole year and year group assemblies, optional social rooms, clubs (art etc.), a personal “mentor”, regular reports. We have been very impressed so far (child started last September). 

19 hours ago, expatballetmom said:

I am curious if anyone has experience with switching to an online school environment for vocational ballet students Year 9 and above. It's something we've considered due to the flexibility it would afford for my DD to attend summer intensives and other training opportunities abroad. What are some of the leading online UK schools? Thank you in advance. 

My child attends Minerva’s Virtual Academy fully online school (although they have optional in-person school trips a couple of times a term). It is a combination of live online lessons and directed self-study (linked to the live lessons). The live lessons are all recorded so that those students who have training during the day in, for example, sports (but could be dance) can catch up later. The teaching seems excellent and the environment friendly - my child is very happy. 

51 minutes ago, Jewel said:

I don't really think it is fair to compare a vocational ballet school with an academic (often academically selective) fee paying school.  

 

We did find at a different school that mixed ability classes of larger than 20 did not work very well for maths and science but it was fine when the class was split into two and set by ability.  

It would have been much better if this was done at Elmhurst. 30 children in a hugely mixed ability class is never going to be ideal for any subject, but the teachers did their best. 

24 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

We’ve found the academics to be of a good standard, with some exceptional teaching. A class of up to 30 didn’t bother us, as that’s what we’d had in primary and it’s what we would have had at the local comp. 

I think that’s the point though - our experience was that it was equivalent to a good comprehensive, with all mixed ability classes (pre-GCSE at least) and large classes, rather than being comparable to an academic fee-paying school. For those not eligible for MDS funding the comparison is more relevant.

31 minutes ago, Jane156 said:

Thanks for replying. I thought WL split them into 2 classes so 15 in a class whereas taught in 1 class at Elmhurst. 

I think you are correct on this point. I don’t have first-hand knowledge of WL, but my DC was at Elmhurst and although the academic teaching was mostly very good, 30 students in their year group for academics was definitely not ideal. (They were, as you say, split for ballet, though not for other dance styles, but not for academics.) There was some disruptive behaviour, which took us by surprise. Dance-wise, we did not feel that the communication was good enough at all. This was during the height of Covid, but we didn’t get offered any conversation with our child’s ballet teacher during year 7 at all - whereas the academic department at least offered telephone conversations with all the academic teachers towards the end of the first term, which were helpful. 

1 hour ago, OnTheMove said:

As you have probably gleaned from the forum, gaining real statistical data like that can be problematic and it’s very difficult to get. 
 

You’re probably aware that most forum members post about their experience, and knowledge, which they have gained from years of being a parent to a ballet dancer (where you’re very likely to come into contact with, and hear opinions of, people in the industry). 
 

When comparing ballet schools I think it’s very plain to see (from the forum and the sharing of people’s’ experiences), that Elmhurst have a higher proportion of their LS students entering the US when compared to other ballet schools. 
 

Of course some will be rejected - that’s the ballet journey I’m afraid. Of course others will choose to go for another school, or even a different career completely. 
 

You do not need statistics to glean that information. 

My DC was at Elmhurst until recently (but chose to leave before Year 11) and we had a different impression about progression rates to upper school (in recent years, so possibly the numbers progressing have decreased in the past few years?).

51 minutes ago, OnTheMove said:

Have you the data to back up your assertion? 

No, I don’t - that was my point: that was why I asked if anyone did have any data. I was conscious that we both seemed to be basing statements on impressions we had gleaned, which clearly isn’t helpful.

54 minutes ago, dancefanatic said:

Of my DC's year group at Elmhurst (3 years ago now), most of her Y11 class were offered places to continue.  Yes, 3 or 4 who wanted to stay on weren't offered places, others turned down the place and took places elsewhere or decided that following the vocational path was no longer for them.  A couple I am told regretted their decision to go elsewhere and some have left/dropped out during the US years, leaving just under a handful of ex-LS students in the graduating class.  Looking in from the outside, it would be reasonable to think the school hadn't wanted their LS students to continue but, being on the inside, this was not the case.  However, I can't speak about other year groups as each year is comprised of different students and will have a different experience.

Thank you very much, that’s very interesting and answers the question (for that year group at least).

7 hours ago, OnTheMove said:

The key point is that it’s not a case of being rejected by Elmhurst upper school that stops the students maybe continuing to upper school (like some schools), it’s getting offers from other places too. And that’s their choice. 
 

My original quote, in context, was about comparison, not just a statement of fact. 

I think I understood you correctly, I was just questioning your assertion: my understanding is that quite a few Year 11 students would like to continue but aren’t given offers. But as I said, I am happy to be proved wrong if anyone has any actual data.

22 hours ago, OnTheMove said:

I don’t think it’s because (like other schools) they have been refused a place on the whole.

 

More that they want to take their training down a different route, or simply go elsewhere. 
 

Of course some may be refused a place. But as I said in my original comment, compared to other schools a high proportion go on to their upper school after finishing their lower school. 

As far as I am aware, it is inaccurate to say that a “high proportion” go on to Elmhurst upper school. This is not my understanding. It would be interesting to know exact numbers from the past few years to clarify this one way or the other, if anybody has these?

12 hours ago, Farawaydancer said:

My ds has been there for 8 years and didn’t have homework all through lower school. 

 

My DC was a day student so I was a witness to them definitely doing homework! It was a source of stress for us because it was very difficult, by the time they’d got home after finishing school at 6, to fit in homework and a shower and get to bed early enough for a good night’s sleep.