annaliesey Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I had to post this question as i find it quite irritating that some students can either go straight in at a grade or skip grades altogether. Surely this makes a mockery of having grades in the first place I don't have a problem with individual people who need to start somewhere and trusting teachers decisions but the irritation comes when DD complains classes then slow down in pace Has anyone got any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chloe123 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 My (very limited) experience of this is that it's quite rare - at least it is at my daughters dance school. They are assessed when they join the school, start in the appropriate grade for their ability and go from there. If an older child with no ballet experience joins then they are not put in with the 5 year olds - they start in an age appropriate class but often don't do exams as they have so much to catch up on. There are separate exam classes which these children don't do though so it doesn't really slow down everyone else's progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I know very little about teaching ballet but I do have experience in putting children through Lamda & singing grades. If a child cones to you who is new you select a starting grade you think is most suitable. Sometimes it then becomes apparent that you have got it wrong. It may be that they are so close to the exam at that point you let them take it before putting them up, or if there is still a while to go you put them up a grade. Sometimes a student will for some reason progress at a much taste, unexpected rate. This most recently happened to me when a young student who had always shown immense talent decided to give up some of his other sporting activities & began attending class more regularly. In addition he began attending outside master classes etc on a regular basis. He had just started work towards Grade 2 but I made the decision that he would be best challenged by starting Grade 3 (in lamda the minimum recommended age for grade 3 is 11 years) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katymac Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 DD was yr 9 when she started Ballet - the teacher gave her 2 private lessons/assessments and placed her in a Grade 5 class on the understanding she also attended classes 2, 3 & 4 each week until the exam. The intention at that point was that she would not do the exam with the rest of the children in April, but the following exam submission. DD did her Grade 5 in that April & so did some of the other girls who had not planned to that exam then. But the teacher had also taught DD all of the other syllabi & tested her on them so she was ready (as apparently an examiner can ask about any of the previous Grades during the exam). I don't know how that helps your DD tho' sorry But DD still attends both lower & higher classes when she returns to the school in the holidays 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Pud Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Hi Annaliesey. I can understand yours and your daughter's frustration if she feels that she is constantly having to repeat things with newcomers entering her class. However, there is no requirement for any child to have to take exams at the end of every grade or even take any exams at all until Intermediate Level which I understand is required if you want to become a ballet teacher. Most dance schools do enter children for all of the graded exams every year but there are many dance schools who do not enter the children for exams at all. It makes no difference when applying for vocational schools whether or not a child has taken exams as long as they can show in the audition that they can dance at the required level and standard. My daughter did her Grade 1 RAD exam and then didn't sit another until Intermediate. Her dance teacher moved students individually from level to level as and when she felt they were ready rather than holding any back / pushing any too fast just because exam dates were looming. Having previously attended a school where progress was dictated by exam dates I thought this approach was excellent!! If you feel that your daughter could progress faster then have a word with her teacher. Perhaps she could skip an exam and move up to a more challenging level? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Thanks everyone Her teacher bought it up in conversation with me recently saying quite honestly she was having a bit of a dilemma as on the one hand, she is delighted to have had an influx of teenage ballet newbies but on the other hand, having such a variety of skill and personalities in a grade class makes it difficult to teach. She has decided to run technique classes for grouped grade equivalents and not put the newbies into the graded syllabus classes until she is happy with things because she realised it slows everyone else down. So frustrating though as it goes on so much across all syllabus styles and DD went through a bit of an unlucky patch where modern, tap, jazz and ballet all had influx of new students that hadn't done that style before and whilst she was pretty relaxed about other classes she has been getting really frustrated in ballet specifically She and I both realise it's just how the cookie crumbles and it's always gone on after all people have to start somewhere. There's a school near us that only does the odd number grades (1,3,5&7) and there's other schools we know of that usually do overlapping grades (1&2, 2&3, 3&4) etc but we've always been told that even though it's allowed it isn't a good idea otherwise the result is likely to be gaps in technique. It seems odd that even though it might not make a difference later on for vocational or post 16 courses, what is the actual benefit of all these years and time and money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 If she isn't on an associate scheme already, have you thought about trying that, or have you got a CAT scheme within sensible travelling distance. It just adds an extra dimension to things, plus lots of enjoyment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Pud Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 You definitely still have to put in the time and the money,and learn all of the technique - you just don't need to sit every exam or have the pace of your dds progress dictated by an annual exam 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Funny you should say that Jazzpaws as she's auditioning for one in May and if she gets accepted we are really hoping it will give that little bit more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 You definitely still have to put in the time and the money,and learn all of the technique - you just don't need to sit every exam or have the pace of your dds progress dictated by an annual exam Funny you should mention that: my piano teacher wasn't a huge fan of exams, and only put me in for every other one. I think she thought it didn't so much matter as long as you actually reached the level: I still don't have an even-graded exam certificate to my name 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilacfairy Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) That's exactly right Yorkshire pud, also as you work through the grades you are building up strength to tackle the harder steps allegro etc, there's no fast track you have to put in the hours. Edited March 29, 2015 by lilacfairy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Funny you should say that Jazzpaws as she's auditioning for one in May and if she gets accepted we are really hoping it will give that little bit more Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Annaliesey, you asked why start early and do all those years of training if it's not going to make any difference when it comes to applying for pre-professional training... IMHO most children who go to ballet classes are not going to be professional dancers. Ballet classes kept my daughter fit, flexible, strong, taught her discipline, commitment, teamwork, gave her poise, good posture, self-confidence. I could go on. That's why she went to ballet class from a young age, not because I thought she'd want to go to dance college and beyond. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I suppose exams, while not obligatory, do add a structure to training. But clearly not all kids take all exams for various reasons - incl parent's finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 To add to the above I think my dd would struggle with motivation if she never had an exam to aim for- the sense of achievement. She started an instrument last yr and didn't do an exam. Did one this year and the exam on the horizon did wonders for practice and progress!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 JulieW you're right there in terms of early stages at least even if she's not going to be a professional dancer she certainly seems focused on a career in dance somewhere. (mind you, my DS wanted to be Indiana Jones at that age!) I think it's just making some classes a bit frustrating and a bit tiresome. She came home recently saying she had been really pleased to have nearly finished learning one of the syllabus dances in the class only for them to stop and do other exercises because some newbies weren't getting something and she's been looking forward to practising the dance the whole way through She's just huffing and puffing a little bit to me but would never shoe feelings in class or to her teacher. By the sounds of it she hasn't had to as her teacher has seen an opportunity to change things about for everyone's benefit. It's just me that's questioning how there can be such a variation in how schools address exams/grades/skipping grades/new entrants/whether to have exams at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Meant to say Katymac that that sounds like it was a good plan At our school they tend to get assessed then go into one class/grade only In my DD's tap class there was an intake of 4 teenage newbies purely because they only wanted to do one term because they were involved in a production with another organisation where they were going to do a bit of tap Our dance teacher must be patient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 We've been on both sides of this problem. DD has been the "skipper" so missed a good chunk of Grade 1 having been held back in a Primary class for 18 months only to join (at great controversy) a class taking their Grade 1 exam in less than 3 months. Her teacher was adamant she could cope but the school Principal, who had never seen my DD, was not happy. Funnily enough my partner overheard the school secretary watching my DD in this exam ready class say to another mother "oh it looks like she's been doing it for ages!" She never did take her grade 1 (too young) and joined another school at grade 2 after their Principal actually watched her perform to her satisfaction. She also continued a Grade 1 class on the side but only for another two terms. Good communication and an awareness of the class dynamic are essential. We left that school because of the inflexibility and disinterest in helping my DD reach her potential. We weren't the only ones either! However, we have experienced being the "skippee" and it can be frustrating because it highlights that ballet classes are a business. The school will only flourish if new children are encouraged even if this disrupts a class. Older children will feel far too self conscious starting in a Primary class with tiny babies and where do you start with teenagers??!! I've seen our teacher use her more experienced students as mini-teachers to demonstrate technique (supervised still but a step up for them in terms of self reliance) and this encourages a friendly and helping class atmosphere for the newbies. I would love my DD to do an associate course but I'm not sure she will be suitable so in the meantime we just have to grit our teeth and realise their are a lot of factors running a class and sometimes what's best for some isn't best for all. Our DC are committed and dedicated and self disciplined that will stand them in much better stead to ride out these disruptions! We are only on the very early grades though so I can imagine with older children, higher up the syllabus very much more is at stake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I do sympathise with your DD Annaliesey but I bet some of those newbies must envy her experience and accomplishment! X 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I remember at my local dancing school doing Primary ,Grade 1 and then going into Grade 3. Remember a couple of years later some routine,combination or step,that I hadn`t learned in Grade 2 and I had absolutely no idea what it was. My then teacher,was very surprised when she realised I didn`t not only not know it but I had never even heard of the step.! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wasn't alonglaise *cough I mean assembles perchance? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 This is also something else I have picked up from this forum - thequays did you breezily hint that you'd never been taught the step, along with a world weary shrug and an innocent wide eyed look of neglect? I've read this is an excellent technique in an exam UNLESS your actual teacher is in the room, in which case - exit examiner and the biblical wrath of your teacher will descend upon you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 DD didn't do all music exams as her teacher felt that she was bored with the syllabus work for the 'next' exam and therefore she didn't take that exam but went straight to the higher one. It did cause some muttering and moaning from other children and parents but we just smiled and told them to ask the teacher if they wanted to know why DD wasn't taking every exam, as it was the teacher's decision. She did all graded exams up to grade 4, then moved on to the vocational exams so this didn't happen with ballet, but we had similar backbiting when she was moved into a ballet class with children who were at least 12 months older than her, some 4 years older than her. Once again we found that smiling and referring the backbiters to the teachers with their queries soon shut them up (and they never did go to challenge the teachers..) It sounds as though your teacher has seen the problem and is dealing with it, Annaliesey, which is great. Unfortunately children do develop and learn at different rates and it must be nightmareish at times for teachers who are trying to deal with a wide range of abilities and knowledge in one class, as well as welcoming older newbies to a class where they fit in age-wise but not necessarily knowledge or technique-wise. I suppose it does teach our children important lessons about respecting others' feelings, patience - and dealing with backbiting children and parents! which can only stand them in good stead for their future lives in general. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Most of us non vocational teachers have a range of abilities in class and it does take careful management to ensure everyone gets the benefit. At the end of the day we are still struggling businesses and most of us can not afford to turn away new students. I had a mum very upset when her daughters tiny class turned nearly twice the size overnight although it was still well within the class size limit that I impose. It was one of several tiny classes Id inherited when I took over the business. "I ve been paying for small class sizes" was her main gripe. Luckily I was able to reassure her that her dd wouldnt be held back and would still do the next exam on schedule ( very exam orientated in my area!.) The harsh fact was that the class would have either closed or I would have had to raise fees. At the time it wasnt even breaking even, and thats without paying myself as the teacher! Six months later the pupils are all progressing well and those eligible and willing are taking exams next term. The slightly younger ones are no trouble and are progressing very nicely as the older students have made excellent role models!My pianist and assistant are still in a job and I can now take a modest payment too. I like students to progress thoroughly but its the work covered that matters not the actual exam itself although for many students the incentive of an exam does indeed do wonders for their technique and I do encourage as many students as possible to do them for this reason. But there is so much more to dance training than just syllabus.. I digress! Sorry! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance*is*life Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I tend to skip grades with older beginners, who might start off in a lowish grade for their age, but often catch up and pass the younger girls who may have been learning for some years. I have a student who took Intermediate this session. She is just 15 and also goes to a middle school with a dance stream, so the extra classes there gave her the push she needed to go from Grade 4 to Intermediate in three years. Last year she took IF and got a very good Distinction and after the exams I jumped her to the next level and she went up with them this year to Intermediate. When I do this it is never at the expense of the girls already in the class. We only have one exam session in March, so we do non-syllabus classes when exams are over in order to start teaching them the new steps for the next year. Having multiple exam sessions in a year has the advantage that if you're not ready for one session, you could be for the next, but with that comes the disadvantage that new girls are constantly coming up to the next level and having to either try and pick up by themselves, or to hold back the rest of the class. Frustrating to those having to repeat............ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 My older daughter who unlike younger sister only did ballet as a hobby never took Pre Primary, Primary or Grade 4. Her first teacher always seems to think she didn't suit exams although she always got merit when entered. Eventually she moved schools and was so far behind those of her age was allowed to skip four and take five which thankfully she passed. When they get older I think they find it difficult to be in classes with much younger girls, in our case she called it a day when DD overtook her and took Inter Foundation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wow so many helpful comments .. Thanks everyone Petalviolet I did have as chuckle remembering some mum drama that occurred with a skippee of primary grade! My gosh that can be the biggest sin and I'm sure the mums of the teeny ones can be more fierce sometimes!! But the comment you made about being a bit envious is true not from other children but from other mums which is crazy as she just happens to have spent a lot of time dancing. If she had spent 8 years learning basketball she'd probably be quite good at that too! Who knows? The difference between pure talent and someone who just works hard is something I don't understand when it comes to ballet so I just leave that to the teachers. What I definitely have seen and overheard though are comments along the lines of "better than you" when someone skips a grade or goes straight in at a high grade. Usually it levels out though as that person tends to stay in the grade for a long time. All in all I'm not fussed as long as DD happy with what she's doing regardless of what anyone else is doing. I completely sympathise with the commercial aspects of running a profitable dance school, that must be very tricky hfbrew! Things changed for us too when our dance school moved into own premises about 2 1/2yrs ago. Suddenly a lot of our classes went from 4-6 to about 12 average! Some of our mums moaned big time but than was softened by more opportunity for other classes such as stretch etc As much as I support the teacher and school I've just learned if I don't like something then I can't expect them to change but rather do something else. For example I took DD to a taster day at Birmingham Royal Ballet today and she absolutely loved it! Things like this are pretty easy to book and do in the holidays 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 a related question is the "recommended hours" and whether they are meaningful or to be ignored! I think the lower grades had something like 80 hours for grade 1 etc and at one class a week it would be two years per exam but I often hear of students doing an exam after a year so I wonder at the purpose of this recommendation too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) The ISTD have the guideline that students starting late or skipping grades should be "at an appropriate level of physical and artistic development" before being allowed to join a graded class. IMO this sums it up perfectly. Many years ago I had experience of the "peer-group" type of school where people were graded by age rather than ability, which sounds like the situation your DD is in, Annaliesey. The school was extremely cavalier about whether you were technically ready to move up or not. Grades were skipped at random to fit in with timetabling constraints. Only the better people in any class were allowed to take the exams, but everyone got moved up together regardless, and new teenagers or those starting a new dance style were just put in with their peer group. The perception was that only the "haves" were taught properly (they were in fact taught very well and got good exam results); the "have-nots" were just there to hand over their money & make up the numbers. They were not taken seriously, because they were just there "for fun" & were rarely given corrections as there was "no point" because they were not being prepared for the exams. It is likely that this negative experience has influenced my subsequent beliefs that skipping grades (the work, as opposed to the exam itself) is a no-no and that people should move up at their own pace. Edited March 31, 2015 by youngatheart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I hadn't even considered the time tabling/handing over money aspects and how attention could be biased to the "haves". But it doesn't seem like that. I could be wrong but from what DD says it appears more likely attention having to be given to newbies regardless of whether they are a "have" or "have not" as they need the time sand attention more when they first join a grade or have skipped into a grade and the teacher is very keen to welcome, encourage and keep them We do on the other side of things have older /longer serving pupils who have stuck in grades for a lot longer than others as presumably not ready to move up and they have probably done more than recommended hours. I know its only a guide but still difficult to understand how this works to the advantage of some but disadvantage of others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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