Flora Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I heard a rumour that some of the top schools may ear-mark places at US for one or two dancers who have not trained at vocational school but come up through other routes. Does anyone know if this is true or if it is just another case of mis-information circulating on the parent/ballet grapevine?! If it is true, I wonder if these places would be allocated on a positive discrimination basis - so the dancer would not need or be expected to be as advanced as another dancer who has trained vocationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I don't know the answer but I would doubt that this is true. Why would a dancer who is not as "good" be offered a place at the expense of a better one? It doesn't make sense to do that IMO. Children at vocational schools have sacrificed home life and, in the case of their parents, a large amount of money (even if on MDS/DaDa) so it doesn't seem to me "fair" to do this, if it is done... I guess the auditioning panel might adjust their view of the candidate on offer. eg. - this candidate has reached this level on only one hour of ballet a week - that is amazing and so we have to see what they can do on ten hours/week. But otherwise I don't think that there should be positive discrimination as such, based on just the fact that the candidate has just not been at vocational school. I think that there should be positive discrimination for ethnic minority children (British asian/black) as they seem underrepresented, but that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I would suspect that this is another rumour. Its more than possible that certain dancers might catch the eye of teachers from vocational schools who sit on the panel at auditions but surely the decision is made by a panel on the basis of an audition? I know that I was talking to a woman at a workshop day a couple of weeks before my DD started auditions and she told me her DS had already been offered places at 2 vocational schools and 1 FE college at a boys only dance day - all prior to audition. I was really shocked when the students did the little 'show the parents bit' at the end of the workshop and she pointed out her DS as even to my untrained eye he was nowhere near the level of the other students there and definitely the 2 younger boys had better technique. I don't know whether he did in the end audition anywhere or not but I do know that he did not go to any of the schools she claimed her had places for. Easy way for a rumour to start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletqs Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I very much doubt this is the case at all. Definitely rumour! All candidates are taken on face value and assessed on the schools acceptance criteria. The highest 'scorers' win the places and I believe most schools will look for a uniform look within a year group not height necessarily but they will have certain types of physique and dancer etc in there. They want the students who show the most aptitude to the training in the audition and that is the bottom line. They don't play games. Gosh don't things get carried away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I guess the auditioning panel might adjust their view of the candidate on offer. eg. - this candidate has reached this level on only one hour of ballet a week - that is amazing and so we have to see what they can do on ten hours/week. But otherwise I don't think that there should be positive discrimination as such, based on just the fact that the candidate has just not been at vocational school. I think that there should be positive discrimination for ethnic minority children (British asian/black) as they seem underrepresented, but that's all. I agree with the first part. A certain level needs to have been attained for entry to upper school, but schools are still looking for potential and maybe if a candidate is currently not of quite as high a standard as another, they might be accepted over someone else if the school thinks they have more potential and will reach a higher standard at the end of the training. I disagree that there should be positive discrimination for children of ethnic minorities. I think each candidate should be evaluated on his or her own merits and ethnicity is irrelevant. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I absolutely agree with you invisiblecircus, particularly the last paragraph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I heard a rumour that some of the top schools may ear-mark places at US for one or two dancers who have not trained at vocational school but come up through other routes. Does anyone know if this is true or if it is just another case of mis-information circulating on the parent/ballet grapevine?! If it is true, I wonder if these places would be allocated on a positive discrimination basis - so the dancer would not need or be expected to be as advanced as another dancer who has trained vocationally. I like to think that I generally have an ear to the parent/ballet grapevine, and have never heard of this, and IMHO I think this rumour is highly likely to be untrue. If it is true however, then I would sincerely hope that the places would be awarded on merit rather than by some 'positive discrimination'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I hope/thought it was probably only a rumour too. I guess there is always just a lot of speculation I can also imagine the best dancer in technical terms may not be the one with the most potential having said that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can also imagine the best dancer in technical terms may not be the one with the most potential having said that. Yes, they are probably looking for the ones who will benefit most from their own particular system of training, and are on the look-out for raw talent and as-yet unrealised potential as well as those who are already at an advanced level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) My teacher used to help at auditions for an Upper School many years ago. She said that she once queried why an outstanding dancer who turned up had not got a place. She was told that the panel felt that there was nothing else to teach her and that she wouldnt benefit from their training. Whilst this thread is based on a rumour (how quickly they spread!) it does show that panels do have an open mind. They do know from the applications that some students wont be as advanced as others due to restricted training opportunities but will still consider them if they show enough talent snd potential. Dont like the thought of positive discrimation. My ds trained with several wonderful students of "ethnic minority". They I am sure would be insulted to think that they got their places on anything other than merit. They are all dancers with big name companies now. Edited March 2, 2015 by hfbrew 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think in the right setting positive discrimination can work well. For example is the MDS award not positive discrimination? An award that supports families with less funds more than families that earn a higher wage? As for positive discrimination for ethnic minorities at audition, I agree wouldn't be a good idea. What would be great is finding a way to encourage more ethnic minorities to the audition stage where they would stand the same chance as every other child there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I am probably going to be told I am very wrong but I feel there is a degree of 'wrongness' for want of not using a stronger word. A student known to one of my friends has managed to bag finals for every school, the odd thing is although very beautiful and looking the part in a 'wow' kind of way her technique and dancing ability is poor, my friends daughter at all the same auditions with a mark of 90 in both advanced 1 and 2 is less beautiful with glasses and ginger hair .....not one final audition for her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think that the RB's Chance to Dance scheme has been a very good initiative in widening access to ballet training. As it operates in London many BAME children (as well as children from poorer backgrounds) have been identified as having potential at 7 or 8. There are now quite a few black men in British companies now (although some of them have come from abroad) but fewer black women. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think in the right setting positive discrimination can work well. For example is the MDS award not positive discrimination? An award that supports families with less funds more than families that earn a higher wage? The youngsters are awarded a place on merit, not on the basis of need. The MDS then provides financial assistance to those families whose dc's would not be able to accept the place without it. That isn't positive discrimination. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't agree taxi. Take the awarding of a place out of the equation. Let's imagine we have 24 children all suitable for training all with different family incomes. In order for these children to train the government finds itself in a situation where it must give more money to one child than another. In order for the system to work and to make sure lower income families are not losing out it must try to even the balance. Positive discrimination doesn't have to be only on racial terms but can and does work on economic terms. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 That's not how MDS works peach. Each school is allocated x number of awards. These arawarded on merit. The government then sets a sliding scale on income as to what discount on the feed each child is entitled to. The number of awards remains the same whether or not each child gets 100 fees paid or 10% paid. (It is different firDada though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You are missing the point. The point is the government have set up a system that means they end up giving more money to families who need more. So that children that experts in their field have chosen to receive expert training can train alongside each other irrespective of family income. It has nothing to do with how the award works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I was told that dada are awarded to the most talented students. I find that hard. This means if your dancing child is 'the best' you might be very well off financially but still get a dada when a child that is slightly less talented but from a very poor family ends up unable to have training ....that to me is unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 But that's not positive discrimination. Positive discrimibation would be if the children from lower incone families we're allocated places above those ftom higher income ones in the way that some universities allegedly award places to children from state schools above private ones. THE MDS. System is means tested bursaries available to all. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 But I feel sad that kids that have just as much right to training are having to turn down places because they cannot afford it without a dada that is possibly awarded to someone that does not need it financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't know the answer but I would doubt that this is true. Why would a dancer who is not as "good" be offered a place at the expense of a better one? It doesn't make sense to do that IMO. Children at vocational schools have sacrificed home life and, in the case of their parents, a large amount of money (even if on MDS/DaDa) so it doesn't seem to me "fair" to do this, if it is done... I guess the auditioning panel might adjust their view of the candidate on offer. eg. - this candidate has reached this level on only one hour of ballet a week - that is amazing and so we have to see what they can do on ten hours/week. But otherwise I don't think that there should be positive discrimination as such, based on just the fact that the candidate has just not been at vocational school. I think that there should be positive discrimination for ethnic minority children (British asian/black) as they seem underrepresented, but that's all. I think in the right setting positive discrimination can work well. For example is the MDS award not positive discrimination? An award that supports families with less funds more than families that earn a higher wage? As for positive discrimination for ethnic minorities at audition, I agree wouldn't be a good idea. What would be great is finding a way to encourage more ethnic minorities to the audition stage where they would stand the same chance as every other child there. My DD's would be horrified if they felt that they had been awarded a place because of the colour of their skin. More money needs to be put into opportunities for children of all backgrounds in order that they can achieve the required standard but imagine how uncomfortable a situation it would be if, on achieving a place at a school or in a company, they were made to feel that they had not earned it, the same as others. Scholarships and funding for families with lower incomes, which often goes hand in hand with the issue of race, I am in favour of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I personally feel that the MDS system is much fairer than the DaDa one because families (in principal) pay when they are deemed to be able to afford regardless of the total amount in the pot. Ok it's not ever quite that simple & doesn't account for a family in debt or with larger than usual outgoing for example but no system will ever be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I am probably going to be told I am very wrong but I feel there is a degree of 'wrongness' for want of not using a stronger word. A student known to one of my friends has managed to bag finals for every school, the odd thing is although very beautiful and looking the part in a 'wow' kind of way her technique and dancing ability is poor, my friends daughter at all the same auditions with a mark of 90 in both advanced 1 and 2 is less beautiful with glasses and ginger hair .....not one final audition for her! Ballet schools or MT schools? What do you mean by "every" school? There must be more to the story. I hope your friends DD did not wear her glasses to the auditions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Personally I think it is fair that the tax payer only subsidises the most talented children and the number of subsidised places should reflect the amount of employment opportunities in this country. I thought those above a certain threshold didn't get any funding from dadas anyway? For some minority groups ballet is not an acceptable occupation/ hobby because of the dress code and use of the body and I have a number of friends who would not send their children because at some point they would be expected to give up. There are also differences in skeleton and body make up between races which may reduce the likelihood of being chosen but apply across the board so don't think that is discrimination. Obviously true discrimination should not be tolerated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sorry invisiblecircus .....I should have said these are all ballet vocational schools I was talking about. No dd friend did not wear glasses to auditions but of course had to keep her red hair and freckles bless her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katymac Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Well DD had an MDS, now has been offerd a DaDA & is also Mixed Race; I hope she got these plus the additional scholarships & subsidised associate places because of her ability not her colour! It is thought to take 3 generations for children to assimilate into a country's culture (Ballet, Opera, Horse Riding, Cricket) - as DD's dad was born in Jamaicia it has skipped a couple - possibly because of me - we went without so DD could go swimming, gym, Brownies etc, possibly because as her dad was medically retired & retrained as a ballroom teacher & taught her - who knows But it's a good job she wants to do Musical Theatre as I have lost count of the number of people (teachers/examiners included) who thought it pointless to do Ballet, as Black girls (she isn't black she is mixed!!) can't do Ballet at a high level (which I know to be untrue) Edited to add physiological differences are real - DD has White ankles but a black bum/hips!! Edited March 2, 2015 by Katymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 What's wrong with ginger hair and freckles. I really believe that if this young girl has not secured a final audition at all the schools, then perhaps she is not ready yet and it definately has nothing to do with her prettiness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaybackSapphire Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I should hope that all auditionees are given a fair chance, regardless of training, financial circumstances or indeed race! I shudder to think that this wouldn't be the case!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circe Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Not sure if this is helpful or not but any publicly funded Higher Education institutions that want to charge £9k fees have to have an access- OFFA agreement. So Central and Rambert for example, as part of the Conservatoire of Dance and Drama are covered by an access agreement that covers all the conservatoire schools. Amongst the milestones set out in their OFFA agreemen thttp://www.offa.org.uk/access-agreements/searchresult/?prn=10001653 are: Milestone 1: To maintain a figure of 45% of UK students who are new to higher education coming from families with incomes of £42,611 or less. Milestone 2: A minimum of 85% of UK students coming from state schools or from prevocational training paid for by the state by 2015-16, or a 0.5% increase each year. I guess its feasible that the rumour cited in the first message in the thread stems from this (which is not relevant to MDS, Dada funded institutions or private HEIs) Edited March 2, 2015 by chaperone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Katymac that is disturbing. I heard people say black girls don't have the right body shape for ballet many years ago. I just presumed it was a prejudice that had died out over time. Very upsetting to think there are people who still think that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katymac Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 It's even worse that they think it's acceptable to say it Some did it by misdirection - her hair will never be a 'proper Ballet bun' or obviously she doesn't have the right 'body type' for ballet or even 'well she could hardly be a cygnet in Swan Lake could she?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 That is truly awful. Personally I would love some more diversity in body types when I watch ballet. What are 'white ankles' btw?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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