SwissBalletFan Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I really raised an eyebrow when I read Polunin couldn't even afford to buy a proper dinner on his Principal salary (?). So what was he spending his salary on? (...) T I am not an expert, but I believe cocaine is quite an expensive drug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 If one dancer had concerns perhaps they can be dismissed, but when two are saying pretty much the same thing it gives pause for thought. It does; but what about the many who say differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 It does; but what about the many who say differently? They know which side their bread is buttered on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 If one dancer had concerns perhaps they can be dismissed, but when two are saying pretty much the same thing it gives pause for thought. That's only two... out of how many...? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Surely - and this is not meant as a criticism but as a fact - many young people show something of a herd mentality, possibly because they are not yet sufficiently comfortable in their own skins to risk the opprobrium of being different. Added to this, most have not been exposed to what is often described as 'the high arts' and many fear being categorised as 'elitist'. As a result, the majority would not even consider attending these art forms and those who do will generally only attend something that is recommended by their peer group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) Polunin did have enough money to invest in the much mentioned tattoo parlour in North London. There was a thread a while back about salaries at the RB. The RB pays well. Yes, an elite ballet dancer does not earn anything like the amount that a pretty average banker or footballer earns (Darcey used to go on about this) but that's how things are and as a supremely talented principal with the RB he would in a few years have been able to top up his salary by guesting and doing promotional work eg adverts. Regrettably, (IMO) he was impetuous and impatient and walked out of the RB rather than biding his tine for a couple of years and then negotiating more freedom to do other things / guest elsewhere. It would be interesting to know whether he has lost or gained financially in the five years since he left the RB. Not that it's all about money of course but it's something that he's frequently alluded to. There are two things that I do have some sympathy with. First, at the time of Polunin's departure there seems to have been a bit of a dearth of talent in the male ranks of the RB which may have made it more difficult for him to be released to guest etc. Secondly, it is extremely difficult for young people to buy somewhere to live in London these days, particularly as a single person and without substantial financial help. Edited March 4, 2017 by aileen 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Not only that, but in the season in which he left the RB he had a large number of debuts scheduled: something I only really registered in retrospect. Needing to work on all those roles might have left little space available for him to fit in other projects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 IMO it was a rather selfish teenage act of behaviour and he probably didn't even read the contract he signed when joining the RB. He naively assumed he would be able to do as he wished to do. I have no doubt the RB tried to nurture him but he was unwilling to do it on their well-intended terms. He behaved as any unruly teenager does: dismiss authority and advice, thinking they know better. If he was unwilling to put in the hard work (daily class, rehearsals, followed by performances,...) - thinking life is one big party - he did the right thing: to leave a life which demands utmost daily disciple and dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Oh dear. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 They know which side their bread is buttered on? Only whilst they're in the company. I'm sure there are times when the RB fails individuals, as all employers do (even good ones). But I wouldn't say that there's extensive evidence of lack of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Fascinating thread but have never seen Polunin so just interested in what people are saying and it's all very interesting!! However I AM fascinated as to what class myself and many other friends and ballet friends belong to who go to the ROH. By ballet friends I mean still dancing ballet friends and ex dancing ballet friends both amateur( mostly) and professional. Not sure whether we're the "Hoi poloi" lot .....probably ....but definitely not the upper middle class set either!! I've never sat next to or ever talked to anybody in the latter class at the ROH ( perhaps they are at the Opera?) I'm a funny mixture of working class and what would be the old lower middle class ....but perhaps now graduated to middle class by age and previous effort at work? I would be categorised as more or less elderly if being over retirement age is elderly ...but not wealthy....I didn't own my own property till I was 45 ....so do get a bit fed up with some younger people especially those in their 20's moaning about not having enough money etc etc. Anyway what is this post really about ....ah yes please tell me I've got this wrong are you saying ...Lindsay ...that Polunin was objecting being paid just to entertain us old upper middle class folk!! I hope this is a misunderstanding." Entertainment " is perjorative in this sense I think as if the audience has no ability to have any form of discernment or judgement about what they are seeing. I do really hate this lumping together of people as if all old people and all young people have absolutely nothing in common at all as well.....only older people do this ...and only younger people do that. Well last week I attended a performance at the ROH three ballet classes a yoga class and a ballet workshop and then on the same evening danced like a maniac at a local pub in Lewes to a great band playing punk/ska/ Rock/ you name it/ on what was supposed to be the landlords last day there!! I don't know whether this is typical of a ballet audience at the ROH but I suspect I am in the end much more typical than all the upper middle classes supposed to be there just sitting to be "entertained" So if this is true Polunin shouldn't be pre judging his audiences in this way in my view .....even if it turns out he is a brilliant dancer or the best in the world etc etc. But no doubt and hopefully another piece of info which isn't quite true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 IMO it was a rather selfish teenage act of behaviour and he probably didn't even read the contract he signed when joining the RB. He naively assumed he would be able to do as he wished to do. I have no doubt the RB tried to nurture him but he was unwilling to do it on their well-intended terms. He behaved as any unruly teenager does: dismiss authority and advice, thinking they know better. If he was unwilling to put in the hard work (daily class, rehearsals, followed by performances,...) - thinking life is one big party - he did the right thing: to leave a life which demands utmost daily disciple and dedication. I am with you, Nina G. I have seen him dance and he was wonderful, but I think RB would need to think very hard before taking him back in anything other than a guest spot. From what I can read Mr. Polunin has a lot of growing up to do before he can be considered for joining a company where, as you say, daily discipline and dedication are the creed by which they must live. I am beginning to find him somewhat boring now and wonder if he sees himself playing the artistic rebel when he is in his forties? I cannot see that he has progressed in any way since leaving RB and there may be limited opportunities for him in the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) I am with you, Nina G. I have seen him dance and he was wonderful, but I think RB would need to think very hard before taking him back in anything other than a guest spot. From what I can read Mr. Polunin has a lot of growing up to do before he can be considered for joining a company where, as you say, daily discipline and dedication are the creed by which they must live. I am beginning to find him somewhat boring now and wonder if he sees himself playing the artistic rebel when he is in his forties? I cannot see that he has progressed in any way since leaving RB and there may be limited opportunities for him in the future. I agree, Penelope. Vis a vis the RB - there is so much wealth now in its own ranks - I would go so far to say that - other than in an emergency situation - there is no current need for guests. Such only takes opportunity away from its own ranks. As far as Polunin is concerned - surely it is time - as he suggests he wants to - to simply move on. May he be happy in whatever life course(s) he chooses. Enough said. Surely. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bruce Wall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I cannot see that he has progressed in any way since leaving RB and there may be limited opportunities for him in the future. Really?!?!?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 . I am beginning to find him somewhat boring now and wonder if he sees himself playing the artistic rebel when he is in his forties? I cannot see that he has progressed in any way since leaving RB and there may be limited opportunities for him in the future. Nigel Kennedy has been playing the "artistic rebel" for decades now, doesn't seem to have done his career that much harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissBalletFan Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) H Really?!?!?! He was the youngest ever principal at RB and was promised to the new Nureyev, and the most talented dancer seen in many years. He has progressed in age and some roles, but I agree with penelope that he hasn't fulfilled his early promise, in that he is not really the most sought after dancer by all ballet companies. Sure, he is a more famous person, known by more people, but so is Misty Copeland and she is also nowhere near the most talented dancer there is right now. In another development, I also see that Mr Polunin has started the treatment to remove the Natascha tattoo from his hand, a sad development. I wish Mr Polunin all the best, but like famous sportsmen and rock stars, the 'most boring and professional' can outlast and become more successful than the most naturally talented, which undoubtedly he was (is). Edited March 6, 2017 by SwissBalletFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I wish Mr Polunin all the best, but like famous sportsmen and rock stars, the 'most boring and professional' can outlast and become more successful than the most naturally talented, which undoubtedly he was (is). Though I generally agree with that statement, I don't want to watch a boring classical dancer, there are enough of those around already. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saodan Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Having spent some time considering my thoughts on this, I have come to the conclusion that whilst Polunin is clearly a wonderfully gifted dancer, he does not have the disposition to be a good company dancer. As Penelope has said, it takes more than pure talent to make it in a classical ballet company. You need a certain humility, a commitment to the company and its artistic vision, and a preparedness to dedicate oneself fully to rehearsals in order to produce the best possible results for the company, not yourself. Polunin’s current engagement with ballet companies appears to be self serving in that he parachutes in, performs, and leaves. Whilst his performances may be good, and he may attract audiences and attention, I can’t believe that the company will benefit in the long term. Certainly it is at odds with comments made by other dancers about wanting to get to know the companies they guest with. As others have said, Polunin must either move on or face up to the realities of being a company dancer. I would be sceptical of him having any further involvement with the Royal Ballet so long as his focus remains squarely on his own career rather than his role as one cog, all be it an important one, in a collaborative art form. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilian88 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Polunin's reasoning is really simple: if a dancer is happy and satisfied to live and work as an employee of a big company, good, but if a dancer wants to manage, independently, his life, his career and his creativity, well, there is life outside the big companies and he can do it or if a dancer wants to have more say in decisions affecting his career, or want to be more protected, he has the right to ask for it, without risking repercussions. I really don't understand what's so wrong, offensive or immature in this. When I try to explain the "Polunin-scandal" to people who are complete strangers to the world of ballet, they simply don't understand. I told them the story and they asked me "Ok, but what's the scandal?" and this is because we are not in the Middle Ages, and The Royal Ballet should be an institution, a point of reference, not a sect! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilian88 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Two short video-interviews with Sergei Polunin after the premiere of Dancer in London. I found particularly nice his words about the importance of dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Nigel Kennedy has been playing the "artistic rebel" for decades now, doesn't seem to have done his career that much harm. He has but it is a little easier for a musician to perform 'alone' even if that means guesting with orchestras or creating his own band, than it is for a dancer. Whilst most of us would have turned up to see Nureyev recite his shopping list, he had a huge body of work behind him and was clearly dedicated to dance. I certainly think that Sergei Polunin should do whatever makes him happy - clearly he hasn't the temperament for the daily grind that is an artiste's lot within a company. If its tattoos fine, if he wants to be an engine driver, again, fine. But for my money what he needs to do is stop blaming the world for his failure to find satisfaction. Dance is what it is and whilst I am sure that conditions for dancers can always be improved, I don't really want to be continually lectured on the failure of the system by an artiste, however gifted, who has failed to find his niche in an art form which I love. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Polunin's reasoning is really simple: if a dancer is happy and satisfied to live and work as an employee of a big company, good, but if a dancer wants to manage, independently, his life, his career and his creativity, well, there is life outside the big companies and he can do it or if a dancer wants to have more say in decisions affecting his career, or want to be more protected, he has the right to ask for it, without risking repercussions. I really don't understand what's so wrong, offensive or immature in this. When I try to explain the "Polunin-scandal" to people who are complete strangers to the world of ballet, they simply don't understand. I told them the story and they asked me "Ok, but what's the scandal?" and this is because we are not in the Middle Ages, and The Royal Ballet should be an institution, a point of reference, not a sect! There would be nothing wrong or immature in his views if he showed any awareness of the fact that, as Saodan said, ballet is a collaborative art form, and that going it completely alone (especially from a very young age) is pretty well impossible and very unlikely to result in artistic growth. Someone like Sylvie Guillem clearly did understand these things, and combined company membership and solo ventures with great intelligence (and she was hardly a conformist 'employee' - I'm sure she found the RB frustrating at times, but she also used the company to her own great benefit). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Yes I cannot quite understand his stance. I agree with a post Aileen made ...a bit way back on the thread now....but if only he could have "held his horses" so to speak. He could have developed a fantastic following at the RB and even no doubt enticed in the much younger audience he seems to crave as the word got about ( as with Nureyev) Then at that point could probably have dictated his own terms. A pity he didn't meet Osipova a bit earlier he could have learned a thing or two from her ( even though it may be ( I don't know) are now no longer together) Looking at what he seems to be saying and needing maybe the ENB would actually be a better fit than the Royal for him as he would certainly get the ballet out to the "masses" and new audiences more and probably be given room for innovative projects. I understand his desire for innovation as such a young man but this still has to,be backed up with something more solid in the long run really he could do both and I hope he manages to find a way as although I don't approve of too many "special exceptions" being made if he is as talented as people say and a one of dancer in a generation ..... as in the likes of Nureyev and Baryshnikov....then one hopes he can make something work so people can see him .....and he will have all,the fame he will need......though this supposed desire just for fame may not be true about him of course .....just people's opinions who don't know him very well. I cannot say much on him as a dancer as although I've seen all the videos ......and the piece he danced live after his film last week has been around quite a while now on the Internet .....as I feel I cannot really assess a dancer until have seen a live performance. I've not booked to see him at SW as couldn't get any idea what the programme would be and I know some of these sorts of events can be a bit disappointing. However if the reviews are ecstatic etc I may well try and turn up for a return on the final Saturday ....some hope I know!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Just to mention that dancers work EXTREMELY hard at ENB 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I know Capybara ...especially when touring around all,over the place....but if he wants to reach a larger audience ( then the ancient stuffed shirts at ROH....sorry ...joke) then he would do this better with ENB than with the Royal. I don't see how he can really survive that well just doing one of bits and pieces ...as at the Wells ...sooner or later people are going to want to see him do more major roles. But who knows we are in the age where apparently everybody has to have at least three or four careers up their sleeves ....perhaps he can manage on bits of live dancing bits of dancing film and bits of non dancing film.....maybe we will even see him doing some live acting on a stage!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 H , but so is Misty Copeland and she is also nowhere near the most talented dancer there is right now. Why bring Misty Copeland into it? There are lots of other dancers who are famous that are nowhere the most talented dancer.... Being the most talented dancer there is right now is somewhat a matter of opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VickyPage Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Just want to apologise if I offended anyone with the 'hoi polloi' comment. Being a classicist, I meant it literally as 'the many', rather than as a class based reference. Since I am very frank about the fact that I can only afford the cheap seats for ballet performances, I am definitely not one to judge in terms of class or education of ballet goers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 No need to apologize for introducing a classical Greek term, though as it is frequently misused and misunderstood it's generally better to leave alone. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Sorry Vicky Page it's probably my rather ambling post above which went on about it!! In response to yours and Lindsay's posts. Every so often I get a bit carried away when ROH audience compilation comes up!! It's just I never seem to see all these higher classes who are supposed to be there just ordinary folk like myself mostly who just enjoy ballet. I know I should go to the opera more but although I love listening to it don't feel the need to go to performances so much and perhaps the opera crowd at the ROH are different I don't know. I will ask some friends who do go regularly to both ballet and opera if they notice any difference in the audience ....demographic is it called? So apologise myself for a bit of a rambling and slightly sarcastic post about class I should know better at my age. When I was younger I always sat in the cheapies .....even the upper slips ...or stood ...for 50 pence as it was then ....just to sometimes get a glimpse of my favourite artists etc These days I do prefer slightly better seats .....usually only front of Amphi though....so cannot afford to go as often as I'd like to. I really do hope Polunin sorts himself out as I do want to see him live but in something meaty!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 The opera audience is more international and more younger people go, but in general similar to the ballet audience. There's a fair bit of overlap with opera and ballet goers too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 As someone who goes to see opera as frequently as ballet, I'd add (and a friend said the same to me) that the ballet audience is much better dressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 As someone who goes to see opera as frequently as ballet, I'd add (and a friend said the same to me) that the ballet audience is much better dressed We scrub up well for Glyndebourne though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 The opera audience is more international and more younger people go, but in general similar to the ballet audience. There's a fair bit of overlap with opera and ballet goers too. That's really interesting. The audience at ROH Opera Rehearsals seems distinctly different from that at ballet ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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