Elmhurst figures & physical requirements

[Tulip]

As adults we may understand this, but really should that young boy have had to look at his mother to see that possibly he may inherit her genes. I am very slim and I felt uncomfortable for that woman, if size had not been mentioned I would not have even noticed that lady. It is now four years on and I have not forgotten how shocked I was when this was mentioned. Also by perhaps telling them it was not their fault that they did not get selected it was their parents is not in my oppinion a kind way to go about matters either. ( I know we are summising this is what she may have meant). Surely I am not the only one to feel shocke by this talk, perhaps I am hormonal sorry everyone.

[Anna C]

No, I was shocked the first time I heard about it too. :-((

[primrose]

That comment was also made at my dds audition and again during a parents consultation evening. If you dont mean it then dont say it. There was no laughter in the room when she said it to us parents, just parents looking around at each other.

[Pups_mum]

It does sound a bit insensitive. There's no getting away from the fact that physique is vital in ballet and that to a large degree that is determined by our genes. But this will be a difficult issue for some children, and indeed their parents, to come to terms with so I would think that trying to make a joke of it is a bit of a risky strategy. My DD is the wrong shape. Within the family we say that she has her dad to blame for her long body and me to blame for her short legs and she will jokily tell us off for passing on such lousy genes. I don't mind her doing that, it's just fun, but if someone else said it, without knowing how either she or we would react I wouldn't be impressed.

The message does need to be got across, but teens and pre teens are sensitive about their bodies generally, and dancing children probably more than average, so I think the subject needs to be handled very carefully

[taxi4ballet]

Couldn't agree more.

[Anjuli_Bai]

If one is a student and hears that kind of remark - I can see where one could feel kind of hopeless. It's all been decided before birth. So, why am I here?

 

As the parent, there might be a tendency toward some kind of guilt ...but the parent, too, is the recipient of genes from the previous generation. So, why are any of us here?

 

It's all a given - so why mention it?

 

From the teacher's point of view, yes, if the sole aim is produce dancers scripted from perfect material - the sewing is a lot easier.

 

From the audience point of view, it can be much more interesting in seeing how different bodies look performing rather than watching cookie cutter perfect bodies with a different face on top and even that is sometimes difficult to perceive.

 

Is it not the differences which makes dance interesting? Just today I was reading the review by Judith Makrell (Guardian) of the Kobborg and Cojocaru performance of La Fille - and she was celebrating the differences they brought to the ballet.

[Evie]

The issue with children dancing and the change in shape at puberty is a difficult one! Most of these dancing children start dancing as very young children, way before puberty kicks in!! What are we as parents to say when genetics dictate that a classical career or even a dance career looks like more of a dream than reality!! What happens if this child loves performing and dancing, it becomes a way of life and all your friends are dancing friends!!! It would take a brave mother indeed to put a stop to their childs dreams and ambitions! I dont know any mother that brave!

[Jellybeans]

Surely it is more kind, in the long run, for a parent to gently prepare a child that this may be a possible outcome (even likely, perhaps, in some cases) than it is for them to suddenly find themselves faced with constant rejection at audition or the threat of being assessed out if they are already in a school?

 

I think that parents and children alike need to face up to the fact that this is a very tough world!!

[Pups_mum]

I quite agree with jellybeans. I had some fairly frank discussions on the subject with my DD when she was about 9 or 10. Maybe I did spoil her dreams at an early age (some people certainly told me I did) but it doesn't seem to have taken away her enthusiasm for dancing - she's still at the studio 6 days a week and she's 14 now. She loves to perform and dance is still at the centre of her life, including her social life.

I totally agree that parents and teachers need to be realistic with children but I think they also need to stress the positives of continuing to dance even when a professional ballet career is not an option. There's more to dance than classical ballet and more to the danceworld than performing. Plus dance has so many benefits which will help numerous unrelated careers. I prefer to think that I helped change my DD's dreams rather than stopped them. Children who can't persue a classical career mustn't feel they are failures, which is why the discussions need to be done sensitively.

Someone once asked me why i hadn't considered trying a different hobby for my DD since she had failed at ballet. I was furious. I will never see someone who brings so much pleasure to herself and other people through her dancing as a failure.

[Tulip]

That is true Jellybeans, but these children that were auditioning were of a good physique. I have never heard anyone say at The Royal, Elmhurst, Hammond, Central or ENB that it is down to genetics in front of an audience of parents and children. Perhaps they just felt that it would be more professional to keep that fact to themselves. My husband laughed when I reminded him off this audition as I jockingly told him to breath in and duck down. Our daughter is 5ft 5 1/2inches, small framed and very slim, I am small and slim and my husband is 6ft and has a bit of a belly ha ha. I don't know who she took after. Clearly if a child is probably not going to be the right shape for classical dancing then ofcourse a parent should gently direct that child towards another form of dance.

[Jete]

Yes, I've heard about that. Just glad I haven't been in the room when Miss Rist has said it!

 

 

My DD was in one of this auditions and I was shocked to hear her saying that to me later, unfortunately I could not take her on that day, otherwise would have spoken to that woman.

 

Could not send her there.

[Karen]

I heard this talk too - it was also said 3 times in the same 10 minutes that a high arched foot was also a requirement. Dd does not have this and went into the audition knowing that she was not their ideal, which I'm sure did not promote her best performance. As expected, although offered a place, we were told she was not suitable for Funding audition. She has been awarded a MDS place elsewhere!

 

[Anna C]

And if you talk to a ballet physio, they will tell you that a high arched foot is not a requirement for a career in classical ballet. As long as the foot is flexible and strong enough, a nice strong but straighter foot is just as good - and less prone to injury, apparently.

 

My dd was really worried that she doesn't have particularly high arches - the physio says that she has lovely feet which are just like Agnes Oakes. :-)

[Jellybeans]

No, I would NEVER try and persuade a child to stop dancing! IT is more. About managing expectations of a school place and or career in any particular style.

 

If a child cannot take this then it is quite possible that they wouldn't survive in the dance world anyway!!

[primrose]

My mother is 5ft 4 inch, size 8, my father is 5ft 8inch, was slim up until he became an oap. His brothers range from his height to 6ft 2inch. My mothers sisters around about her height but her brothers all 6ft. I am 5ft 5 inch and size 8. My hubby 6ft and slimmish. My dd 5ft 7 inch. My son (rugby player) 5ft 9inch.

What I am getting at is that I dont think that you can always go by parents and grandparents heights and weights. Nutrition plays a big part in growth. We are much more educated than past generations in nutrition and our children are benefiting from it. Grandparents were probably children in the 2nd world war, and many of these children due to rationing had poor diets and did not always reach their full heights.

If a child wants to do any form of dance then let them. Children grow and change all the time. I have many friends who quite frankly are over weight, their children however are young adults and tiny. Many adults are bigger because they over eat. That does not mean that their children will choose to do the same thing.

If a child at audition shows the physical requirements at that time and all the other required factors then the schools can only go on that. If the childs physical shape changes and looks as though that will be the enventual shape then for me that is when the school should speak to the families in a dignified and compassionate way.

[aileen]

It's interesting how many dancers in the RB (a world-class company) have less than perfect physiques as far as the vocational schools in the UK are concerned! Many of the dancers I'm thinking about trained abroad and it makes you wonder how they managed to make it through their schools.

 

I was told by a teacher that the RBS look at the student's parents AND grandparents. I recollect that she said that they asked for statistics rather than photographs but maybe I misunderstood what she said.

[kiwimum]

I feel uncomfortable talking about the rights and wrongs of what is said at the audition when the person cannot defend what she has said. She is a very kind lady and a mother herself, so would be trying to ease potential disappointment for the children. I am more than cuddly so thankfully the physique thing is clearly not about what we are like now but about facility and potential. Trying to second guess this must be a nightmare....especially at Tring where there are so few funded places. I do not envy her the job. I did pull up straight when the comment was made at the first audition many years ago but there was laughter each time too....so I agree, that while trying to diffuse disappointment, it was also trying to lighten the mood. Nor is the decision ever fixed in tone: a girl who didn't get funding for yrs 7 and 8 got it for yr 8 which shows they have a set of criteria they look for.

[Anna C]

You're right Kiwimum, and I know many people are very happy with the school, the teaching, and quite rightly so. I do feel however that teachers and Directors of Dance need to be careful what they say, particularly where children are concerned. It may be that someone means something for the kindest of reasons, or to lighten the mood, or to help ease disappointment. But when it's something that may be misinterpreted as insensitive or even offensive, if it accidentally makes people uncomfortable, or puts someone off, then maybe it should be reconsidered.

 

Many parents and children have obviously heard that speech over the years and enough people have been concerned about it that perhaps it should be reconsidered. Kind motives behind it are obviously not quite evident enough, unfortunately.

 

I always remember Mr Kelly at Elmhurst and how lovely he is to children and parents auditioning. He pointed out how few places there are compared to people auditioning, but he said how well ALL the children had done and thanked us for taking the time and effort to bring them. He didn't need to say any more than that.

[tomuchtallent]

At end of the day you either have it or you dont regardless of how your parents are.

I find it very sad that this is a worry for everyone.

[lisadebs]

I am hoping for her own sake that my daughter is a genetic mutant!

 

Seriously though, I do wish there were more companies around like the Mark Morris Dance Group. Dancers of all shapes and sizes who move beautifully and are all the more interesting to watch because of their individuality.

 

No it's not a ballet company - but perhaps we need to educate our kids that there's a big wide dance world out there.

 

[taxi4ballet]

This was lovely to watch, and really expressive.

 

Re all the comments about inherited physique, I am guessing that height/weight may only be a part of the picture. Length of limbs in proportion to torso, hypermobility and shape of the bones at the hip joint all spring to mind.

[Anna C]

Absolutely, taxi4ballet. But these can be inherited from anyone in the family, not necessarily from parents. I'm extremely short sighted yet neither of my parents are. I also have an acute musical ear, yet neither of my parents do.

 

My sister-in-law is a redhead yet apparently that came from about 5 generations back! :-)

 

So children can have many traits not inherited from parents or even grandparents. Far better to thoroughly examine a child, screen, and watch, than to look at parents as that could be extremely misleading.

[taxi4ballet]

Very true Spanner, they'll be asking to see photos of cousins next!

[Janabiyah-Jane]

I agree spanner.... My children have very different physiques... I think one has taken after my grandmother (she died when I was young) so my mum says. The other I am really not sure about.

 

I am 5'9" and my 17 year old is 5'4" and the 14 year old 5'1" and luckily both have much smaller feet than me (I'm a size 8!)

They are not their dads build either...

 

You just can't tell looking at parents or grandparents... Genes can skip countless generations..

[taxi4ballet]

Off-topic slightly, but I can't help wondering about right- and left-handedness and whether it has any impact on training.

 

It would be interesting to find out, as my dd is fairly ambidextrous in most things, but finds it much easier to do some exercises one way rather than the other.

 

Perhaps this might be one for Anjuli to answer...

[JulieW]

Off-topic slightly, but I can't help wondering about right- and left-handedness and whether it has any impact on training.

 

It would be interesting to find out, as my dd is fairly ambidextrous in most things, but finds it much easier to do some exercises one way rather than the other.

 

Perhaps this might be one for Anjuli to answer...

 

Why don't you start another thread and ask the question - it'll get lost in here, as this was originally about Elmhurst's requirements

[taxi4ballet]

Will do.

[sophika9899]

I also agree with spannerandpony. I have practically flat turnout which I don't need and my DD struggles with hers. Go figure.

[taxi4ballet]

Sorry about this - I come from a horsey background

 

The racehorse Red Rum was bred specifically as a flat racing horse from parentage known for high speed over short distances.

He was plagued with leg trouble as a youngster, and was small and fine-boned, with hooves like teacups. To look at him, he was totally unsuited to slogging his way for miles through deep mud and over jumps bigger than he was.

 

He turned out to be one of the greatest steeplechasers of all time.

 

BTW I steered DD towards ballet rather than riding as I thought it would be cheaper!

[Stirrups36]

QUOTE: BTW I steered DD towards ballet rather than riding as I thought it would be cheaper!

 

ha...ha ha ha...ha ha ha haha (Stage directions - reader of blog rolls on floor gibbering, grasping bank statements in both hand):

 

should get back to the post though before I get moderated out.

 

I think it just shows that until they stop growing, we can never tell. In the meantime, we are going to enjoy every minute of their journey.

[Jellybeans]

I think that we need to step back a bit and look at the facts!! My child has reached final auditions at all four schools. each application form asked for the height of both parents. I know someone who did not know the height of her child's father and was told that this did not matter. No school stipulated that both parents had to accompany the children to the auditions - in fact, one asked that only one parent went along. In fact, no school said that even one parent had to go, so there is no way that any of the schools make their decision based on what parents, grandparents or any other relatives look like.

 

I still don't have a problem with the comment that is made at auditions at one particular school!!

[Jellybeans]

It's interesting how many dancers in the RB (a world-class company) have less than perfect physiques as far as the vocational schools in the UK are concerned! Many of the dancers I'm thinking about trained abroad and it makes you wonder how they managed to make it through their schools.

 

I was told by a teacher that the RBS look at the student's parents AND grandparents. I recollect that she said that they asked for statistics rather than photographs but maybe I misunderstood what she said.

 

To be honest, there are a range of physiques at the schools as well - honestly!! Whilst they may all have the required characteristics to a greater or lesser extent, they really are not the clones that people imagine. I think very few people fit the mould of perfect!! And RBS do NOT look at grandparents!!!

[Tulip]

Slightly off topic. Yes the dance teachers at Tring who teach my daughter are wonderful, my comment was purely regarding comments made at our audition regarding parental genes.