FelixGirl Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I agree CouldDoBetter but I think it's a tough call for the colleges (I'm talking MT college here because I don't have experience of classical schools). They are judged (by prospective students and parents, agents, casting directors etc) on the quality of the show that they produce…….the aim is to be the best, and to put on a professional show worthy of the West End. The students they pick have to be 100% reliable…they can't afford just to give someone a chance if they're not up to the job. I can't help thinking, though, that part of the reason the same names come up again and again is that once they've been used and proved themselves it's easier for the staff to use the same person again than to give someone unproven a chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 As FelixGirl says the shows are the vehicle the schools use to show the outside world the quality and standard of their dancers and they shows are seen by parents of existing and prospective parents, agents, casting directors etc. I don't think the issue for me would be that some do more than others in the shows as casting does reflect the real world and there can be all sorts of reasons for who is chosen. To me the real problem is the lack of organisation when there is more than one cast. I find it ridiculous that parents would have to get tickets for multiple performances in order to see their child perform and that you have to buy tickets before casts are known - even if parts are not known within each cast, surely there are enough talented individuals that they can be divided into casts at the outset. What about grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends who might want to see someone perform - they are surely wanting to support the person they know rather than the school/college itself? To me it seems like the importance is more on the commercial 'sell as many tickets as possible' than on the end of year performance as a showcase of students work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I fully agree with the points made and certainly think that vocational school students should ALL be given a role, be it soloist or corps de ballet, in end of year showcases - their performing skills must be nurtured. Parents should also be advised re swapping tickets etc if casting cannot be finalized for every performance prior to tickets going on sale. The sad truth of the performing arts world, however, is that it will never be entirely fair - the most talented and reliable dancers will always get the lion's share of the work and it is indeed then a self-perpetuating cycle in that those who have shown that they are talented and reliable in their first contracts will be far more likely to be offered further contracts because they are a known quantity. Just as the children of performers are far more likely to have a performing career simply because they are known to directors/performers because of their parent/s and are far more likely to be given a chance to audition for something. And yes, they will then say that if they weren't talented they wouldn't continue to get work, but how many equally if not more talented performers will never get a chance to show what they can do because they aren't a known quantity and don't have the contacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Take the points about the fact that life is unfair in the real world and people compete for contracts/roles etc. However, these students are still at school where they are paying a lot of money to be taught and that includes performing opportunities, which should be shared out. If they are not involved in rehearsals and not doing other classes instead, they are potentially not learning anything for a third of the time that they are at school. Also, as someone pointed out earlier, the favourites in the school do not always get the best contracts as it is often subjective, so everybody should be given a chance in front of an audience. Parents and their families and friends should not have to scrabble around buying extra tickets or swapping them just to see their children perform when they are paying a lot of money for their children to be taught and that includes performing opportunities. These schools need to get up to speed with the 21st century. Half of them will go bankrupt when the funding runs out. It's happening all over the private school sector at the moment, including long-established, highly esteemed schools which just can't find a way of remaining financially viable despite big marketing campaigns to attract new students etc. As someone who has auditioned at a range of dance schools, it is very noticeable that the ones with the least government funding are the best at engaging with parents/customers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancemad Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 If the course results in the awarding of the Trinity qualification then ALL second and third years have to appear in the production. All second years have to be identified and the work should be distributed fairly equally across the year group. The same applies to the third year and they are also formally assessed within, and marked on, the performance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Absolutely Ribbons and that is why I said that every student should have a role and participate in the show, it's vital for performers to perform. If DD wanted to pursue the 16+ vocational training route I would urge her to put the schools with a lot of performance opportunities beyond the end of year show at the top of her wish list, so the end of year show isn't so all-important re performance opportunities. However every student should be included in the end of year show, without fail. Not every student can have a starring role though, despite the fact that they are all paying for their training. I also agreed that parents shouldn't have to scrabble for tickets - there should at the very least be advice and assistance given with swapping tickets etc if casting for every performance really can't be finalized prior to tickets going on sale. I stand by my comment that performance opportunities will never be shared out equally. Some choreographers and teachers will prefer some students - they may not necessarily be the most successful after vocational school, but they are in a favored position within it. And of course some students are more talented and better performers than others, albeit that they have all been through the audition process - and/or are a better fit for the pieces chosen for the show. You are right that schools need to wake up and enter the 21st century - but maybe prospective students and their parents need to ask more questions before they part with a lot of money (with absolutely no guarantees as we know) and entrust the school with their DCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Maybe all parents should hold off booking tickets until cast lists are published. I do agree though that how the casting for the shows is handled can be very demoralising. As always vocational staff seem to forget they are dealing with children and young adults. Their excuses that this is what company life is like isn't really relevant to a 11/12/13 etc year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Professional companies announce their castings months in advance so the paying public can choose which performers they wish to see and book tickets accordingly. Surely it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of the vocational schools to at least reserve blocks of tickets in advance, to be sold to parents once the castings are known (with priority being given to the parents of those who are not performing in all the shows). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 At dd school they do release tickets to parents, then a week later Friends of the school. The casting was announced just after parents tickets released for sale and before open to Friends. There are limits on number of tickets bookable as a parent and a friend. A block is reserved for the Saturday matinee for next years new starters and parents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double trouble Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Just got back from Central show really enjoyed it , very versatile dancers did notice that some students were in lot more than others but perhaps other nights they change it around ? Tulip was your DD in it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I know that the parents of the 'Benjis' in the recent Priscilla tour didn't get told which dates their child was doing until very late on but with only 2 or 3 children swopping was easier. In think most of the posts have been about post 16 students not 11/12/13 year olds but even so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 A lot of the problems re raising this issue with the schools, or asking before you go always comes down to the simple fact that there are so many people competing for places that "if you don't like it, someone else will". This breeds a culture of fear in pupils and parents, and means the schools can effectively get away with what they like, within the boundaries of the law! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hi double trouble no my daughter has another year to go, so she wasn't in ballet central. As I said earlier though on this topic, for central all student will be in at least one piece. However it is the worst time of year, because they just don't know for sure if they are going to be in what piece. I'm not moaning, I'm just saying that is just the way it is. It does however make the students by second year stronger. Oh and it's not the same girls or boys all the time , because some are more classical and others are more contemporary. As for jazz some are brilliant and others are average. Good luck to anyone who wants to confront a school though, far braver than I would ever be, on top of that my daughter would kill me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I don't think that the analogy with company life is appropriate. In a company you are doing a job for which you are being paid. In a school you are being trained and if you are sitting around not learning anything whilst others are rehearsing for weeks then you are not receiving the training which you are supposed to be getting. Whether you pay or get your training for free is not really the point, but when you do pay, as the majority of students (or their parents) do it certainly makes you look at what you are getting for your money. We're beginning to see this with university students, especially since the fees went up to £9K, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I totally agree that whilst you are talking about children and students still in training, everyone should be doing something - in classes if not in rehearsals. That is the case for DD. She is on a course leading to a Trinity diploma so that is probably one reason everyone gets good performance time. Inevitably she has some sitting around time when they do a full run through of the ballet but it is made quite clear to the students that they should be learning through watching and be able to step into a role if needed. And of course she is dancing in the rehearsal also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelixGirl Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 In DD's case too….there is no sitting around, if not rehearsing they are in class, and everyone she knows seems to be in at least 4 pieces. Also, we haven't had to buy tickets yet….so we do have a better chance of finding out which performances DD will be doing! Just going back to assessments……I don't think the students are assessed on this show, but they have other smaller performances throughout the year that are assessed. We were looking at the whole 'value for money' thing last week following all the discussions about the number of contact hours at university…..DD worked out that she has in excess of 35 hours of contact teaching time per week…..that seems like incredible value for money when considered against the pitiful few that some university courses offer!! I know university students are supposed to study for themselves….but if that's the case, what's the money for? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Very good point FelixGirl. I have no personal experience of anyone undertaking dance training but I do have experience of someone starting a university course - 3 full days a week, each day with a different tutor. After the first 2 weeks one of the tutors badly hurt his back and did not return to Easter. Contact was via email! I think this was absolutely appalling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I agree that watching rehearsals - or classes, eg if injured - should always be regarded as an opportunity to learn via watching. It is not simply watching but observing with an educated eye. DD's non-vocational school has always stressed this and encourages injured dancers to watch classes, even from being very young, so certainly vocational students of 16+ should be well aware of this. And they will all be watching some parts of some rehearsals simply because they are not all on stage for the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 So, if your DC was at vocational school and not dancing in anything but just watching the rehearsals you would be quite happy with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double trouble Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Tulip I will definitly watch Central next yr . The end dance was so good and different to any other shows we have seen. We did notice that some were in classical and others contempory but we enjoyed all of it and worth going to see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadielou Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Think performance is an essential part of our kids training and wish there was more of it. Very sad that for the last three years, all we get to see our year group perform is Character, Irish and Scottish, all very nice but would be nice to see them in a ballet piece, as that is after all what they went to vocational school to study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CouldDoBetter Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Think performance is an essential part of our kids training and wish there was more of it. Very sad that for the last three years, all we get to see our year group perform is Character, Irish and Scottish, all very nice but would be nice to see them in a ballet piece, as that is after all what they went to vocational school to study. Sadielou, One thing that I never envisaged when my DD went to vocational school was that the amount of times I would get to see her perform would be so few - and in particular doing ballet. I do envy some of the parents of children who did not go away the number of opportunities they get to see their DC perform. If fact I have seen more of their children dancing than my own! I am sure that the schools could do more "closed" performances to give children those opportunities without the school having to worry about its external image. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Admittedly I've had to miss some events through work but so far in Year 7 dd has performed at an open day, parents evening (closed performance for yr 7 parents) & will be in a section of the ballet, tap & a modern dance in the end of year show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadielou Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Totally agree CouldDoBetter. I know it is a terrible thing to say (when they have been given such a great opportunity) but the kids are bored of doing the same old thing, they should be really excited at this time of year with performances looming, but instead they are all beginning to think that they are not good enough to do any ballet and have become resigned to the "we are only doing character" scenario. As parents, although of course we are desperate to see our children perform, we are also slightly fed up with it too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double trouble Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I think all DC should be in something they must all be good at dancing because otherwise they wouldn't be at V sch. When my DD were at LRBS the full time students were in the show some more than others because they were the best but at least your DC would be In it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I agree that watching rehearsals - or classes, eg if injured - should always be regarded as an opportunity to learn via watching. It is not simply watching but observing with an educated eye. DD's non-vocational school has always stressed this and encourages injured dancers to watch classes, even from being very young, so certainly vocational students of 16+ should be well aware of this. And they will all be watching some parts of some rehearsals simply because they are not all on stage for the entire time. Agree that you can learn through watching but it is limited and seriously, there is only so much sitting and watching you can do and several hours a day for 6 or 7 weeks is excessive!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I don't think that the analogy with company life is appropriate. In a company you are doing a job for which you are being paid. In a school you are being trained and if you are sitting around not learning anything whilst others are rehearsing for weeks then you are not receiving the training which you are supposed to be getting. Whether you pay or get your training for free is not really the point, but when you do pay, as the majority of students (or their parents) do it certainly makes you look at what you are getting for your money. We're beginning to see this with university students, especially since the fees went up to £9K, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. My mention of companies was really only with regard to the purchasing of tickets - they will issue cast lists well in advance of time so everyone can find out which cast will be performing and when. Tickets can then be purchased for the correct performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Totally agree Ribbons - I was certainly not advocating sitting watching for several hours a day for weeks on end - just pointing out that some watching will be inevitable, especially closer to the performance. At DDs school they perform either a short 1 act ballet or just one act from a longer ballet - as just one part of the overall end of year performance and obviously they are not on stage all the time so are watching - and they still have plenty of dancing to do and classes when not in rehearsal. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 AIleen, I certainly haven't said that I think it would be ok for vocational school students just to sit and watch rehearsals and not to be involved in end of year performances. I have said more than once that every student should be performing in the end of year show albeit that some will inevitably perform more than others. However, watching rehearsals can be very useful and will be inevitable especially, as 2dancersmum says, as the performance dates approach. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BankrollingBallet Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 My DC is currently on the Ballet Central tour. Whilst I can't say the casting is equitable, every student does perform in something as Tabitha says but not every student performs in every show. There seems to be a core company that has been rearranged and added to on occasion to accommodate things like leavers, injuries, auditions and on one occasion that I'm aware of to accommodate a dancer with parents coming to the show. Some students dance in multiple pieces throughout the tour but the main parts and solos seem to be shared. I'm sure it's great that more of the students get the opportunity but it has been great for me, as over several shows I've seen a variety of dancers in different pieces. They all bring something slightly different to the same choreography. I'm obviously biased but it really is a varied and entertaining show. If my memory of first and second year shows serves, casting was far more static. That might be because there was less scope for 'external' selection. This year several great choreographers have come in to work with the students and I feel that's opened the field in terms of casting. This year has showcased several dancers who haven't been featured before. It might also be that over the three year training course, many have improved and caught up. As to whether not being well cast prepares students for company life - maybe but I personally find that a stretch to believe when the dancers are barely out of primary school. Even at 18 & 19 I'm not convinced because for the vast majority the biggest post-training hurdle is to get into a company in the first place. It's clearly important to keep their feet on the ground and be realistic about their chances but it seems to me that confidence in their ability to perform as well as their technical ability might help them through the daunting auditions and inevitable knock backs they're heading for. It's a difficult balance to achieve and I'd guess a different one for every young dancer. Who'd be a ballet parent eh? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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