Vocational schools in the USA

[dancemad]

Invisible Circus

 

 

 

The costs listed at Hamburg, Stuttgart, POB etc are for nationals. To say you're "Sure" there's financial assistance doesn't mean it's true, in fact from what I know about British dancers studying abroad which is actually quite a lot, the one big problem they all faced was money. It's as expensive to study in one of the big European ballet schools, if not a lot more so than it is to study here.

 

And that brings me to another point if someone doesn't have the technique or talent to get accepted at one of the top schools in the UK they won't be accepted at one of the European schools either.

 

And why would you want a British kid to go into a foreign school system at 14/15? Not only will she be studying a completely different curriculum but also in a language she doesn't understand.

Stuttgart and Dutch National Ballet Academy certainly offer funding to some UK students. At both schools there are so many students of different nationalities that teachers converse in many different languages.

European & US schools are also not as set on one particular body type or height so for some students it is a good option.

Edited May 18, 2014 by dancemad

[rowan]

BD19, I think Invisible Circus is only trying to be helpful. And there are children in Britain who can join European ballet schools because they are already fluent in the language through being bilingual or having joint nationality and who have family in the relevant country.  I know ballet students who have done just this.

 

However, I think your point still stands about the US schools. The US population is five times that of the UK and it has a huge pool of young dancers to choose from for its schools - many US schools are world class and competition for a place is fierce. Trying out for an American summer school would be a good way of seeing what the school was like, and, in fact, is often compulsory before a vocational place would be offered. The summer schools are expensive (unless you're offered a scholarship) - a bit of a moneyspinner for the institutions, I think - and the classes can be crowded.

[Kitschqueen_1]

My dd's situation is slightly different as it is contemporary dance she wants to pursue and she will be 18 when she goes to study full time.

 

She certainly does have the technique and talent to get into a Consevatoire in the UK but she absolutely loves the French language so she will also be auditioning for P.A.R.T.S in Belgium. She is studying French at A level but my understanding is that most of the classes are conducted in English anyway as they take students from all over the world.

What better way to learn a foreign language than by living in the country and being immersed in that culture.

 

The costs of training are a lot less than the UK, €12,000 for the three years training as opposed to the £27,000 she would have to borrow with a student loan. They have small bursaries but I understand that the financial burden will primarily be mine and her father's.

Having put an older child through university I know that even with loans, I paid for her accommodation and gave her a monthly allowance for the three years she was there. There is no cheap way of accessing further education for our children whatever it is!

 

Sorry mods for hijacking the post somewhat but I think every young person is different, every family situation is different and if someone wants to explore different opportunities then they have the right to do so.

 

I did not become a member of this forum to judge and criticise others nor do I expect to be judged and criticised. Most people have so much more experience than I do and it is their opinions that I seek and value.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

The world is getting smaller.

 

Studying abroad is becoming more if a viable & accepted option for students in all subjects, not just performing so why shouldn't European schools be considered.

 

Besides although admittedly this is Balletco, this forum is called Doing Dance, not doing Ballet at RBS.

 

There are so many vocational routes, I'm a bit fed up of the snobbery that if someone doesn't have the technique or talent to get accepted at one of the top schools in the UK they won't be accepted at one of the European schools either.

 

Suppose someone doesn't want to study there. Sometimes a young person may be happier in an environment with a different ethos. Only this week a forum member stated her child had left a top school because it wasn't for them but is happily settling into another one. The child had the talent, it just wasn't for them.

[Anna C]

Invisible Circus

 

This is why a little information is bad information. Which European schools? I know UK dancers who trained at the Bolshoi, the costs for a foreigner were around £50k + a year and there was no financial assistance, not even from the UK.

 

The costs listed at Hamburg, Stuttgart, POB etc are for nationals. To say you're "Sure" there's financial assistance doesn't mean it's true, in fact from what I know about British dancers studying abroad which is actually quite a lot, the one big problem they all faced was money. It's as expensive to study in one of the big European ballet schools, if not a lot more so than it is to study here.

 

And that brings me to another point if someone doesn't have the technique or talent to get accepted at one of the top schools in the UK they won't be accepted at one of the European schools either.

 

And why would you want a British kid to go into a foreign school system at 14/15? Not only will she be studying a completely different curriculum but also in a language she doesn't understand.

Well again, that's not our decision BD19. Invisiblecircus is a new member and we don't want to put him/her off posting. I understand that you are highly experienced, which is wonderful, but could I ask you to post a little less bluntly?

 

We very much appreciate your advice and experience, and please do keep posting; but perhaps a little less cross and judgemental sounding. I'm sure you don't mean to sound so impatient with other posters.

 

Thank you. :-)

[Picturesinthefirelight]

"Which European schools? I know UK dancers who trained at the Bolshoi, the costs for a foreigner were around £50k + a year and there was no financial assistance, not even from the UK."

 

Last time I looked Russia was not part of the EU.

[victoriapage]

With the right information OP can make the right decision. I will grant that New York schools are going to be much more expensive not only in their tuition rates but also because with them comes the cost of living in New York, which of course is inordinately high. Getting accepted would be wonderful; paying for the costs comes next. The OP will be able to judge what their budget can afford. I remember, for instance, a pair of sisters who entered PCS at the same time when moving to New York to study at SAB. One had an SAB scholarship and the other didn't. I seem to recall that the fees for the two at PCS at the time (22 years ago!) were over 25 thousand dollars a year! Then! Their father was a doctor and paid for his wife  and the children to move to New York, tuition at SAB, tuition at PCS, an apartment, living expenses (they were 10 and 12 years old), not to mention pointe shoes(!) and maintained his own home in their state. I shudder to think.

 

But if OP and family were to be moving here, then they would be looking near where they were headed to see what the best offerings were in their area, and thankfully most larger cities have good schools.  So with the information they get here, I hope the decision will be a little easier.

[aileen]

It is my understanding that some European school are cheaper than the UK schools and that, as EU nationals, UK students would pay the same fees as the school's 'home students'. I do agree with BD19's point that we shouldn't run away with the idea that the European schools are easy to get into either.

[Guest BD19]

I'm sorry if you think I'm being too blunt. I don't know the OPs daughter or anyone's kid, I'm not criticising them as dancers I don't know their level of technique or talent.

 

I spend all my time with people who went to the "top" international dance schools and one thing I do know and I'm not saying this to get at anyone here, the same demands for entry in terms of body shape, facility and aptitude for ballet training hold wherever you go. Be it London, New York, Moscow, St Petersburg, Hamburg, Paris - in fact I have to say they're even stricter in Paris, Russia than they are here. Because they have far more choice of potential students.

 

It's not easy wherever you go. And also different countries have different things they're famous for, that Latin American ability to turn? I'm a very good right turner, I live in fear of having to turn left - I have a lot of friends from Cuba, Brazil who can spin like tops every which way. When I asked if everyone from the school is equally talented they say no, there are a lot of casualties, a lot of people don't make it or respond to the training. BUT they come from countries where ballet is seen as a way out, where going to a ballet school doesn't cost an arm and a leg and instead of a hundred or so boys a year to choose from the school has a choice of hundreds and hundreds.

 

I would never dream of telling anyone "don't do this" I totally get the poster who took her son out of RBS, it's a tough place it has it's own way of doing everything and that's not right for everyone. Melissa and Rupert were both turned down by RBS or in Rupert's case assessed out but then got back in. There are lots of ways.

 

But I'm just saying if your dream is to go to one of the top UK schools and for whatever reason it doesn't happen and you're looking to America or Europe, please, it's just as hard, if not harder for all those other reasons. And then when the training's over you have the headache of trying to get a contract but that's a whole other story altogether.

[Lucinda]

Many of the German ballet schools have free tuition regardless of the nationality of the student. If fees are charged they are considerably lower for international students in comparison to UK international tuition fees. The tuition fees for the Dutch National Ballet Academy are just under 2 000 euros per annum for European students and slightly more for non Europeans.

The cost of living in European cities varies but is usually less than the cost of living in London. 

In addition, in many of the top European ballet schools outside the UK the main language of instruction is English as there are so many international students. 

[Guest BD19]

But Lucinda RBS is fees assisted, many other schools give students of exceptional talent bursaries, assistance or totally pay off their fees.

 

What I'm saying is that what I don't agree with is this notion that standards and ease of acceptance is easier abroad than it is in the UK. Especially pre 16. If a kid is going to struggle or fail to gain entry to RBS, then they're going to have the same issues at SAB, POB, Bolshoi, Mariinsky, Het national, Stuttgart, Hamburg. Just because you go abroad it doesn't mean it's easier, in fact given the size of those countries and the countries where doing ballet is much more a part of the culture it's a lot lot harder.

 

A ballet physique is a ballet physique and the same way you're judged and assessed to get into White Lodge is the same for any top school affiliated with a company.

[Guest BD19]

Picturesinthefirelight

 

You know what I meant the Bolshoi and Mariinsky schools are taking an increasing number of European students and are rated as two of the best schools in the world.

 

If your kid doesn't have what it takes to make it here they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Moscow or St Petersburg. Just saying.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

No, I didn't know what you meant.

 

Someone suggested European schools due to funding issues & you started talking about Russia. I was confused.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Say for example I started asking about schools in Europe.

 

Others may not know that dh is regularly asked to work in Holland & has lots of contacts there also contacts in Sweden. (For the record we have no plans to move there).

 

EU students come to the UK to study, why shouldn't it be the other way round?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

"If your kid doesn't have what it takes to make it here they sure as hell don't stand a chance in Moscow or St Petersburg. Just saying."

 

Not my place to give out info on others children but there is a poster whose child certainly proved that wrong with regards to UK & Russian schools.

[Its her Life]

A good forum member to comment on this would be CeliB as her ds has been training at the Kirov in Washingto since he was 14.

[rowan]

I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested that they think that "standards and ease of acceptance is easier abroad than it is in the UK".

 

People are interested in studying abroad for all sorts of reasons, some of which have been mentioned on this thread, and they'd like to know how to go about it.

[Guest BD19]

I give up. I'm out.

[Anna C]

Actually even in the UK different schools look for different things. Some schools insist on short torso, other schools are less concerned with body length as long as a student has long legs. One Director apparently cites hyper-arched feet as a pre-requisite for funding; other schools may prefer to look at a student's dance ability and overall facility regardless of hypermobile feet. Long may this diversity continue because when you get to Company level in the UK the dancers are not clones of each other.

 

So if many our UK schools are looking for different qualities, that explains why some students get offers at RBS but not Elmhurst, Elmhurst but not Central, Central but not ENBS, and so on. It stands to reason then that a student may get no offers here but may be just what a Russian, American or German school might love.

 

But essentially if parents here want information about schools abroad, the reason why they want to know is their business and not for us to judge, no matter whether we agree or disagree.

[Anna C]

I give up. I'm out.

BD19, there is no reason to leave. I've already said how valuable your experiences are. All we are asking is that you be a little bit less judgemental and impatient with other posters. We ask all members to be respectful of other posters as part of our forum rules.

[swanprincess]

With regards to vocational schools in the USA, I'm just wondering... 6th form schools in the UK such as ENB, Central etc, I have heard take 18 year olds into first year. Is it unheard of for a 17/18 year old to be accepted into an American vocational school for the last 2-3 years of training, having not previously trained vocationally?? (Hope this isn't deviating too much from the original post!!)

[sarahw]

Spannerandpony

 

I agree. I find it embarrassing that a new member has been put in this position

[sarahw]

Also should add please stay Dancermum!

[2dancersmum]

I think it perhaps should be remembered that BD19 is also a relative newcomer to this forum. And I don't recall Dancermum expressing any intentions of sending her DC abroad to train - I thought it was just a general question with one of the key points being 'if' for the whole scenario.  I hope neither of them are put off posting in future from the turn this thread took. 

[Stirrups36]

I give up. I'm out.

Don't give up, yours is a valuable point of view. And one I nor many others can give.

[rowan]

I would hope no-one would feel they could not take part in this forum, including BD19, who I suspect might be a much younger forum member than I had realised. It is always interesting to read others' points of view, even if we disagree!

 

 

With regards to vocational schools in the USA, I'm just wondering... 6th form schools in the UK such as ENB, Central etc, I have heard take 18 year olds into first year. Is it unheard of for a 17/18 year old to be accepted into an American vocational school for the last 2-3 years of training, having not previously trained vocationally?? (Hope this isn't deviating too much from the original post!!)

 

To be honest, I've never heard of ENB school etc taking an 18-year-old into their first year, not a girl at least. (Is this true?) I think the same will be true for the US vocational schools as well, unless you had had top-notch intensive training for years beforehand. However, I think there are lots of American universities and colleges at which you can study ballet as a major - lots more than in the UK - and you can go at 18.

[Anna C]

I hope *nobody* leaves the forum.

 

However, forum rules - to which we all agree when we join - state that members should be respectful to each other. If that includes agreeing to disagree, then so be it.

[Dancermum]

I feel like I've started something that has spiralled out of control... many varying opinions on it all.

 

The only reason for the question, as I previously said, was the limited number of places in the UK for year 9/10 entry. Although being a parent I obviously think my DD is brilliant, I am realistic enough to know, with only 4 schools on offer, places outside year 7 entry are few and far between so the chances of getting one are minimal. I just wondered perhaps with the US having the junior/middle/high school system if there were more opportunities at this age than over here. But it interesting to hear that it's even more competitive than here.

And no, not made of money (sadly) so probably not ever going to happen... I was just being curious and trying to weigh up all the options out there.

 

All that being said thank you for the replies... but I might just go back to being a silent reader of the forum for a while! :-)

[Anna C]

You are perfectly entitled to ask questions, Dancermum. As in any community there will be people who agree and people who don't. :-)

[Ellie]

Dancermum, as a parent I personally think it is really important to explore any and every avenue that may, or even may not be open to our DC's. Your girl is lucky to have a mum who shows such an interest in her education. x

[afab]

Just to answer about France to people who don't know, top state schools i.e. POB, CNSM are free for students accepted in the school whatever their nationality (at least EU students). One only pays for boarding. Trainees at POB though have to pay fees but they are not technically students of the school...

[victoriapage]

I may be wrong but it is my strong impression that in the US, a student who wants to dance is usually pretty anxious if they don't have a job by age 17 or 18 and doesn't generally consider college as a springboard to a performing career.

 

And I must add my voice to say that everyone has a right to an opinion, "newbies" should stick around!

[LinMM]

Afab what is the difference between a student at POB and a trainee at POB......sorry for my ignorance.

 

 

I hope CeliB won't mind me saying but having seen her son in class on a few occasions I have to say he is an extremely talented and exceptional young dancer and so I believe is on a scholarship at the school he has chosen in the US for its particular style of training.

 

I don't know CeliB personally I might add .....have just been in the same class taught by of his original teachers on occasions.....so this is an entirely independent observation on this young dancer.

 

I have no idea whether he applied to any UK schools but if he did and they turned him down this to me just proves the schools are looking for different things and therefore being turned down by one school doesn't mean you are not good enough for another.

 

However I do agree with BD19 that it is extremely difficult to get into ANY of the top schools whether in UK Europe or USA.

These schools may in fact be looking for slightly different things but you still have to have something special in one way or another to be invited to join.

 

There are a few exceptions to every general rule however!!