Professional ballet training - Age 16 or 18?

[Sharry01]

My DD wants to be a professional ballerina.  She has been attending classes since age 6, been a Royal Ballet Junior Associate and attended a vocational dance school (when she was 13).  Though she couldn't get used to the boarding (and is now back home) she still wants to pursue this path.  However not sure to let her try again at 16 or wait until she is 18.

 

ENBS, Central School of Ballet, Rambert, Royal Ballet Upper School all offer vocational training at age 16 and I always thought this was the best path if you wanted to try and get into a professional ballet company.  However, I have noticed that London Studio Centre (for example) offer a BA in Classical Ballet (or you can choose musical theatre) which starts at age 18, along with other providers - this course looks fantastic.  You would then be aged 21 when you completed this.  Surely, if this was too old to then apply to a company, why would they offer this course?   Of is it that the majority who do a degree in dance then go onto teach dance rather than perform?

 

Just really wanting to know if you really have to go at 16 or if my DD could wait until 18 and still pursue her dream (and then not be too old to try and join a company)?

 

Thank you for your help.

 

 

[Sim]

Hi Sharry.....I've moved this topic to Doing Dance as it's more appropriate for this area of the site....and you should get a lot of help here as well!

 

Best wishes,

Sim

[Thecatsmother]

For ballet I would say 16 for full time training in terms of best chances of a job post graduation. I think musical theatre can be a bit more flexible. It may be that some students at studio centre enter the course from other full time training for performing experience or to obtain a degree.

 

There will always be exceptions to this rule but most have been coached intensively on a private basis. Summer intensives will augment any training.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Generally speaking, I think that entering the stream toward a goal of dancing professionally in a ballet company at age 18 is a bit late.  Most ballet students with the aim of dancing professionally in a major company, are so scheduled up just with their dance training, there is no time for a college degree.  Many pursue a degree after dancing professionally - or sometimes are able to enroll in a college program that allows for them to study individually rather than sit in a college classroom.  I don't know about in the UK - but in the United States there are such programs often arranged by the company for its dancers.

 

However, some of the above depends upon what level of professional goals the student has.  If the goal is to join a major ballet company - that training takes priority over anything else.  If she waits until she is 18, she will find herself competing (auditioning) against younger aspirants who have more concentrated training.  But, if the goal is to join a company that is not a major company then her chances are better.

 

Being in the stream of  associate progrrams and auditioning gets the student "seen."  

 

Unfortunately, most of the time the student needs to make a choice between a goal of competing for employment with a professional company or a pursuit of a degree in higher education.  

 

A degree in dance will certainly aid the student if the goal is to teach - but then a resumé which includes a history of performing is a huge advantage.  That is why many times the degree is pursued after retiring from active performing.  A degree in dance can also lead to other avenues in addition to teaching.

 

Since my "world" is ballet - I can't tell you how this works out in musical theater or other dance forms.

[Pas de Quatre]

If her aim is classical ballet then Vocational school at 16 is a better bet, although ENB has said they do like 17 year olds too and I know someone who is 18 who has has just started in Year 1.  However, for musical theatre and contemporary going at 18 is fine, and many of these courses do not take them at 16 anyway.

 

Being realistic, you should check out the Graduate destination threads - only the top handful of dancers at the top schools actually manage to find classical jobs these days. 

[Julie 2 Milner]

Yes 16 really for Classical. As said there are exceptions but few and far between. Rambert is  slightly different I think they do take 18 but in itself it is a slightly different route from " straight classical". Sorry if that is a strange way to describe it. Contemporary older is an advantage. Good luck.xx

[Sharry01]

Thank you for your comments.  I did think this may be the case (ie: going at age 16) but was just abit thrown by London Studio Centre's Classical ballet course which starts at 18.  I will read any other comments with interest. x

[Dance*is*life]

I too would say 16 for ballet.  Those final two or three years of full-time training are vital in order to transform a promising student into a candidate ready to turn pro. There are also so many extras that they get at vocational school, which they cannot get in a local ballet school - pas de deux for one.  It is a combination of quality and quantity which completes the training and it needs to be done when they are young enough to benefit from it.  Competition is fierce - nobody's waiting for you - your daughter should be trying to get an apprenticeship at 18, not starting intensive training then.

[JulieW]

I must say I've never seen graduate news from LSC - might email them - ENBS replied to my email eventually. Would be interesting to see what's happening to their ballet dancers. I know one young lady who has recently left there (think she was in the contemporary route) - she might be able to fill me in.

 

I agree that if your daughter's dream is to be a classical dancer, she needs to try at 16, maybe again at 17 and if she has no luck with classical schools she may like to try a slightly different dance career path at 18.

[Pas de Quatre]

To be honest I don't know of any graduates of London Studio Centre getting purely classical jobs.  DD's friend who went there is currently in Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake. 

[Ellie]

LSC used to be known (I'm going back to the early '90's) for a really thorough all round dance education (post 16) with good graduate success .  Do they not accept students at 16 anymore ? I think my niece (then 17) auditioned last year, but opted for Rambert instead. The LSC teaching staff look excellent though, so I'd say it's certainly one to consider. 

[LinMM]

I know a couple of graduates from this school who are now both teaching. One though is also successfully running an adult amateur ballet company.

[Pas de Quatre]

The last intake of 16 year olds was September 2009.  Ever since it has been 18.

[LinMM]

Should have added that tend to agree with 16 for ballet though I do know people from must admit 20plus years ago who got into some German Companies a bit older but competition may be that much more fierce these days.

[double trouble]

I also know someone who went Lsc and went straight into teaching but dk where other graduates have gone. I have also heard that u can audition for ballet companies up until early twenties ?

[LinMM]

Well the people I knew were exactly that early twenties!!

[Ellie]

The last intake of 16 year olds was September 2009.  Ever since it has been 18.

Do you know why Pas de Quatre ? 

[Wish22]

I am not doubting the replies given by people who know a lot about the ballet world but I am slightly baffled.

 

Is there such a physical difference between a 19 year old and a 21 year old (i.e. the age one would be after a 3 year course entered either at 16 or 18)?  You would have had the same training - why does it matter to a ballet company if a new dancer is two years older?
 

Even stranger that a vocational school may balk at the idea of taking a 17 year old as the it's the UK school academic calendar that determines when you can apply anyway.  Someone applying as a 17 year old may only be a 1 month older (born in the August) than others applying as a 16 year old (born in September) due to the 1st September cut off. 

[Ellie]

Good point Wish22. I don't think that, providing they have places, a vocational school would 'balk' at the idea of taking on a 17yr old who met their standards. Regarding the age which one enters a ballet company...It is such a short career and even for the very special graduates, the difference in their dance quality between leaving school and their first year in a company is substantial. I think that it's the need to maximise these talents and opportunities that necessitate the early entry into a classical career in dance. Not saying that you 'get in at 18 - or that's it'....but yes, it's the norm...In the past it was even younger of course, students with great potential would be snapped up incredibly young. x

[JulieW]

Noone said that the ballet schools would baulk at the idea of a 17 year old.

 

The main classical schools often have students a year below their normal academic age.

[Pas de Quatre]

No I don't know why LSC changed from 16 to 18 as it was already a degree course like Central and Rambert who do still take at 16.

[aileen]

I always wonder what happens to boys who are late developers and are still small when they audition for upper schools in Year 11. I would have thought that they would be at a disadvantage and that that disadvantage might persist even when they audition for companies because, for example, they do not have as much strength for partnering work.

[Wish22]

I didn't phrase my second point fully.  I meant to also pose the question of why do vocational schools say they are happy to take students at age 17 or 18 if they have little chance of being a professional dancer as most opinions on here suggest you need to be in at 16.  Or is it only exceptional 17 and 18 year olds (rather than being at a comparable level to a 16 year old).  I hope you understand what I'm getting at?

 

PS. 'balk' was probably an extreme word to use, however someone did say the 17 and 18 year olds are few and far between.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Wish22

[Thecatsmother]

There are several LSC classical graduate course students in classical companies such as Enb and Scottish Ballet (Clare Robertson) to name a couple but I am not sure about more recent graduates.

[JulieW]

They may be a bit older Wish22 but they'll still have had 3 years training when they graduate so the age doesn't matter too much. There were a couple of older international students in my son's year at Elmhurst. It's an interesting question you've posed about the advantages of going into classical training at 16 or shortly after....

[Lucinda]

I think you also have to look at the gender difference. Boys will often get accepted at an older age (18, 19) into vocational ballet courses because they generally mature physically later. For girls it seems to be more difficult to be accepted once they are past 16/17 yrs. 

The age at which dancers are "company ready" has increased compared to 20-30 years ago because dancers need to have more skills and be more versatile than previously.

Many of the vocational training programs will allow students another year until they are ready to audition. A student may also take longer to complete their training if they sustain an injury which unfortunately is relatively common.

When it comes to the crunch however I think when auditioning for a company the actual age of the dancer (18 or 22) is a much lower consideration than many other factors (luck being one).

It is a very tough path to take from any direction!

[afab]

The main classical schools often have students a year below their normal academic age.

What do you mean Julie? What happens to their academic studies? Have they been accelerated or slowed down? I can't understand what you mean... Sorry I might be thick as it's very early...

[JulieW]

They were international students in these particular cases so academics wasn't an issue, but I've known some go to dance schools/colleges after a year at "normal" sixth form so they came out of there with AS levels then they might carry on A levels at their new school/college or just do whichever qualification is on offer - Diploma in Dance, Degree etc

[afab]

Do you mean these international students were younger than the uk ones?

[2dancersmum]

Re Eileen's question about boys not having developed at 16, we do know of a couple of boys who started upper schools at 17, having been told that the schools in question thought that they would benefit from waiting a year purely to be able to cope with the physical demands of the diploma course.

 

On the question of 16 years old or is it exceptional 17/18 year olds, I would have said that it is the school year that influences things as much as anything.  Some students starting what is in effect year 12 (1st year upper school) will have been 17 before term even starts in the September and many more will be 17 within a couple of months starting.  Others will be just 16 (July & August birthdays) and will complete the whole of their 1st year as 16 years.  So I think it quite feasible that some students could start in the September following their 17th birthday and not be exceptional. My DD has a summer birthday but she is closer in age to more students in the year below than in her own year.  Likewise I have known students from Scotland, for example, where the school year and system is different, start upper school before their 16th birthday.

 

This does however also follow that for courses like LSC's, actually some may be 19 or close to it when they started - practically the same age some are finishing their vocational training so that does strike me as quite a gap.

[CeliB]

Surely the issue is not the age of the person applying to a company, but the years of training they have had. In answer to a similar question (although we were querying whether DS had to go vocational at 14)- we were told in no uncertain terms 'he will be a dancer whatever you do. But it is your choice if he is soloist in a regional company or maybe corps in a good company, OR international principal- it is up to you if you let him start now or not until16, that will be the difference'... It wasn't what we wanted to hear believe me! But seeing how DS has progressed from 14 to 16, and assuming the progression continues I can see what he was talking about.

 

If you think about the original question- if you wait until18 and then do a 3 year course, at 21 after 3 years vocational training you will be competing with 18 year olds who have had up to 10 years full time vocational training as well as 21 year olds with potentially 13 years training in vocational plus apprenticeships etc.. I can't see that you could possibly be at the same level- or why would anyone bother with vocational schools?-it's not as if we WANT to send our DKs away...

 

Of course as ever it hinges on what training you are doing before you get to the vocational course. If you can achieve the same level of hours and quality as vocational then ok, but again if it were that easy why would there be vocational schools? the only people I have heard of who have managed this have had ballet teacher parents or huge amounts of hours of private lessons....

[BankruptMum]

Surly age upon graduation is of little importance, - auditions will be mixed in ages and experience levels wouldnt they?  Its not like applying for a further course where there are age restrictions. 

[Julie 2 Milner]

Think there are a couple of things here.

 

Yes probably is slightly different for boys and girls but still those who leave training until after A levels are at a disadvantage.

 

I think we are focussing to much on the number 16 here. What I understood really is to go after GCSE rather than post A level. Of course some will be nearer 17 than 16 in the September but they have started their 3 years post GCSS.

 

When my son started at Elmhurst they specifically mentioned that the boys matured later and also that the boys during their 6th form there would go through periods of complete discordination ( sorry think I made up that word but isn't simply lack of coordination) because of this. Girls were expected to have largely finished maturing. Of course this isn't actually the case and is why many girls develop boobs and struggle more with weight during times in the 6th form.

 

Foreign students ages do vary tremendously. Some young and some old. But the old ones have usually done some training and may be doing another year or just feel and English school on their CV is good. Of course has to be an English school that gains recognition when auditioning abroad. It is a sad hard fact that the first thing companies look at is where you did your training and they do not give equal weighting to all. Indeed even having RB associates is a true help because some just see Royal Ballet. Ridiculous maybe but true. UK companies of course know the various UK schools better .

 

Re taking in older students who may have little chance of getting jobs. Honestly believe the schools aren't too bothered. They obviously need a good Graduate destination list but they need money too. Many of the dance and drama training establishments will seldom produce those who go on to have careers. Even the top 3 or 4 if you look at who is still working 4-5 years after graduation you might be shocked.

 

Age is a consideration when auditioning for companies, corps de ballet, of course. Junior companies are becoming more common. Munich, Zurich etc have then and I think Dutch Ballet does or is about to. These a brilliant because they allow a young, newly qualified, dancer to get experience without full on company life. Even at 19 many bodies are just not up to the rigours of company life. Especially when that company is small and they are dancing a lot. Many of the junior companies are up to 21/22 . Of course you can go straight into the main company too. I've noticed though many Companies now do seem to put an upper age limit for their corps auditions.

 

Must admit didn't realise LSC no longer took at 16.

 

It is  a minefield and tremendously hard work. It is a fact though that the numbers training is large and competition is fierce. Someone mentioned luck and that does play a part . Luck in what teachers you get at vocational. even at the top schools some well...... I mustn't be rude! You need dedicated teachers that care, not that have favourites. Teachers who teach in an atmosphere of encouragement and expectation that you will work your hardest. Teachers who want you to do your best and help.

 

Then you do need some luck at auditions. The huge numbers mean getting noticed becomes an art:-)

 

Then through your career that you have good directors and ballet masters/mistresses etc.

 

But I would still say for Classical post GCSE is better than post A level in the vast majority of caes.