New generation of dancers lack passion and commitment (?)

[Fonty]

Isn't that a criticism that is often given to the British?  That we are all "stiff upper lip" and don't show our emotions? 

 

It really annoys me when certain nations come out with that phrase (naming no names, of course).  I think many people make the mistake that if you are not shouting out your feelings to the entire population of the world, you have none.  For many, many people the things they feel the most strongly about are the things they want to remain private.  And personally, I prefer it that way. 

[Jan McNulty]

Well said Fonty!

 

People can feel things very deeply but not necessarily show it.  I remember many years ago seeing a dancer as Juliet.  I enjoyed her performance but didn't think there was much emotion.  The lady in question had obviously felt very deep emotions during the performance because she was obviously deeply in role and couldn't stop crying at the curtain calls

 

I suppose, going off at a tangent, that you have also got the situation where people can portray required emotion and passion because they are good actors - was it Laurence Olivier who said to Dustin Hoffman - "my dear boy, can't you just act?" when he was feeling his way into his role in Marathon Man (if you see what I mean).

 

I think all the dancers I have ever met have been passionate about their art.  Why else would they put themselves through the rigours that they have to?

[Bruce Wall]

There is an old theatrical saying: 'Lose yourself; lose your audience'.   

 

Perhaps someone needs to whisper such into Mr. Acosta's ear.  

[MAB]

There is an old theatrical saying: 'Lose yourself; lose your audience'.   

 

Perhaps someone needs to whisper such into Mr. Acosta's ear.  

As the only performer to sell out the Coli this year Carlos Acosta's audience is very substantial indeed, I doubt if he'll miss the old little Englander.

[Bruce Wall]

MAB, I fear you mistook the purpose of the quote.  It was frequently quoted by Noel Coward - that 'little Englander' as you so very generously put it.  This was quoted ONLY in defense of the current young .. .and certainly nothing 'against' Mr. Acosta such as you may have taken it..  I too saw his fine programme at the Coliseum this summer and very much enjoyed its diversity.  I wish you, MAB, naught but the most joyous of Xmas tides. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Meunier

[LinMM]

It's very hard to remain at the top level of ballet without passion and commitment......inner qualities about how you relate to what you do on a daily basis........and I don't think to be confused with projection and emotion given off etc during performance of a particular role.

 

I'm sure Mr Acosta does realise that inspite of what he appears to have said.

 

I have a feeling he may have been coming from two angles and its somehow "got lost in translation" as they say.

 

I think someone mentioned earlier(Aileen) that often people who have come from disadvantaged backgrounds and have had to sort of "fight" more than usual to get where they are......especially from a young age.......can often have developed an extra strong drive to succeed often demonstrated by extreme levels of commitment(not always healthy of course) in their work......it is all....and comes before everything else.......because at some point was needed to survive. This can be seen not only in the Dance world.

As I said ALL who reach the top level will have had to have passion and commitment to get there and stay there but perhaps not always on the same level as some who haven't had the benefit of reasonably well off parents able to back every move and so on.

 

 

I wondered whether the other angle is not so much current dancers actually in Companies but the possibility of attracting young people into the Ballet world. Perhaps he feels there is a shorter pool available because there are so many other distractions today Ballet would seem like too hard a life to many young people.

Just perhaps this is what he meant.

I'm sure he wouldn't be running down the people he has to work with after all.

[alison]

Your second option is certainly what I took him to mean when I read the original article, Lin: that young people tended not to get involved in dancing in the first place because it was such a difficult option compared with other alternatives.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Whenever I read or hear about someone speaking negatively about the next generation I am reminded of the very famous exchange of letters between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, long after each had retired from the public arena.  The letters are in a two volume set - which I treasure.

 

In one of the letters, John Adams tells Jefferson how much he fears the oncoming generation is simply unprepared and inadequate to the task of governing either the country or even their own lives.  

 

He was, of course, the father of John Quincy Adams and the progenitor of Charles Adams.

 

And, the country has managed to survive with each oncoming generation taking  the helm and then, in turn, complaining about its successor.

[chrischris]

There's been a lot of comment in the media recently about young people not having the work ethic/ passion of previous generations. It's a complicated issue, and i'm generalising, but there is a part of me that admires young people for not being willing to, in lots of cases, let themselves be exploited. I'm referring more to comments made by employers recently because lots of young people object to working for minimum wage, on zero hours contracts and putting in 18 hour days, but I think it's also quite relevant to ballet. The younger generation is accused of lacking passion and perhaps not having the singular focus needed to succeed, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I read two ballet articles recently, one with Darcey Bussell where she said her body is about 10 years older than she actually is and she has hardly any cartilage in her knees, and the other with Wayne Sleep where he said he is broke because the pay in ballet is so terrible. When you hear that, is it any wonder lots of young people don't want to apply themself to it, and would rather do something that doesn't require you to drive your body in to the ground for little job or financial security?

[aileen]

chrischris, as the parent of two teenagers I don't want young people (actually any people) to be exploited in any area of work. Some ballet dancers today do earn quite a lot of money by normal standards but I don't know whether this was the case in the past. I thought that Margot Fonteyn ended up quite poor and relied on gifts of money from Nureyev, but perhaps this was only because she had to pay large medical bills for her husband.

 

Going back to Carlos, and without wishing to denigrate his background, if you have very few options it can be easier to grasp the one hopeful looking option that you do have as you have little or nothing to lose. And Carlos should remember that he was fortunate enough to receive free tuition (and board, I believe) at his ballet school in Cuba. Plus, I'm sure that I read somewhere that he was far from a paragon of hard work at certain times when he was a student.

[chrischris]

It just annoys me sometimes when people who think there is more to life than just work are criticised by older generations because, shock horror!! they want to leave their workplace when their hours of work finish and don't feel any incentive to put in extra unpaid work.

[LinMM]

I'm not entirely sure this is a generational thing though.

 

I think every generation has its share of highly ambitious people who are very focussed on work and those who although dont shirk have other things going on they want to get on with besides their job.

 

In teaching Ive certainly met some extremely driven younger teachers who have had nothing to learn from older teachers and think you're just too old to do the job if you don't want to spend 24 hours of every day at the school!!

[chrischris]

I work in an industry where it is expected young people will do unpaid internships or volunteer, and people who earn money will earn very little and do a lot of work, unpaid, in their spare time. I stay in this industry because I love it and i'm passionate about it, but I have also been accused of not caring enough because I draw the line at giving up pretty much all my free time to it, and because I believe it is important to both have a life and to get paid for the work you put in. I agree it's not always generational and a lot of these issues are not strictly relevant to ballet, but there have been a few threads recently about the lack of passion in the young and the comparatively lack of success in British youngsters against foreigners of the same age, and I don't necessarily think it's a lack of passion or ability or drive, maybe just a different approach to life. It may be that youngsters today are lazy and too aware of their rights, but I don't think in every case that is necessarily a bad thing.

[taxi4ballet]

I think someone mentioned earlier(Aileen) that often people who have come from disadvantaged backgrounds and have had to sort of "fight" more than usual to get where they are......especially from a young age.......can often have developed an extra strong drive to succeed often demonstrated by extreme levels of commitment(not always healthy of course) in their work......it is all....and comes before everything else.......because at some point was needed to survive. This can be seen not only in the Dance world.

As I said ALL who reach the top level will have had to have passion and commitment to get there and stay there but perhaps not always on the same level as some who haven't had the benefit of reasonably well off parents able to back every move and so on.

 

For those who have had to fight extreme adversity at every step of the way in order to become successful, it must be quite difficult sometimes to relate their personal feelings and experiences to others who appear to have had an 'easier' path.

[Amelia]

Whenever I read or hear about someone speaking negatively about the next generation I am reminded of the very famous exchange of letters between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson...

 

 

Well, speaking negatively about the next generation started a little earlier:

 

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”  ― Socrates

[Tony Newcombe]

Priceless. I guess we all become grumpy old persons eventually

[Anjuli_Bai]

 

Well, speaking negatively about the next generation started a little earlier:

 

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”  ― Socrates

 

 

 

I suppose Adam had a negative thing or two to say about Cain.

[MAB]

It just annoys me sometimes when people who think there is more to life than just work are criticised by older generations because, shock horror!! they want to leave their workplace when their hours of work finish and don't feel any incentive to put in extra unpaid work.

Okay, but the hard facts are that when the redundancies come round, it won't be the grafters that go first - it will be the clock-watchers.

 

[GTL]

Oh MAB, that's not fair. In a more general context than ballet, it has not been my experience: I've seen loyal, experienced, respected professionals made redundant as they reach their fifties, to the detriment of their pensions, while others less skilled remain because they are closer to management or more assertive. Isn't it supposed to be that the post is redundant rather than the person?

[lakeylakes]

Okay, but the hard facts are that when the redundancies come round, it won't be the grafters that go first - it will be the clock-watchers.

I was made redundant from 60 hour plus a week job in my fifties, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I have a lot less money but a lot more time. Don't do what you don't like you will soon be told old to do anything. The work ethic is OK but so is              " standing and staring".

[MAB]

Ageism is a separate subject though, the favourite ploy of management for dealing with over 50's is to make them reapply for their jobs and then award that job to someone younger and cheaper: disgusting in my view. Where I work if you aren't prepared to put in the hours there is no point in applying for a job in the first place.

[GTL]

We agree on the job reapplication farce, I hope we can agree that putting in the hours, plus lots more, is no guarantee against redundancy, often it's sheer bad luck.

 

Back to ballet productivity: for a staggering example of a young dancer's work ethic, look at Junor Souza's schedule on the ENB Nutcracker website, he's partnering four celebrated ballerinas between 11 and 13 December!

[LinMM]

Just to add......in regard to an earlier post of mine that of course not ALL younger teachers I have worked with are of the super ambitious type referred to in that post who manage to make quite a few people's lives a misery. In fact most Ive worked with are delightful and hard working in a more normal sort of way and....dare I say it....even fun!!

 

 

However you do get this sort of competitiveness that can creep in of who can stay the longest after school and get there the earliest the next morning. It comes out when say one teacher complains of feeling a bit tired and another will say"well Ive been here since 7.30 this morning" ......so that puts everyone in their place then!! Definitely a badge of Honour!!!......and don't we all know it!

 

There are many jobs like teaching which are open ended so in one sense your work is never finished......there's ALWAYS something more you could be doing.....so you have to draw the line somewhere or you really might as well take in a camp bed to school/office.

 

In MABS post where it's said that "if you're not prepared to put in the hours then there's no point in applying for the job in the first place"

Exactly how many hours is the point. It has to be humanly reasonable. That's why there are supposed to be certain Laws in place to limit exploitation in the work place. You can choose to be exploited of course and if you are not unhappy about it then that's okay. But many do this not out of love for the job but out of fear of losing it and this to me at any rate is not a healthy situation.

 

Love the Socrates quote......just shows how some things don't change that much.....and yes, much as one tries to resist it sooner or later we do probably turn into grumpy old......especially when put booking dates into diaries to remind of important dates like Young Dancer of the Year and then STILL forget!!! Anyone got a spare ticket?

[Timmie]

Back to ballet productivity: for a staggering example of a young dancer's work ethic, look at Junor Souza's schedule on the ENB Nutcracker website, he's partnering four celebrated ballerinas between 11 and 13 December!

 

I did wonder last night what it was like for him dancing with "The Boss"  . 

[capybara]

Sensibly Junor did not, in the end, play the Nutcracker with Elena Glurdjidze's Clara on Thursday afternoon. However he did dance the Nutcracker with both Daria Klimentova and Alina Cojocaru and, then, the Nephew/Prince with Tamara Rojo on three consecutive evenings.

[aileen]

I thought that Matthew Golding was supposed to be dancing with Tamara in The Nutcracker.

[capybara]

I thought that Matthew Golding was supposed to be dancing with Tamara in The Nutcracker.

 

Later in the run, apparently.

[Moomin]

Perhaps part of the problem is that the ballet world is so preoccupied by physical perfection, if you are choosing dancers based primarily on physique you can hardly be surprised when you do not recruit those who necessarily have the most passion or are the most hardworking.

[alison]

I think you have a good point there, Moomin.  After all, it has been said that people like Nureyev and Fonteyn probably wouldn't make it into companies these days because they wouldn't have met the physical standards.

[Fonty]

I think you have a good point there, Moomin.  After all, it has been said that people like Nureyev and Fonteyn probably wouldn't make it into companies these days because they wouldn't have met the physical standards.

 

 

Really?  Why is that?  Ashton described Fonteyn as having "the proportions of Venus", so what has changed?  She was petite, but she wasn't minute, I am sure she would have achieved the minimum height required.  (Is it 5' 3"?) 

 

I think Nureyev was on the shortish side, but he seemed to manage to partner Fonteyn quite well, I believe?     Isn''t Stephen McRae a similar height to Nureyev? 

 

On a slightly different, possibly controversial tack, there seems to be this idea that people from poor backgrounds have more drive and passion to succeed than those who come from wealthier families.  Hence the notion that people born in less affluent countries have a better work ethic than those from, say, the UK.  Certainly, there are many people  in the public eye who have come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and made it to the top in their chosen profession.  However, these people usually publicize their origins, in order to inspire the next generation, saying, "Look at me, I did it and you can too".  The successful people born with a silver spoon in their mouths tend not to mention this, for obvious reasons. 

 

I would say that nobody would be successful in the world of ballet if they did not have that burning desire to do well, and to commit themselves to it from a very early age.  And that passion is something they are born with, and has nothing to do with what sort of background you come from, surely?

[Nina G.]

Fonty: "The successful people born with a silver spoon in their mouths tend not to mention this, for obvious reasons". 

 

I agree with what you say.

 

The ones born "with a silver spoon in their mouths" have to give up a hell of a lot, whilst the ones from disadvantaged backgrounds have everything to gain. That's perhaps why very few from the more comfortable (or even wealthy) backgrounds ultimately choose this profession (why making their life hard when they can have it so much easier). Who is to be more admired?

 

In any case, both groups have to put in the same hard work, they both have to have a burning desire and passion for ballet alongside immense commitment (but someone making it to the top from a disadvantaged background is a far more attractive story to the press and also gets more sympathy from the general public ).

Edited December 15, 2013 by Nina G.

[Pas de Quatre]

I have generally observed that it is those pupils with supportive parents who have most chance of succeeding regardless of background.  These parents have taught good basic values to their children which will serve them in all walks of life - respect, work ethic, self discipline etc. etc. 

[Ian Macmillan]

Avid readers of our Links may have spotted one from an Independent writer, D J Taylor, this morning.  It's chiefly a discourse on the extent to which new technologies may have started to control us, but he starts by referring to the Acosta interview originally in the Radio Times (and not the later Telegraph précis that launched this thread) and effectively dismisses it as an 'inter-generational putdown' not based on evidence but on assumption:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ballet-star-carlos-acosta-can-rage-but-we-are-all-slaves-to-the-machines-9005296.html