aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Lin, did you see Bella Figural performed by Boston Ballet this summer? Both men and women were topless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) I agree with everything said about Macmillan, whose work rises above all this, shows characters not objects, involves us on every level.. Ah, Mary .... I see you may not as yet have climbed THE JUDAS TREE!!!??? Edited November 20, 2013 by Meunier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 From dancers' tweets, it seems that they are desperate to perform McGregor. Perhaps it's a generation thing; perhaps it's a 'cool' thing; perhaps it's a total unselfconsciousness about their own and other people's bodies thing. One thing's certain though: if one has a daughter who wishes to become a ballet dancer she really needs to see this kind of work before she gets too far down the line. I agree that knowing what she might be letting herself in for would be a good thing. However, (judging by what I have read on here) some of it might not be suitable viewing for under 16's...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Well, I don't know at what age vocational students would be expected to dance work by choreographers such as Forsythe, McGregor, Galili etc. Perhaps they are over 16. They do need to know, though, that ballet isn't just tutus and fairy tales. It's not (no longer?) a decorous art form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Well I liked the Judas Tree......even though was uncomfortable and shocking! The tension had me on edge of seat. A very dark ballet. It may be down to your overall life experiences as to whether you are wanting to see such ballets I suppose. No Aileen I didn't see that ballet. I would go if it was not to be missed for choreography or music or wonderful theatre I suppose but I would have not really been happy with the nudity.....women's or men's!!!! I wouldn't want it banned or anything but just puts me off unless absolutely necessary as part of some plot. Brings to mind a certain production called "the Romans" !!! Somebody mentioned Anastasia. They were repulsed by some part of it. It's now so long since Ive seen this ballet that was trying to remember. Must have been in he second Act when she goes mad. I saw Lyn Seymour in this and thought she was wonderful. What I'm trying to remember is being repulsed......does something happen here Ive forgotten perhaps? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 They do need to know, though, that ballet isn't just tutus and fairy tales. It's not (no longer?) a decorous art form. Yes, we do know. She's never been one for dressing up and pretending to be a princess anyway! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Lin, did you see Bella Figural performed by Boston Ballet this summer? Both men and women were topless. I would not want to see a ballet performed topless. I've never seen Bella Figura - is the topless aspect integral to the story? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 No it isn't. In fact there is a film of it with NDT (possibly on Youtube) where from a long shot the dancers look splendid with their red bottom halves, but as the camera comes in closer you realise that even the slimmest dancers can't get rid of the jiggle factor and to my mind it looks silly. In the 1960/70s NDT produced a nude ballet and John Percival a major critic at the time damned it by saying men shouldn't dance nude unless they had control of every part of their anatomy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Ugh. I honestly can see NO need for toplessness or nudity in ballet. Even when there is a top yanked down in Mayerling, it's cleverly done so that it's left to the imagination. I don't have a problem with that, but I cannot see the appeal of nudity for the sake of it when a cleverly designed costume would do the trick. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Bella Figura is a beautiful ballet but in my opinion there is absolutely no need for it to be performed topless. It just detracts and distracts from the overall performance. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Europeans seem to be much more more comfortable with nudity than the British and the Americans. Having said that, as PdQ said, there is the issue of the 'jiggle factor' in a ballet performance. Moving this thread on, I'm surprised that none of these hipster choreographers has created a ballet based around a relationship other than a heterosexual love affair eg a gay relationship or a relationship between friends or a parent and child. Even in Raven Girl the eponymous heroine met/married a Raven Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newcombe Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 What about Bintley's Edward II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 David Nixon's Swan Lake (which is brilliant) has an interesting love triangle too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Tony and Janet, can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Edward II had a number of close relationships with men (Gaveston to name but one) that are depicted in the Marlowe play and in Bintley's ballet. Apart from scenes between the 2 men there is also a pdt with Isabella where she is treated almost like a rag doll (but is entirely appropriate to the plot) and I know a number of people who have not watched Edward's execution in the ballet. David Nixon's Swan Lake depicts a relationship between two good friends - Anthony and Simon and how Anthony's subsequent marriage to Odilia causes him to fall apart at the seams (I think I got the names the right way round). Then, of course, there is also the interaction between Dracula and Harker (in both the versions shown by NB). And an interesting take on brides of Dracula taking advantage of Harker. Slightly o/t but one of Alan Bleasdale's plays, Having a Ball, is set in a vasectomy clinic. The leading man is having second thoughts and does a long soliloquy as he is getting undressed ending up standing at the front of the stage stark naked for some time. It was a bit disconcerting sitting on the front row of the Liverpool Playhouse during this section of the play! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I would definitely be too embarrassed to go if they start dancing regularly in the nude though! However am of the older generation so perhaps younger people take such things in their stride! Lin, and Spanner, you must be mighty relieved that Tamara Rojo never (or hasn't so far, at any rate - who knows what may happen in the future?) got her wish to have the RB dance Mats Ek's "Giselle". I certainly was . It might be all right to have some unknown Albrecht dancing naked, but when it's the "home team" who you're going to have to watch for years afterwards, and might even bump into in the street, it would be weird, and distinctly embarrassing, I think. I'm hoping she doesn't bring it in for ENB, either, but think the type of audience they get would probably make that impossible anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Gordon Bennett, yes, I am relieved! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I believe that Tamara is a big fan of Mats Ek's work (I think that I read somewhere that his Carmen is one of her favourite ballets) and so there must be a risk........!!! Why is Albrecht naked though? I agree that it would be more embarrassing if it were someone who we were likely to see for years afterwards. It doesn't bear (bare!) thinking about. But perhaps we're all too prudish. Going back to topless women, I don't think that there was too much of a problem in the jiggling department in Bella Figural because it was quite a lyrical piece (not that I used my binoculars much because I didn't want to come across as a perv). I think that toplessness in a more vigorous piece would descend into 'Carry on Camping' style bawdiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Tweet from critic Donald Hutera just now: Lotta bare male bums & free willies @ThePlaceLondon's Currency bill last night. Slap-happy bromance & cartoon existentialism. Invigorating! 20/11/2013 14:11 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hurrah! We Brits are not such prudes after all! I'd better be careful when I book anything at the Place in future. I couldn't tell whether the men in the photograph on the front cover of the latest brochure were actually naked down below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Williams Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Er.....I wonder if Hutera's tweet will sell The Place out? (The Place's audience being rather dissimilar to the contributors to this thread - so far anyway...) Edited November 20, 2013 by Ann Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Alison must look up this Giselle .......are all in the nude.....or all the men....or just Albrecht! Poor bloke if just him. Can imagine the RB dancers taking straws for the role and dreading getting the short one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Albrecht only. Is it him who ends up in an asylum, or Giselle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Albrecht only. Is it him who ends up in an asylum, or Giselle? Or the audience? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Meunier I HAVE seen The Judas Tree-twice! and I was sneakily not mentioning it. I didn't like it overmuch... But- that is one work among so many by Macmillan I have found endlessly enjoyable . Whereas McGregor hasn't done even one work I want to see again. I don't object to nudity or "rudeness"_I think we are all objecting to a kind of dehumanising/objectification/lack of depth, superficial sensationalism.....that lacks the human angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) I don't really see what the big deal is with nudity to be honest. I think there is probably a difference in attitudes between generations. Edited November 20, 2013 by chrischris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I don't really see what the big deal is with nudity to be honest. I think there is probably a difference in attitudes between generations. Doesn't bother me overly much either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 It's not that there is anything wrong with nudity but it is usually gratuitous, doesn't add anything to the dancing and can be a distraction or even add unintentional comedy value. Sadly I think we will be seeing more nudity and more spatchcocking in the future to try to capture audiences through shock value. Some of the Facebook comments I have read today were in praise of Stuttgart Ballet's 'tricks' with splits etc at Sadlers Wells last night. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I have no problem with nudity if it is entirely voluntary. The audience can then decide whether or not they wish to buy a ticket. However, can you picture the pressure on young dancers if they are uneasy about stripping off? I can imagine they would be anxious about future casting or career prospects if they refused. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Well there are obviously lots of issues surrounding nudity in the entertainment industry, but I think generally British people, and perhaps older British people (though that is a huge generalisation) have a funny attitude to it. When I was at school doing my art GCSE (so around 15/16) we had the option of going to a life drawing class. We had to get parental approval and I was surprised that many parents refused to let their teenage children go, and even complained to the school about it, as I cant think of anything more natural and less threatening than a nude model in a drawing class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 A dancer friend of mine told me (in confidence) that she once had a job where she had to dance topless for part of the performance and she hated every second of it. After a fortnight she'd had enough and quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I think there is a difference between a nude model in an art class who is fairly static and nude people dancing around a stage!! Especially if the female is then placed in certain positions that have been talked about on this thread!! There is nothing intrinsically wrong with being nude of course but some people naturally prefer some degree of privacy. its actually quite interesting as I think one is possibly born more shy in this way........my mother had no qualms about her body but right from a child......so certainly didnt learn it from my mother.......I have been more fussy about being nude in public whereas she had no such worries!! There are probably quite a few on here who have sunbathed nude given the chance. I have myself if we can find a wild enough beach...... the costa del Luz in southern Spain used to be a great place as miles of beach and not many people!! But I wouldn't on a crowded beach or swimming pool not even topless!! I don't mind at all when having a massage as its a requirement of the purpose and again private. It is partly cultural as unless you are a naturalist we don't usually in everyday life wander the streets in the nude so why would this suddenly be or normal in a theatre unless there is a specific purpose for it.......as there is in an Art class......with students studying the human form. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I know there's a big difference but the point I was trying to make was that some people find something as innocuous as a life drawing class embarrassing/ offensive/ inapproporate/ whatever, which to me is a bit weird. I think the issue of nudity and the issue of modern choreography are for the most part separate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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