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Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life


Michelle_Richer

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Well of course it is watered down if not on pointe ......but even with some rep just using the demi can be a very difficult level still.

 

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If the repertoire is not being danced en pointe then it is 'watered down' IMO.

 

 

LinMM, I don't think aileen has any issue with simplified version of a variation nor saying that dancing "wartered down" version is easy...

 

I think she is just pointing out that if one feels fit to call a simplified version of a variation  a "wartered down version", then surely "making due allowances for the physical (and technical, shall we add?) limitations" of a certain dancer also equates to "watered down version" of a certain variation.

 

Edited to say, sorry I don't understand how multi-quote work yet!

Edited by mimi66
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I totally get the injury frustration but there are other non injured parts you can improve. I do struggle a bit in a 500 sq ft flat without causing additional injuries to myself or the furniture though. If there was a fly on the wall I am sure it would be giggling watching me???? Often I do my exercises whilst watching ballet on TV as it helps motivate me.

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Well of course it is watered down if not on pointe ......but even with some rep just using the demi can be a very difficult level still.

 

I don't do pointe work any more anyway so all rep is watered down in that way but some step combinations may still need modifying a bit whether on pointe or not.

 

 

I agree that doing variations technically correctly 'just' on demi-pointe is still very difficult. You could argue that it's 'watered-down' just because it's not en pointe. But what about if it's in a professional context and choreography was amended in some way? I once went to a professional production of Swan Lake from a well-known company with other dancer-friends. We were looking out for the black swan's 32 fouettes. However, the black swan's variation went by and we noticed that she had missed out the fouettes. I don't the exact steps in the variation to know what adjustments were made. This is not a complaint against professional dancers, but just curious to know if this would then be considered a 'water-down' version of the Black Swan variation, since it did not contain the fouettes?

 

 

How do Adult classes work with regards to moving up a level? Does the whole class get moved up as a group? Or would the teacher speak to students individually and suggest they might be ready to move up? Or is it left to the student to decide?

 

Sorry for all the questions; I'm just curious how it works compared to, say, assessments at Associates.

 

I think some adult dancers continue doing a class if the atmosphere suits them. I have heard of (adult) dancers saying they would rather do a particular class than a more advanced class because the more basic class had a better atmosphere. Personally, I try to include a more basic class in my schedule because I like having the chance to work on my corrections in more basic enchainments. In the effort to make everything as 'perfect' as possible, I find it can be even more exhausting than my 'proper' level of class!

 

I have come across one teacher who would have a quiet word with a dancer at the end of class if they felt he/she was not ready for that level. But I have also come across a teacher (who teaches different classes of different levels) who appears not to mind if people 'promote' themsevles too much. For example, if a beginning student placed him/herself to an intermediate/advanced level after a few terms in beginners, I don't think that teacher would say anything to that student. Personally, I think it's kinder and more beneficial if the teacher had a word with the student if they felt the class level was not suitable for them.

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I think that attending a class which is too advanced for you can be quite selfish if the teacher has to spend a disproportionate amount of time explaining or demonstrating something to a student who is not at the technical level of the class. It could also be quite dangerous if the class is quite large, space is limited and the student does not have adequate control over her body when undertaking certain exercises or enchainements. I'm quite surprised that adult students promote themselves without speaking to the teacher first. That would never happen with a child or teenager, but I suppose that adults don't like to be told what they can or cannot do!

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I personally don't like the expression watered down .......I used it initially in quotes I usually say adapted repertoire!

 

Sometimes it may be only a little adapted from the original dance and sometimes much more especially if learning a solo from one of the classics.

 

Some teachers do their own choreography and I like this too. As long as the music is inspiring etc.

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I agree that doing variations technically correctly 'just' on demi-pointe is still very difficult. You could argue that it's 'watered-down' just because it's not en pointe. But what about if it's in a professional context and choreography was amended in some way? I once went to a professional production of Swan Lake from a well-known company with other dancer-friends. We were looking out for the black swan's 32 fouettes. However, the black swan's variation went by and we noticed that she had missed out the fouettes. I don't the exact steps in the variation to know what adjustments were made. This is not a complaint against professional dancers, but just curious to know if this would then be considered a 'water-down' version of the Black Swan variation, since it did not contain the fouettes?

 

Yes.The first time I saw Swan Lake was starring Galina Samtsova with SWRB. Nice enough production but she didn`t do any Fouettes at all,and her Black Swan tutu was.....Red.!

 

I think some adult dancers continue doing a class if the atmosphere suits them. I have heard of (adult) dancers saying they would rather do a particular class than a more advanced class because the more basic class had a better atmosphere. Personally, I try to include a more basic class in my schedule because I like having the chance to work on my corrections in more basic enchainments. In the effort to make everything as 'perfect' as possible, I find it can be even more exhausting than my 'proper' level of class!

 

I have come across one teacher who would have a quiet word with a dancer at the end of class if they felt he/she was not ready for that level. But I have also come across a teacher (who teaches different classes of different levels) who appears not to mind if people 'promote' themsevles too much. For example, if a beginning student placed him/herself to an intermediate/advanced level after a few terms in beginners, I don't think that teacher would say anything to that student. Personally, I think it's kinder and more beneficial if the teacher had a word with the student if they felt the class level was not suitable for them.

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Oh,Don`t quite know what happened there. My comment about Galina Samtsova,and quoting of Dancer Sugar Plum seems to have resulted in my comment landing right in the middle of hers. Sorry about that.!

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Gosh, a red tutu for black swan. That would have confused me.

 

I guess it's better to alter professionally when it cannot be achieved technically to a high standard although most companies would not pick rep that was not suitable for their company. I do remember years back watching a small company where one of the male dancers did a double tour and landed after 1.5 turns with his back to the audience.

 

As for amateur performances unless they are vocational students I doubt any will not have some form of adapted choreography. It's just about being realistic about what is achievable given that most amateurs have not spent years in full time training and been specially selected as being suitable for this.

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Actually you do have to watch exercising in a smallish space!

 

The "piano room " where I practice at home also has quite a bit of stored bits and pieces on a folded up dining table which is rarely used and the other day I was doing that yoga move where you take your feet backwards over behind your head and some how my foot got caught on something hanging down from the table and I ended up disturbing the equilibrium of quite a bit of this stuff and brought it down on top of me!!

Luckily nothing too heavy or hard so no harm done but it does pay to watch where putting legs and arms!!

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I think that attending a class which is too advanced for you can be quite selfish if the teacher has to spend a disproportionate amount of time explaining or demonstrating something to a student who is not at the technical level of the class. It could also be quite dangerous if the class is quite large, space is limited and the student does not have adequate control over her body when undertaking certain exercises or enchainements. I'm quite surprised that adult students promote themselves without speaking to the teacher first. That would never happen with a child or teenager, but I suppose that adults don't like to be told what they can or cannot do!

 

Apart from some adults not wanting to be told what they cannot do by others, it is also because the way most adult start learning ballet is organised quite differently from that of those children new to ballet.  For adult open class learners, more often than not, it simply means just turning up to a totally different class if they want to move up to higher level class - may be a different studio, most often different teachers. 

 

I am limiting my comments on adult beginners moving up to elementary level class, as it is where the self-promotion mostly raises issue aileen illustrates above. Normally by the time people truly progressed to elementary level, they should be able to assess their own ability better so less problem there and beyond.  (Though there is always at least one or two odd people who....)

 

In my case, I was lucky as my beginners'+ class teacher also taught general level class (at the time more geared towards at elementary level), so I had a chat with my beginners+  class teacher and on her recommendation started to gradually move up - about a year I did 2 beginners+ class and one general, then after that 2 general class with 1 beginners+, then finally I was taking 3 general level class.  

 

I think transition between beginners+ class to elementary level class is quite a huge and difficult leap - the easiest (and the safest) way to handle it is if the steps are taken gradually.  

 

Problem is that often adult learners do not have a stream-lined guidance - the next level class one wants to attend is more likely to be taught by another teacher, in another studio.  If one can only fit in ballet classes on certain days of the week, then it may be necessary to just change the class one goes to, very abruptly.  Perhaps one might become a bit reluctant to speak to one's beginner's class teacher that you were thinking of trying out beginners+ class, as that means one would no longer be taking that teachers class, wrongly assuming that might hurt the teacher's feelings.

 

Then there is another problem.  Those who are new to ballet tend not to realise how long it takes to master the basics vocabs for ballet - unless they have some experience for other classical discipline such as classical music to a fairly competent level (eg more than just a few years experience).  For most adults beginners, if one did ballet once a week "for a while",  they generally think they should be able to call themselves "intermediate" ballet dancers.  They are not wrong to have that sort of expectation, because other more social dances such as Salsa, that's how people would divide the class levels. So after only 6 months to a year, some people feel that they ought be seen dancing in an "intermediate" class rather than staying in a "beginners'" class. 

 

But ballet (or other classical discipline) does not quite work like that.  It takes a whole lot longer - and one cannot hurry the process by overkill either.  Over and above 2 classes a week, intensity of one's training (as in how many classes one takes in a week) does not make that much difference to most adult beginner learners (particularly adults over 30s) and could even be harmful and counterproductive to one's progress.

 

Ballet teachers I do not think tend to tell their beginner students how long it takes to progress beyond beginners level in ballet (actually, in any dance!).  Well, they don't normally have time to do those lectures, and I suspect that the fact ballet is not easy (certainly not "instant") is so obvious to ballet teachers that they probably are not aware that it needs to be explained to some eager adult learners.

 

Also it is natural that ballet teachers do not want to discourage people starting ballet, by first telling them they need to be patient to see the progress... people nowadays can be so quick to attack someone for being "snob" or "elitist" if someone told them something they do not want to hear on subjects they don't know well (...but think they do..).

 

Yes, as an adult, we should all use common sense and should not be self-promoting oneself to a "more difficult" class... and most people actually do use their common sense.  But some of the things needs to be taught - after all, one needs to know enough to know one's ignorance, and how would one do that if one is new to ballet?

Edited by mimi66
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I once went to a professional production of Swan Lake from a well-known company with other dancer-friends. We were looking out for the black swan's 32 fouettes. However, the black swan's variation went by and we noticed that she had missed out the fouettes. I don't the exact steps in the variation to know what adjustments were made. This is not a complaint against professional dancers, but just curious to know if this would then be considered a 'water-down' version of the Black Swan variation, since it did not contain the fouettes?

 

I'm wondering whether perhaps the dancer was nursing an injury sustained earlier in the performance, or whether she was unwell or a bit dizzy, or even that she'd just felt her pointe shoe break at a very inconvenient moment!

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Another 4 hours of ballet today, mostly rep based. Rehearsal at LAB going forward is now with pancake tutu bases and romantic tutu’s, we used both tonight as we were rehearsing different scenes. That’s allowing us to get acclimatised with the separation distance between dancers especially in pancake tutus and to making due allowances for the lower arm positions etc, for when we are performing. Most had brought their tutu’s including me.

 

Only one slight dampener on the evening at RAD HQ, we have lost the use of our studio for practice before our class starts at 7.30pm, as the studio is now booked for the next few weeks by some ballroom dancers. I know in the past I have arrive two hours early and the studio has been available.

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The thing is I think Mimi is that when you have a difficult subject to learn like Ballet or learning the piano it usually has its own self limits as it is just too difficult.....say with piano to walk in and play a piece at grade 8 if you are really only grade 2 ......you just would get bored and frustrated with the struggle which would be very un satisfying and for MOST people I think that's the same with ballet. It's just not that enjoyable to do a class which is way too difficult so MOST people tend to seek out a class which will give them more satisfaction.

There are always exceptions to general rules!

 

 

Because most children do learn in graded classes of some sort the whole progression thing is much easier......though also not without its probs as some progress much faster than others within a group and this can cause issues on occasions.

In the adult world it's very hard to find classes which progress more gradually so at one point or another one is having to take a bit of a jump sometimes especially if there's nothing locally between beginners and Intermediate/advanced as is often the case. Often you are in one class that's too easy and one that's too difficult which can be very frustrating.

I am extremely lucky where I live with the range and variety of classes and if push comes to shove well London is not too far away.

But others are not so lucky unfortunately.

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I think that most children and adults have a natural limit in both ballet and classical music, more so in the case of ballet because of the extreme physical requirements of the discipline. Sometimes, however hard the student works, the body is never going to have the strength, flexibility etc to perform certain movements, enchainements etc well. I appreciate that with adults there may not be a range of classes, at different levels, on offer to many people and that the adult student often has to make compromises. I do think that it must be difficult having an enormous range of abilities, from vocationally trained adults to adult beginners with only a couple of years of learning under their belts, in one class.

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The thing is I think Mimi is that when you have a difficult subject to learn like Ballet or learning the piano it usually has its own self limits as it is just too difficult.....say with piano to walk in and play a piece at grade 8 if you are really only grade 2 ......you just would get bored and frustrated with the struggle which would be very un satisfying and for MOST people I think that's the same with ballet. It's just not that enjoyable to do a class which is way too difficult so MOST people tend to seek out a class which will give them more satisfaction.

There are always exceptions to general rules!

 

 

 

 

Oh, I agree with you, LinMM.

 

I just remembered  - one of the classes I used to go to.

 

It was an intermediate level (as in after elementary level) class.  At times when there were too many people (new faces, of course) who are not ready for this class, the class just morphed into near advance level.... :(  

 

Well, guess what happened after a few weeks of morphed classes.  We lost most new people who were actually ready for the class (at normal level) - though it would be rather challenging for a few months -, and some of those who were not ready (by miles) decided they really liked the class and stayed on... thought (luckily) their attendance tended to be erratic after the initial enthusiasim waned....

Edited by mimi66
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It was an intermediate level (as in after elementary level) class.  At times when there were too many people (new faces, of course) who are not ready for this class, the class just morphed into near advance level.... :(  

 

Well, guess what happened after a few weeks of morphed classes.  We lost most new people who were actually ready for the class (at normal level) - though it would be rather challenging for a few months -, and some of those who were not ready (by miles) decided they really liked the class and stayed on.

 

Oh I wonder if that was me?

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I think that attending a class which is too advanced for you can be quite selfish if the teacher has to spend a disproportionate amount of time explaining or demonstrating something to a student who is not at the technical level of the class. It could also be quite dangerous if the class is quite large, space is limited and the student does not have adequate control over her body when undertaking certain exercises or enchainements. I'm quite surprised that adult students promote themselves without speaking to the teacher first. That would never happen with a child or teenager, but I suppose that adults don't like to be told what they can or cannot do!

 

I think there can be adults 'promoting' themselves too much maybe because of ignorance. There was one woman I started ballet with, who dropped out a year or 2 later. When I bumped into her again, she said she booked herself on the intermediate class after a few terms doing beginners but she could not see the difference between the classes because you do the same steps and she could not see an improvement. I think there are dancers, including children and teenagers, who decide to stop ballet because they don't understand that ballet is repetitive, ie you don't stop doing plies and tendus because you are beyond the beginners' stage or you are a professonal dancer now! I also think the very technical aspect of ballet just doesn't suit some people.

 

Also, the set up of some dance studios don't suit ballet either. If there are different dancer genres happening at the studios/dance centre, there is probably an admin system where you book for a term in advance and there is a 'fight' for a place in that class. Some classes get booked up quickly, including ballet. Therefore, when term starts, the teacher has no 'power' to tell/suggest to a student that they should do a lower level class because all classes are full so the student wouldn't be able to move anyway. The teacher wouldn't be involved in the admin side of things, so he/she can't suggest swapping and changing people between classes. I think dance centres with this type of termly booking doesn't ballet for these reasons. I agree that it's dangerous to have students in a too-advanced level, but if that dance centre books students this way, it's unlikely they would change their booking system or give the teacher more 'power' just for ballet.

 

From what I've seen of ballet schools that mainly cater for children and teenagers, this sort of thing wouldn't happen because you/your DC would be put on a waiting list. Or if you really needed classes, you would look elsewhere.

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Then there is another problem.  Those who are new to ballet tend not to realise how long it takes to master the basics vocabs for ballet - unless they have some experience for other classical discipline such as classical music to a fairly competent level (eg more than just a few years experience).  For most adults beginners, if one did ballet once a week "for a while",  they generally think they should be able to call themselves "intermediate" ballet dancers.  They are not wrong to have that sort of expectation, because other more social dances such as Salsa, that's how people would divide the class levels. So after only 6 months to a year, some people feel that they ought be seen dancing in an "intermediate" class rather than staying in a "beginners'" class. 

 

But ballet (or other classical discipline) does not quite work like that.  It takes a whole lot longer - and one cannot hurry the process by overkill either.  Over and above 2 classes a week, intensity of one's training (as in how many classes one takes in a week) does not make that much difference to most adult beginner learners (particularly adults over 30s) and could even be harmful and counterproductive to one's progress.

 

Ballet teachers I do not think tend to tell their beginner students how long it takes to progress beyond beginners level in ballet (actually, in any dance!).  Well, they don't normally have time to do those lectures, and I suspect that the fact ballet is not easy (certainly not "instant") is so obvious to ballet teachers that they probably are not aware that it needs to be explained to some eager adult learners.

 

 

If you tell (non-ballet) people you do 3+ classes a week in my experience, they will ask you, "Wow, are you not almost at professional level?!" Then if you try and explain how hard and long the training is to actually have a chance of getting into a classical company, how young you need to start, etc, they'll say, "Why are you talking down your abilities? Surely you're just as good as the professionals because you do so many classes?!" It's so hard to explain! How do you explain why you're not good enough to dance in a classical company?! (I mean this in a light-hearted way) So it can be just as hard to explain to adult beginners why they are not at intermediate level just because they've done class for, say, a year.

 

Another difficulty is getting them to understand that, for example, being able to spin round is not a proper pirouette. They may be sickling the foot, not shaping/pointing the working foot properly, turning the leg in, etc, etc. Yet since they can 'do' a double turn, they believe they 'should be' in the intermediate class.

 

There are lots of areas of technique like this where it's not enough just to know what the steps are. It's the detail of executing the steps that mark out an advanced dancer from a beginners+ dancer. I think this must be very difficult to explain to beginners, if teachers ever try to explain this to dancers.

Edited by Dancer Sugar Plum
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Oh I wonder if that was me?

 

No, Michelle.  Just for the record, it was way before you started dancing.

 

Do you see yourself in this description? Well, there are a few individuals like that in any given general upwards class  - a lot of people who have been going to open-class (above elementary level) for a while  can easily come up with several examples! ;)

Edited by mimi66
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being able to spin round is not a proper pirouette. They may be sickling the foot, not shaping/pointing the working foot properly, turning the leg in, etc, etc. Yet since they can 'do' a double turn, they believe they 'should be' in the intermediate class..

 

Well I'm sure that applies to me, I do remember on one occasion I went to Northern’s Intermediate/advanced class and we were doing an enchainement across the room, I think we were doing doubles then but I cant be sure, our teacher was at the end observing, I know I go a “GOOD ONE” comment from him. That in itself wasn’t unusual, however later that week I did a rep workshop with Northern and afterwards we got to watch the Northern’s company class work out on Leeds grand theatre stage, it was the same teacher conducting it and he used the same enchainement for the professions, for me that made that comment very special, but I am sure if you had been there you would be looking for his blind dog.

 

 

 

 there are a few individuals like that in any given general upwards class  - a lot of people who have been going to open-class (above elementary level) for a while  can easily come up with several examples! ;)

 

I am sure you're right, I know of two that moved up to level three and after a week or two went back down to level 2 as they found themselves that they were not ready, I would not regard these as selfish or the teacher having to spend a disproportionate amount of time explaining or demonstrating something to a student who is not at the technical level of the class. Those two individuals are now back in level 3 after spending a further term in level 2.

 

For me at ENB I did start at level 1, although there is an “Absolute Beginner” level below that, given the option I would have started higher, possibly level 2. Never the less I did find level 1 quite hard from the perspective we were not allowed to use feet in fifth, it had to be third. That was quite diffiult to find when you are used to fifth as you instincktively know where it it is, secondly in third I used to get into trouble as me feet were too turned out. However what was special about that class, it was the second class of the evening, and it was the only one I was doing, so I could arrive early. Eneviable my teacher arrived early too and we would both wait in the kitchen diring area of ENB and generally chat. As I was working on some of my own choeography, this teacher would sometimes help me for an extra 5-10 minutes after class and help develop ideas, I remember one week we danced the port de bras with mimed tears together as this was to music called “lover tears” which I had taken in. That moment for me seemed very special, somehow that teacher student relationship had disappeared and we were too dancers or friends possible, dancing together. I think I will remember and treasure that moment for allways.

Mid term I did have the option of moving up to level 3 as I had exchange a lot of email with there head of learning, I didn’t as I has a brilliant relationship with my teacher. However when the level 3 taster came along, I grabbed with both hands, it was my level 1 teacher that conducted it, the rest is history.

 

Coming back to the orignal comment I made about level 3 being evicted to level 4. ENB cant actually do that, but rather than the odd beginner being mis placed at an unappropriate level. I think ENB’s view of our class, is the vast majority have the capability of entering level 4, but just lack the confidence to do so, so we are not taking about the odd person but the majority of the class clogging up the system to allow those in lower grades to move up. I think ENB is just trying to provide the motivation through encouragement which should be seen as a good thing. After all our teacher has really pushed us this last term.

 

For me ENB is my ballet home and castodian of my technique, that is why they are my only non – performing school I belong too now.

 

I think ENB levels equate to

Absolute Beginner: Very very basic but I have no experience of that one.

Level 1: Beginner

Level 2: Beginner + / Improver

Level 3: Intermediate

Level 4: Advanced

Edited by Michelle_Richer
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Dear Mimi

 

I find your comment interesting but totally misleading, as I have done a number of Intermediate level classes with ENB. Northern and The Royal Opera House and never once did we cover fouettés or Brisé, (not familiar with the term Brisee’s), furthermore these were never covered at Pineapples Elementary class either.

 

However Brisé volé was covered a couple of times at my Stamford mixed ability class, where teacher would apply different options on enchainements for dancers different abilities.

 

Fouettés are used at the barre or just off the barre at LAB,

Peterborough did include teaching them in the centre one week but it was never developed, but was used at the barre.

Lincoln now uses them at the barre and is to include them in the centre, that class I regard as a beginner level, possibly improver but no higher.

I have asked ENB to include these; although it has not been refused I know there is some health and safety concerns of the additional space required over and above that of normal pirouettes.

 

Other things I find are not generally taught are Cabriole’s, however I have done these at Pineapple and Stamford, I know the guys have at LAB too. Also Temp de fleche again our teacher at Stamford did add in a sissonne/ temp de fleche combination into an enchainement across the room at my request, although the other dancers moaned about it.

 

I think LAB is the odd one out, if we need that for rep, then it will be taught, whatever it is and properly.

 

Also having done ballet for a very long time does not necessary guarantee anything, there are a number of girls at one of my performing classes that have been there for many years, one of them performing on the same stage for the last 17 years, but most still don’t use proper ballet terms. Just after I started with them, I told some of the girls off when they were using terms like “funny tourney things”, I was reprimanded by the teacher the following week, but at least I had made my point.

 

One point I made in one of my earlier post, it’s not just the depth of knowledge, its breadth too, that why I don’t stick to just one or two classes a week like most. I’m deadly serious about the ballet I do that why I also seek the coverage.

 

Mimi I think I agree with your comment in” Because, it seems most likely that Michelle lives in a parallel universe.... “I don’t think we are in the same league, I see ballet as a preciouses gift, if I see someone struggling or needing help I would gladly give it, and be proud to have been able to help. That why I offered it over the video incident the other day, incidentally we are now joined by a second girl.

 

I certainly would not winge about beginners or those less able entering my class which has become the popular theme recently on this thread, personally I find that extremely selfish.

Edited by Michelle_Richer
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Well I'm sure that applies to me, I do remember on one occasion I went to Northern’s Intermediate/advanced class and we were doing an enchainement across the room, I think we were doing doubles then but I cant be sure, our teacher was at the end observing, I know I go a “GOOD ONE” comment from him. That in itself wasn’t unusual, however later that week I did a rep workshop with Northern and afterwards we got to watch the Northern’s company class work out on Leeds grand theatre stage, it was the same teacher conducting it and he used the same enchainement for the professions, for me that made that comment very special, but I am sure if you had been there you would be looking for his blind dog.

 

I have mentioned this before on this thread but I think it's worth repeating and explaining a bit further. I mentioned that no dancer becomes 'too good' to do tendus (or words to that effect) even if that dancer becomes a professional in a classical company. In other words, no  professional dancer becomes 'too good' or 'too advanced' to do plies. Therefore, just because you (or any other amateur dancer) happens to get the same enchainment as a professional dancer, it doesn't mean that the amateur dancer has produced the same quality of work as the professional. In fact, I would say being able to see why the professionals are producing a higher quality of work (it's not just about leg height), is an indication that an adult dancer has progressed. This is very difficult to put into words, I think you either see it, or you don't.
 
Also, teachers can give out praise such as 'nice' or 'good' but it may not mean your pirouette (for example) is of the same quality as a professional's. A teacher may say 'nice' to a beginner's pirouette, which might have a turned in working leg, but the 'nice' might be used to encourage the dancer to keep working. Or maybe the dancer tried his/her full turn for the first time and the teacher wanted to encourage the dancer to continue working. If the same teacher then gave a company class, and said 'nice' to a dancer there, you can't say the amateur dancer's work is of the same quality/level as the professional's because they both had the comment 'nice'...
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Dear Dancer Sugar Plug

 

I really do love your creative imagination, or do you need perhaps the borrow of my teachers blind dog, as I have never suggested in my post that I compared my pirouette technique to that of the technique of the professionals. I did regard his comment as a complement, it was simply as a professional coach and the fact he used the same enchainement for the professionals gave it a little more significance.

 

Anyway what makes you think I would want to compare my pirouettes to that of the professionals, I would never set my goals so low. Just to qualify that, I have found and had some professional coaching against a piece performed by Bolshio and Kerov which is quite fast and snappy to reflect my defiant character.

However this piece is performed by Bolshio with relative quick tempo doing 5 double en dehors/ arabesque en lair combinations in line as a small but the most challenging part of the enchainement, Kerov use 3 triples and 2 doubles but the ballerina falls off balance but recovers on the finishing triple, but this is done at a more leisurely tempo.

 

My goal is still to use the faster Bolshio tempo and complete all 5 triple combinations seamlessly. My coach is aware this is on the back burner for this winter when my shows are over.

 

Another incident but this time I got bit in the bum. When we did the LAB spring Intensive, I had intended to do 2 of the group solo’s for the end of course performance as everyone else to my knowledge were only doing one. Two of the variations I had done before, plus I had a lot of additional one-to-one coaching to bring them up to scratch. When they were initially taught we only had half an hour per variation, shock horror they were completely different (different companies variations to the one I knew). That was a real downer for me, and I was faced with possibly not doing any. However only one had some similarities which was Aurora’s variation from Act3, I went to see that teacher and she pointed me in the direction of “Lauren Cuthbertson’s” variation of this piece. That at least got me out of trouble even though I had a slow internet link at the travel lodge I was staying at. I was able to just about learn the sequence; however I was constantly fighting against the other variation I knew well and its association with the music. I did perform it at the end of course show, it was probably OK but far short of way I had wanted it. However when I got home, I went though other artists versions of this variation and cam across Margot Fonteyn’s version, it really had sparkle and enthusiasm in it. That is certainly in the rework tray, not to copy any particular artist but to create my own version which will be a hybrid of all three, to reflect my fire and passion as a dancer.

 

The content knit picking the silly comments about my short period in the ballet world is like water off a duck back, I think most of you know that by now, but I do love a good tussle tough, this gal has attitude and ambition and she definitely unstoppable unless my body gives up, as its red lining all the time. You try getting up at 4.30am and back home at 1am the following morning for your ballet, I have two days like that this week with ballet between days including Rep at RAD this Sunday, that's called dedication.

 

Happy dancing, everyone is welcome at my classes including you sweetheart.

Edited by Michelle_Richer
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Well no one is asking you to get up at 4am go to bed at 1am and still get up for class the next day.......that's what you are choosing to do nobody is forcing you!!

 

I personally don't want to try it!! And certainly not on a regular basis as I know this would just lead to exhaustion for me.

 

Let me know when you've perfected the five triple pirouettes sequence .........is that what you meant in your last post? I should certainly like to see this Michelle!!! :)

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Dear Dancer Sugar Plug

 

I really do love your creative imagination, or do you need perhaps the borrow of my teachers blind dog, as I have never suggested in my post that I compared my pirouette technique to that of the technique of the professionals. I did regard his comment as a complement, it was simply as a professional coach and the fact he used the same enchainement for the professionals gave it a little more significance.

 

Anyway what makes you think I would want to compare my pirouettes to that of the professionals, I would never set my goals so low.

 

The content knit picking the silly comments about my short period in the ballet world is like water off a duck back, I think most of you know that by now, but I do love a good tussle tough, this gal has attitude and ambition and she definitely unstoppable unless my body gives up, as its red lining all the time. You try getting up at 4.30am and back home at 1am the following morning for your ballet, I have two days like that this week with ballet between days including Rep at RAD this Sunday, that's called dedication.

 

Happy dancing, everyone is welcome at my classes including you sweetheart.

 

Michelle,

 

Like I said in my last comment, 'You either see it, or you don't'.

 

I am feeling very unwelcome by your comments. You seem to hint that other dancers, like myself, can only be called 'dedicated' if they do the hours of dancing that you do. But there is no point arguing this point here. Although I hope you realise you are putting down other dancers, not just myself, who do as much dancing as they can while fitting in other responsiblities.

 

In my last post I was merely making a point about corrections meaning different things for different levels of dancers, and how difficult it is to describe progression in ballet. Therefore it is difficult for teachers to explain to beginner dancers how/when they will see progress, why professionals still do 'easy' things like tendus in class, the repetitive nature of ballet, etc, which is what this thread has been discussing recently.

 

However, you appear insulted by my passing on of what I have learnt in ballet. Since I can feel the aggression in your last post and since my comments are so unwelcome, I am tempted not to comment on this thread again. I don't like feeling bullied, and you are making me feel this way.

 

I hope no potential posters have been put off contributing on this forum, for fear of being shot down...

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I think Sugar Plum you shouldn't allow yourself to be bullied!! If you stop posting then you become a victim.

 

There are loads of other posters here not just Michelle .....who is obviously suffering from lack of sleep it seems.....so has let her aggression get the better of her in this case!!

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Michelle, your last post does come across as rather passive-aggressive.

 

I don't understand what you mean by this comment: "Anyway what makes you think I would want to compare my pirouettes to that of the professionals, I would never set my goals so low." Could you please explain?

 

I think we are all aware that - by your own admission - you "like a good tussle". However, I did remark previously that Balletcoforum is not a playground or somewhere for you to enjoy an argument.

 

Our Acceptable Use Policy states: "Contributors must be respectful to others." You seem to have trouble respecting attitudes and opinions which differ from yours. Please remember that this thread is for *anyone* to discuss Adults learning Ballet, and that everyone here needs to be respectful, including you.

 

Thanks.

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May I just add a word of caution for any younger students or adults new to ballet who may be reading some of these posts. I very much doubt that some of the steps being aspired to here should even be attempted. These are steps that vocational students and professional dancers would find challenging and as a teacher I feel obligated to flag up the issue of safety to all readers. Obviously there is always the issue of freewill but there is so much that an adult can benefit from through a forum like this so perhaps I will throw in a different angle to stimulate discussion.

 

What step do you do in class which you would really like to get a better handle on or to get some tips as to how you can get to it in class without sighing when you hear it's name mentioned. There is a wealth of knowledge on the forum who I am sure will be able to share helpful tips and there is no such thing as a stupid question. The progressive nature of ballet means that each step has it's value and purpose so there is always so much to learn from each other.

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Hi Lin

That’s exactly what I meant.
Are you likely to be dancing in the LAB show since you are grounded for the next 4 weeks?.
You will be pleased to know as your not now doing the RAD Swan Lake workshop we are doing the ankle cracking Cygnet Dance, I will drop my salsa dancing this week to offset it, although I will still go along for social chit chat Friday evening. I did a presentation for the LAB show at Salsa last Friday to try and get a few more bums on seats, quite a lot of interest as several took the leaflet home, but not sure how many will result in actual bookings, but one can only try.

As for “Well no one is asking you to get up at 4am go to bed at 1am and still get up for class the next day”, this is true, but at the same time I never suggested it was. I was mearly indicating the deep level of my conviction and dedication.

 

Hi Dancer Sugar Plum

Why do you feel bullied?, if any should, then possibly I should, but as I said its like water off a ducks anyway please don't go a I love our exchanges. xx

Edited by Michelle_Richer
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What step do you do in class which you would really like to get a better handle on or to get some tips as to how you can get to it in class without sighing when you hear it's name mentioned. There is a wealth of knowledge on the forum who I am sure will be able to share helpful tips and there is no such thing as a stupid question. The progressive nature of ballet means that each step has it's value and purpose so there is always so much to learn from each other.

 

I hope no one minds but I would like to take the initiative on the one, by suggesting "Grand Jete" from a swish through of the leading leg rather that a developpee.

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