Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi terpsichore

Yes I hope you can make it, it would be lovely to see you there, especially the evening one. Hopefully after the end of the show some of us will get together for a celebratory drink, but I must be off pritty sharpish after that as Im on dress rehearsal at the Angles Theatre the following morning at 10am and its about 30mile drive from home.

 

Yes Im booked at Leeds, had a lovely email from Annemarie our teacher on Friday, Im really looking forward to that in spite of it being a very long day. How fare have you got into the music with your rep for the show, how many phrases?

[Jan McNulty]

Terpsichore has written an article on her blog about copyrights and rights in performance, including filming.  It is an excellent read and provides much food for thought.

 

Here is the link to the article on her blog.

[youngatheart]

Hi,

 

Been reading this thread with dismay!

 

I can genuinely see both sides of this argument. Like Michelle, I find videoing highly beneficial and can totally understand the point she is trying to make (which some seem to have missed amid all the fuss!) that it is the patterning and spacing of the enchainement that is the issue, rather than the actual steps.

 

The latter would only require the filming of a few consenting dancers (or even just one), whereas the former of necessity would require the participation of every single member of the group.

 

However, whatever your personal opinions of the dancers who refused to help, Michelle, (which of course you have every right to hold, just as they have every right not to want to be filmed) I think it was very unwise to post them on a public forum. There are probably many people (including teachers) who read this forum, that either already know you, or may find themselves in a class with you in the future; be careful who you offend today, in case they become reluctant to work with you tomorrow! (BTW to the best of my knowledge I have never met Michelle - I know I would definitely remember her if I had!  )

 

Personally I can't really relate to why some people seem to be so worried about finding themselves on Youtube, especially if unnamed as part of a larger group (and yes, footage of me in a less-than-flattering situation has found its way there on at least one occasion, but I didn't find it that big a deal - just amusing & a bit embarrassing, but so what? I would never have dreamed of asking anyone to remove it; in fact I showed it to my friends and family myself and we laughed about the fact I was now "famous".)

 

However we are all different and everyone has the right to have their own feelings respected. For instance I can completely understand that a serious ballet performer may not want footage of early rehearsals to be made publicly available, as they may only want to be seen dancing at performance standard. A few other possible reasons may be that the person's partner or family would not want them to be filmed in a leotard, that they are embarrassed about their faults/appearance being open to scrutiny (although such a person may be less likely to want to perform in public in the first place?) or simply that they are just a private person and do not want to be part of the current fashion to have it all "out there" on the internet.

 

I do however think that people are being a little harsh to Michelle about her use of the term "recreational" classes. A quick Google search under "adult ballet" will bring up any number of classes described using some or all of the following phrases: "for fitness & fun; relaxed; informal; no pressure; no shows; no exams".

 

Now these will almost certainly not be the kind of classes attended by the majority of people reading this forum, but they most definitely do exist in great numbers, and it is likely that the people who go to them do so because that is the kind of class they want. Michelle is quite correct to say that learning an "enchainement" in such a class, even if practised over a number of weeks, cannot be compared to learning one intended for a public performance or an exam, simply because the pressure for perfection is not there (by design) as this is not the purpose of the class.

 

The quote from Michelle "doing an enchainement for performance takes considerable more time learning and polishing through rehearsals to a far higher standard than a regular class which runs far shorter sequences only once or twice on each side. The requirement to perform as I highly synchronised group is far less intense, and your focus and dependency is now on your own performance as a regular class rather than that as a group" on the other hand appears to me to accurately describe what happens in a serious technique class (such as the one she attends at ENB?) in that the focus is primarily on the individual's technique and performance rather than on group choreography. I do not see why people are interpreting this as derogatory. Technique and repertory are different, but complementary, skills, and a dancer who is serious about wanting to perform needs to be able to master both.

[Terpsichore]

............................   How fare have you got into the music with your rep for the show, how many phrases?

 

I regret that I am unable to tell you how far the class has progressed because I had to miss last Tuesday's class.   I have a commitment at Middlesex University in Hendon on the last Tuesday of every month.

 

However, I have attended the two Thursday classes and I shall be at Leeds for the improvers' class and rehearsal on 6 May 2014 all being well.

 

Have a good weekend.

[aileen]

youngatheart, I think that what most people have objected to is Michelle's characterisation of people who did not want to be filmed as not being serious dancers / not wanting to put on a performance of a high standard / not having a team spirit / selfish etc. And I can tell you that it *is* possible for perfomances of a high standard to be put on without the aid of recording in the rehearsal period. My daughter took part in a fundraising gala for ENB (a shortened version of The Nutcracker) which took place at the London Coliseum last December. The tickets were very expensive as it was hoped to raise a lot of money for ENB, (which they did) and the performance was attended by some members of the Royal family. Around fifteen of ENB's dancers, including three of the principals), danced in the gala as well. The point that I am trying to make is that the ballet school (which is a local school, not a school for which the child has to audition) had to make sure that all the children knew their parts and could dance their parts in their various groups and the school achieved this (and the performance was of a really very high standard) without the school having to make recordings and distribute them to the children. I rather suspect that Michelle's desire for the recordings was in part motivated by the thought that, having seen themselves 'on film', her fellow dancers might be motivated to 'improve' by working harder (although few are likely to go to the trouble and expense of hiring a studio, like Michelle - I imagine that most of her fellow dancers are working or studying and are therefore poor either financially or time-wise). Personally, I would hate to be filmed in this type of situation. At the end of the day, you have to learn your own part and trust that your fellow dancers will learn theirs. It is for the teacher to deal with any students who are struggling for whatever reason. If you can't accept that and can't accept your fellow dancers' views) then you should not be dancing in a corps and should confine yourself to dancing solos. 

[Anna C]

Thanks for posting, Youngatheart.

 

Michelle, your statement "I was so looking forward to playtime on the forum with my friends. Oh shucks, spoil sports, I love playing the bad girl, got my uniform today a Black Swan tutu from JB that should reflect my character." leads me to believe that you like a jolly good debate.

 

However, not everybody does, and trying to provoke people into a response to your posts inevitably leads to frustration and disrespectful posts. The Balletcoforum is not a playground.

 

In my opinion the topic of unapproved filming in class has now become unconstructive. If posters wish that this thread remains open, please discuss other aspects of Adults learning Ballet.

 

Many thanks.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Spanner

I agree it run its course.

 

I did come across something the other day in one of my classes which leave me a little confused, and that's not difficult as most would agree.

 

What is the difference (Arms) between High "V" and Open fifth, only a beginner would ask something so simple.

[Jan McNulty]

Good question Michelle!  There are lots of beginners and non-dancers (like me!) on here who will be interested in the answer.

[bangorballetboy]

Hi Spanner

 

What is the difference (Arms) between High "V" and Open fifth, only a beginner would ask something so simple.

Sounds to me like colloquial terminology that could apply to many things. Neither term is one I've come across in any standard ballet teaching method (though there will always be movements which are not covered by those methods and their terminology) and so I'd say it's probably up to the teacher and his/her description of a position. Any differences are likely to be in the degree of widening of the arms and the straightening of the oval.

[Anna C]

Yes, DD says one of her teachers would use "open fifth" for arms in a high V with the hands turned outwards. :-)

[youngatheart]

Yes, DD says one of her teachers would use "open fifth" for arms in a high V with the hands turned outwards. :-)

 

Yes, this is a description of what I understand as "open 5th" too. "High V" is a term used in modern dance, not in ballet.

[Thecatsmother]

What you describe as arms in a 'high V' in balletic terms is called open fifth but open fifth can also be done with the arms in a curved open position from fifth rather like opening out the the arms from fifth but stopping at the same height as the other open fifth described so palms are facing inwards and arms form a curve. You will always know which to use as it would be specified by a teacher/choreographer.

[alison]

Good question Michelle!  There are lots of beginners and non-dancers (like me!) on here who will be interested in the answer.

 

Not to mention this far-from-beginner (chronologically speaking, at least)!  I've lost track of how long I've been doing adult ballet classes for, but I don't remember ever being given the term "high V" as a specific arm position.  Unless, of course, it's similar to open fifth with the hands turned inwards, or something.

[Fiz]

I have never heard it called that either, Alison. I have been told various non specific terms when I was taught by a Cecchiti teacher but she never used that expression.

[Michelle_Richer]

Wow this was not the response I was expecting about the arm positions, The usage of the term High "V", is used in ENB, LAB and City and extremely common in LAB.

 

My understanding for Open fifth is Fifth en haut with the arms opened out into a V shape with the palms still pointing in/up, equally that V shape could have some rounding but basically the hands are considerably further apart from standard fifth en haut. For High "V" the palms are inverted, facing outwards/down.

 

The reason I ask tis question I inadvertently corrected one of my teachers when she was demonstrating a short enchainement next to me and referred to the arm position as "Open fifth", I automatically said "Don't you mean High V", as the palms were pointing out/downwards. It wasn't me trying to be a smart arse as I think a lot of this teacher as she has been a really good friend. Had we not been next to each other and in eye contact I don't think I would have said anything, it was just spontaneous as she had my complete attention. She teaches RAD and ISTD syllabuses, I was hoping to see a friend of mine in RAD on Thursday and ask her but she was not there this week, hence my question.

 

LAB Gala last year was a sell out and the same thing could well happen this year, it is a little expensive, I personally think its well worth it, there will be some professionals there too for the guest spot.  Had the prices been lower then the dancers would have to pay a performance fee to fund it, as it is providing each dancer can fill approximately 6 seats in the audience, it should be self funding. I personally have three that have already bought their tickets and several possibles.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[Terpsichore]

Missing my class tonight. I have a cracking headache and keep going really hot if I do the slightest thing. Not happy!

 

How disappointing!. You have my commiseration.  Best wishes for a fast recovery.

 

Well I may have to agree to finally stop dancing altogether for at least a month after have seen physio tomorrow.

........................

 

That's disappointing too.  I hope you also make a full and speedy recovery.

 

Michelle_Richer showed me a picture of her and the other members of her class in their tutus which I believe you had taken. Everyone, including Michelle, looked very good in their costumes.

 

I hope your indisposition will not prevent our meeting at the end of May. I am looking forward to making your acquaintance.

 

It was good to see Michelle_Richer in class today. She tempted fate a little by asking all the students at our rehearsal for the Academy's end of term show whether we minded being videoed. Knowing what she thinks of objectors I didn't dare make a squeak although as I see the purpose and advantage of being filmed on this occasion I would have consented anyway.

 

Thanks to Michelle I have now got to know the Tuesday class.

[Fiz]

Thanks, Jane.

[2dancersmum]

Lin and Fiz - hope you are back to dancing soon.

 

Terpischore - She tempted fate a little by asking all the students at our rehearsal for the Academy's end of term show whether we minded being videoed. Knowing what she thinks of objectors I didn't dare make a squeak although as I see the purpose and advantage of being filmed on this occasion I would have consented anyway.

 

I hope she was a least tactful about it. Surely that is the responsibility of the person organising the show/teaching the dance not one of the participants? In my case I would hate to be put on the spot and I hope no-one felt pressure to agree because they 'didn't dare make a squeak'.

[Terpsichore]

I don't think you need worry, 2dancersmum. Remember that we were in Leeds and Yorkshire women are not afraid to express themselves forcefully. There was no pressure and Michelle_Richer consulted our instructor first. She acted perfectly correctly in every respect and we were all glad to see her.

[2dancersmum]

Terpsichore - I thought the question was probably asked amongst friends but from your wording it was not that clear and I am myself a Yorkshire lass, who even lived in Leeds at one point.

 

Fiz - am I correct in thinking you have just recently moved to the area you now live in - quite some distance from where you were before. DH suffers from hayfever and also gets bad headaches from the pollen and he found the first spring/summer after we'd moved worse than normal. He was advised to get some local honey and have a teaspoon a day - sounds strange I know but it helped him considerably when his usual tablets seemed less effective.

[Fiz]

Yes, 2dancersmum, we have moved nearly 150 miles. I will try your idea if it goes on. Thank you!

[Jan McNulty]

 

 

Fiz - am I correct in thinking you have just recently moved to the area you now live in - quite some distance from where you were before. DH suffers from hayfever and also gets bad headaches from the pollen and he found the first spring/summer after we'd moved worse than normal. He was advised to get some local honey and have a teaspoon a day - sounds strange I know but it helped him considerably when his usual tablets seemed less effective.

 

 

Yes, 2dancersmum, we have moved nearly 150 miles. I will try your idea if it goes on. Thank you!

 

I've heard that advice too.  It's a great tip.

[Michelle_Richer]

As Terpsichore said, I was at Northern ballet with her today, although I have missed a couple of weeks of their show sequence, I must say I’m quite impressed with what they have done. For me, today was as much about checking out the feasibility of adding in the two classes at Northern with my existing classes in London on the same day and trialling it. One expensive mistake I made was going to a Leeds high street salon and getting my hair done just before class, silly me I didn’t enquire the price beforehand, it was just over twice the price I pay in my local town, but unfortunately they cannot do it o a Tuesday now, as I leave home at 6.30am for my ballet classes.

 

Although it was very short, I still got a very brief chat with the girls and a coffee before catching my train south, there was just enough time. However there is not enough time to trim off 15minutes at the Studio I hire in Shoreditch, although I didn’t have a session there today as it was already booked for auditions, I’m in it on Thursday this week, never the less I still went there to check timing. I arrived at 4.05pm, its too tight and does not allow me to get changed or set the audio equipment up which only takes a few minutes. So the start time will remain at 4.15pm, the last leg to ENB will be tight, as a result I have pre warned my teachers as they know what I am doing.

 

 

Tonight at ENB was really nice, I managed to get in early and had chat to some of the professional dancers prior to class. Level three class was really nice, I’m sure our teacher wants to evict us up to level 4 by the end of the year as she was extremely complementary this week. Finally got home at 1am (not for the faint hearted).

[Michelle_Richer]

Grades, levels and open adult classes sound like raking over old coals.

 

ENB which I was referred to, I personally do not consider as an open class, firstly in most cases you have to start at level 1 or below to enter the system as higher levels have priority booking for existing student dancers and usually these higher levels are over-subscribed and are seldom available to outsiders. Even when you are in the system you are not guaranteed a place for continuity or progression, you have to compete for it against other pre-existing dancers on a first come first served basis. Some of my friends have lost places as they were slow with their priority booking.

 

As for substantial core of regulars, I would class everyone in ENB adult classes as that core.

 

As for who decides when to move up a level, the student does, but many do seek the advice of their teacher. For me I would make that decision alone, as I have a pretty good idea of what is in my teachers mind, but never the less I don’t really think of it in terms of a promotion. A small number of us do two levels in parallel; if I were to go up to level 4, I would still maintain that strategy of one to underpin the other. However for me going up to level 4, it has a practical difficulty as level 4 is only available on Mondays when I’m otherwise committed.

 

In terms of depth and breadth of learning, I rely mostly on my wide and varied mix of classes rather than a single school, also repertoire is seldom basic especially as I’m not interested in watered down simplified rep, other than due allowances made for the physical limitations of my body, that training is provided by my one-to-one specialist coach.

[DavidW]

When I started ballet I started in a Ballet 101 class at my local dance school, and worked up to a Ballet 201 class (after 7 or 8 months I think?). I then started also taking open adult classes (at basic/beginner level) elsewhere. I've found it a bit trickier more recently - I mainly dance at a local ballet school with a set level class and when I take an adult class elsewhere (i.e. London) I'm never sure what level to take! Part of the problem is lack of consistency across different studios - I've taken "Elementary" classes at one studio that are harder than "Intermediate/Advanced" elsewhere! 

 

Something I noticed with one dance studio (I thought it was the Place in London but can't find the videos on their website!) which I thought was a really great idea was a short video for each of the levels of adult ballet classes. Each video gave a demonstration of a mid-barre exercise (a frappe or fondu exercise I think) followed by a couple of centre exercises (like an adage and petit allegro). This was ideal for helping decide what level of class to take - I could immediately see that, say, intermediate would be too much of a stretch when I got to centre, but elementary would be a nice level where I could cope but still be pushed. 

 

It seemed like a relatively simple idea and was so useful (and made me want to attend that dance studio if not least for their resourcefulness!). Obviously it might be incorrect with cover teachers etc, but it would be so useful to get a preview of a class! 

[Michelle_Richer]

Yes a preview is a good idea, although ENB do not do it in that form, between terms they usually run a couple of taster classes which are available through priority booking to existing dancers contemplating a move up, and with the spare places that are left for dancers from outside. I think LinMM tried one of those, I certainly tried level 3, but I would have moved up anyway.

 

David contrary to your comment about cover teachers, I like that from time to time as it provides a bit more variation in what you learn and sometimes additional movements too which can only be good, so I think breadth sometimes is as important as depth.

[DavidW]

Yes a preview is a good idea, although ENB do not do it in that form, between terms they usually run a couple of taster classes which are available through priority booking to existing dancers contemplating a move up, and with the spare places that are left for dancers from outside. I think LinMM tried one of those, I certainly tried level 3, but I would have moved up anyway.

 

David contrary to your comment about cover teachers, I like that from time to time as it provides a bit more variation in what you learn and sometimes additional movements too which can only be good, so I think breadth sometimes is as important as depth.

That's a great idea from ENB - especially if you are signing up to a course of classes so are committing to multiple classes from the start.

 

And I totally agree that having cover teachers can be great - a variety of teaching styles is very important and I always try to take a range of classes with different teachers whenever possible. I was simply mentioning cover teachers in the context of class difficulty - that what one teacher may consider to be elementary may not line up with the cover teacher's idea of an elementary class (and so a video previewing a class may not be accurate if a cover teacher is taking the class).  

[LinMM]

Yes that sounds a good idea DaveW to have a short video of the levels and you do need to see a bit of centre work practice to really see what is required of you.

Yes I did try ENB level 2 last November and am still waiting for an opportunity to try out the level 3 (but so far has been on a Thursday which is my Spanish night!) as I decided I might be more appropriately placed there........This is also a good idea of ENB to let you try out a level before committing to a full course. It is not quite an open class system though as you do have to pay up front for the course and cannot just "drop in" on it.

 

For me though it's unlikely now that I will commit to an ENB class as if I'm going to have to go up to London regularly once a week I would rather do the LAB repertoire based class.......however I have no qualms about it being "watered down" a bit .......with such a large group of people it would have to be in parts and some of the choreography from the classics is too hard for the average adult amateur dancer to perform satisfactorily.......well from how I see it anyway.

 

Most adult dancers who can have time to do say at least three classes a week will be mixing them up a bit by the very fact of where you live and what's available to attend out there.

Personally I like the mix of a graded class......for discipline and to keep you down to earth about it all......eg: have you achieved Intermediate standard really if you know you would struggle to pass the exam?!!! It's a good guide as to where you are really.

 

But I like trying non graded dancey type classes that may be a bit more of a challenge and classes only a bit graded in that the people attending are very mixed abilities.... maybe another style(for me Russian).

I also love repertoire that I can cope with too.

 

As it happens at the moment no dancing at all for me for 4 weeks minimum!! :(

[aileen]

If the repertoire is not being danced en pointe then it is 'watered down' IMO.

[mimi66]

[...]

As it happens at the moment no dancing at all for me for 4 weeks minimum!! :(

 

Oh, LinMM, I hope you can find a good floor barre class near by.  Can you point your foot without any pain? (though I think you can keep that foot flexed if it hurts pointed).

 

I am thinking about getting a few semi-private sessions... they really work!

Edited May 8, 2014 by mimi66

[LinMM]

Well of course it is watered down if not on pointe ......but even with some rep just using the demi can be a very difficult level still.

 

I don't do pointe work any more anyway so all rep is watered down in that way but some step combinations may still need modifying a bit whether on pointe or not.

 

Mimi it's the other way that hurts for me bending the foot forward so to speak.....as in a plié for example and as you would land from a jump. It doesn't seem to mind being stretched backwards so much though having said that when in "downward dog" position in yoga can't quite get right heel down so is a bit of a limit there but hurts much more bending forwards especially if the weight is on one leg only.

 

Anyway in my spare "piano" room am working on my core strength and flexibility at the moment and also really disecting some port des bras movements to connect with the strength of those from the centre back.

Gosh I do sound a bit of a nut!!

[munchkin16]

You sound dedicated and I should probably follow your example and start stretching and working on my strength

[LinMM]

Well there is one very happy person this week and that is my physio she positively beamed when I said okay I will completely stop for a month then!!

 

She said she had another client who is into running who said yes she had rested her foot that week and then later found out that "resting" her foot meant running 10k instead of 20!!

 

To be honest I haven't understood this injury very well and if I had known and fully understood what I know now I would have completely rested it when it first happened. It is very important with overuse stress type injuries (as opposed to say falling over and sudden wrenching type injury) to rest fully when it first strikes........then you gradually introduce exercise back in. I was trying to do it the other way round .......only fully rest if I absolutely had to but just cut back a bit (the lady and her 10k come to mind!).

This only prolongs the injury otherwise. Live and learn as they say.

 

I must say though that I have been extraordinarily lucky in not ever having had many direct dance injuries so far.....even when I was younger.......just the occasional sprained ankle from landing awkwardly from a jump etc.

 

It is quite nice practising exercises ......not all ballet ones.....at home if you can.....because being alone enables you to really focus on what your body is actually doing and not what you imagine it is!!