Questions about Upper School auditions

[aileen]

I'm curious as to how often complete 'unknowns' (ie non-vocational students who are not in some associate scheme or other) get places in upper schools. I'm talking about UK applicants here. It's obviously different with lower schools.

[Tulip]

There must be quite a few aileen, but I must confess the non vocational students that I know did come from some associate scheme. There is a little dance school that my daughter went to originaly that was fantastic with some very talented dancers. Some of them who didnt do associates went onto musical theatre at the top schools in London. One boy went onto Rambert and is now in a ballet company, thinking on he did not go to any associate schemes and actually joined ballet when he was ten. The dance teachers were a brilliant support to their students at this little dance school.

[Mrs G]

My DS is at vocational school and has been since year 7 . He said at the laine audition a few days ago that very few boys were at full time vocational school.

[BankrollingBallet]

Don't be disheartened dancing10!

DC graduated from Central this summer and I can assure you that not all students come from vocational schools or RB associates. It's a student's potential that is paramount and the school is aware from application forms what level of training a student has already had the benefit of. In the year DC auditioned, there was a 'movement' class with a drummer as well as the ballet class with a pianist so that natural ability/aptitude could be assessed as well as classical training, I'm not sure if that's still the case though.

Students come from all backgrounds all over the world. They are certainly not all from well off families and in my experience it's often the 'middle income' families that struggle most to keep it together financially because there's less in the way of financial support available to them. The school and especially the students (or at least those I've come across) don't give a stuff about the depth of one another's pockets. They admire talent, hard work and personality. They form a close knit group regardless of their previous backgrounds - they're all in it together with the same goals in mind.

Dance may be a business to some but to those training the next generation of professionals it's an art form. What's more it's subsidised to help make sure that the most appropriate candidates get the opportunities rather than the the richest. Of course many of the the most appropriate may have been snapped up long before 6th form if they've been seen but many have not. I personally know several who got their first vocational training at 16 and are now dancing ballet professionally.

[dancing10]

Thankyou BankrollingBallet, feel much more assured by your comments. Am very sad that Tulip feels I was accusing her of having an attitude, all I want is for my daughter and others to feel they are worthy of trying at these auditions .....they work so hard bless them

[Tulip]

Ofcourse all children are worthy to audition anywhere and they All have the same chances as each other. Good luck everyone auditioning, enjoy the experience.

[sarahw]

I suspect the backs of chairs scenario is pretty common. My dd school uses them and is considered high quality. I don't know enough about the finances involved to work out why some schools don't seek their own premises......

 

I'm not saying this is fair but I agree with Tulip that on a practical level the costs of vocational training could be prohibitive if Associates was also. It's unsatisfactory in the extreme. I was going to compare it to tuition fees at Uni but unfortunately for dancers other degree courses (not all) probably give a better chance of a reliable income to pay it back!!

 

Having followed the forum for some time I do not think that Tulip would be discriminatory.

Edited December 12, 2014 by sarahw

[sarahw]

My impression (which may be wrong) is that for the 'best' ballet upper schools (not MT) most will come from vocational school or somewhere that can offer lots (double figure hours) per week.

 

I hope I'm wrong!

[primrose]

Those students on very low incomes who gain MDS awards dont have to pay any fees and sometimes get help with dance uniform. I am not too sure how much help they would get with dada funding. RBS associates offer a scaled bursary to talented students on low incomes. Good teaching at a local school regardless of dance equipment or studio will be an asset to any student.

[Tulip]

Another massive cost which doesn't get mentioned much is auditions for jobs. Travel and flight costs, oh and hotels. Professional photos and DVDs. It's very scary and you hope that there will be a job for them out there after all the years of hard work, commitment and dedication. To count up the amount that gets spent is frightening. But it's best to just get to the auditions, get the offers and then work out what's what. A lot of us have been on this journey and its highs and lows. I'm just lucky to have the forum parents who's children have graduated to ask advice from. Sorry I seem to have digressed from the original topic.

[Tulip]

Sorry I meant auditions into the upper schools

[Nana Lily]

Good luck to DD's auditioning for 6th form for 2015. I could go on about funding for 6th form places, but it will fall on deaf ears. In other European countries 6th form training for ballet is free. We could have a debate about % of GDP spent on health and the arts, but in all cases the UK would come at the low end of the leader board in Europe for both in most instances so I wont bother.

Only a vey small % of students benefit from the current fuding system without massive financial family sacrifices irrespective of family income and therefore nor all children can take up their places. On MDS or those still eligeable for DADA it leaves you skint. If you have more than one gifted child it leaves you.....well lets not go into that, all I can say is I have a friend who has four gifted dancers in her family......Then there is the new DADA system.. well...

 

Only when vocational training is free will places go to the most gifted children irrespective of financial background....only then will the UK nurture its true potentail dance talent. Only then will we truly compete with European schools. The statements put on some schools websites are misleading about "No potential student should be deterred from applying to due to lack of financial means"...they can apply, but they may not be able to accept their place whether they are from a low, middle or upper level family income

[Nana Lily]

Mrs G, well done to your DS, how wonderful that he has done so well and has choices. x

[Lisa O`Brien]

Well my local dance school in Stretford,Manchester was a "holding on to the back of a chair" type. Actually [i won`t name it,even though the teacher died some years ago], the quality of ballet teaching at this dance school was pretty dismal. In local North West competitions our school always came last ,in every dance type. It was quite famous locally for being really bad. I went there for 3 years then when I was 12 my mum allowed me to go to the Northern Ballet School.I had been begging her for about two years. In those days there was still a children`s section of the school. Now my mum[been dead since 1999] was disabled. She contracted TB when she was 21, and there was no cure for it in those days. She had to have one of her lungs removed to stop the TB spreading to the other one as well, or else it would have been curtains for her. She could barely breathe whilst just washing her own hair,let alone be capable of working. The problem was, we were ignorant of what we were entitled to.Nobody told my mum she was entitled to any disability or incapacity benefit. So she was paid the very minimum of social security benefit for herself ,me and my older sister.[My dad died when I was 10]. I remember the exact amount of money we had to live on. It was £36 a week,and Child Benefit was an extra £4.20 a week on top of that. Northern Ballet School fees were £40 a term ,just for one one hour class a week. If you wanted to be entered into an RAD exam you HAD to do the Monday night Coaching Class. Also £40 a term. When I went up to Senior Grade there was not just one class on a Saturday,there were four. Pointe Work, a Masterclass with the Principal,Patricia McDonald, an RAD Syllabus class and something else which I can`t remember. To us,the fees every term were just astronomical. They weren`t really of course. They were not cheap,but only around £120 a term if I remember correctly. But to us,that was a fortune. My mum used to be in tears sometimes ,telling me I wouldn`t be able to go back next term ,as she just wouldn`t have the money. But somehow,someway,for three whole years, she found the money.We both understood the quality of the training was worth every penny,and to become a good dancer you have to have good training,whatever it costs.Somehow we got through the 3 years,then I was able to audition for Full Time ballet school, which meant a grant. Mum used to, when I was about 12 or 13 come to Northern with me and wait for me to finish. A lot of the mothers used to.They would all sit in the canteen and all became quite friendly with each other. I was the only one there who was even remotely serious about dancing. There were two sisters who went because their mother thought ballet was good for their deportment. I remember one little girl used to come in every Saturday wearing a real fur coat. They all seemed to have private tutors and ponies, etc. We lived on benefits on a council estate.!!  Very grateful for the sacrifices my mother made for me. In the end I didn`t even want to become a dancer anymore,but auditioned for Urdang as I had already sent off the forms and photos so I thought why not? But my mum was very proud when she came to Paris [the first and only time in her life she had ever been abroad] and saw me dance at the Moulin Rouge. OK it wasn`t ballet.But I wouldn`t have got in the Moulin if i had stayed at that local dancing school holding on to the back of a chair. It`s tough being poor. Even tougher if your child wants to do something that requires a financial commitment lasting many years.

[Tulip]

Your mum sounds like one amazing lady thequas.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Your mum sounds like one amazing lady thequas.

Yes she was,Tulip. She sacrificed so much so I would have a better life than her.

[dramascientist]

And I think that every one of us wishes the same for our children. It is a nightmare financially but in the cold dark mornings when I get up for work this is why I do it, so my talented children will have the chances I didn't.

[Harwel]

I think that there are very few people who can pursue their dreams or help with their children's dreams without financial worry and sacrifices. I believe it is just one more hurdle to be faced amongst all the others in this desire to become a dancer.

 

It is unfair that a child may not be able to fulfil their potential due to lack of finances. However, there are schemes and awards that help the most talented - yes some children who don't have as much ability may be able to go further because their parents have money but in the end, if they don't have enough talent they will not make a career out of it. It is equally unfair that a talented child, with desire and supportive parents doesn't have the correct leg shape - nothing can help with that! It is desperately unfair that a child has worked their socks off, sacrificed a 'normal' teenage social life and been lucky enough to get one of these highly coveted vocational places only to have a career ending injury. None of it is 'fair' but some things can be overcome and others can't.

 

We follow dreams, we make choices, sometimes the pursuit has to be enough and we have to pick ourselves up and go with the curve ball life has thrown us. No one knows what is around the corner.

 

My son didn't do a weekly associate scheme, the finances of getting there would have been crippling but more importantly, it would not have been fair on a younger sibling who also has a dream and has an equal right to pursue it.

 

I wish everyone good luck on their journey.

[Lildancer96]

My dd was non vocational and didn't attend any ballet associate schemes just a local dance school .She was successful is gaining an upper school place and there are others in her year group in the same position. We know of students who were RBS associates and didn't gain a place - it is not everything - you will be judged on your performance at audition

[Tulip]

Ofcourse there are non associate dancers who have rightly gained a place at upper schools. Just when the question was asked I happen to think of the UK students that where in my daughters year. It seems the ones I know came from associates in London, Birmingham, Leeds and Scotland. I am ONLY talking of that one particular year group. In my daughters year the student come from lots of different countries and all over the UK. It is a lovely year and they all get on so well, very supportive of each other. Central doesn't have any knowledge of a families financial income as we have student loans. All student no matter where they have trained or come from are there because they are all talented. Coming from an associate scheme or a vocational school does not mean that a student is a better dancer than a student who has remained at a good local ballet school.

[Lildancer96]

It's a much fairer system where the school has no awareness of financial situations . It is a shame that all upper schools are not funded in that way. It is not only the students but also the schools that lose out- there are students who cannot afford to attend with dada funding and therefore only have the choice of those institutions providing student finance ; luckily there are some great schools out there that are funded in that way.

[Tulip]

I think a lot of the schools will head this way, converting to a BA Honours so that talented students can get a student loan. There are soooo many extra hidden costs though, top up on the rent, living allowance and dance wear to name a few. The final year is again audition year, the costs of that run alongside the regular cost. This was the original point I was trying to make. You really have to go into this with your eyes wide open. Make sure you know about certain benifits that maybe available to your child. Some get help toward their rent depending on income brackets.

[Tulip]

Just asked my daughter about her year group and associate schemes. I stand corrected there are quite a few who have come from normal dance schools and not gone to associate programmes,one of the girls is the best in our year she is just stunning and lovely with it.

[Katymac]

We have recently been told (& we don't know how true it is) that because DD is entitled to a full DaDA she is unlikely to get one as they could help 3 or 4 children who are entitled to less money  for the same amount

 

I think funding needs a massive overhaul & needs to be fairer - how can it be that a dancer gets their education 'paid for' & a doctor can't and I say that as a mum of a dancer

[taxi4ballet]

Katymac - the DaDa funding providers are obliged to compile a list in order of talent and they start awarding DaDa's at the top of the list and work down it and the funding gets used up bit-by-bit as they go. Obviously there will be some who are high up on the list who are in a high income bracket and won't get any funding, equally there will be others awarded the full amount, or anything in between. The school carries on down the list until the funding 'pot' runs out.

 

At least - that's how it's supposed to work... whether some schools might decide to bend the rules is another matter entirely!!!

[Miracle]

Interesting point. Two schools my DD is applying to have asked us to tick our income bracket before auditioning our child.x

[taxi4ballet]

Same here Miracle. Am I starting to feel slightly cynical? Possibly...

[Katymac]

I know "in theory"

 

But there is just that moment of unease

[2dancersmum]

I would question who told you that Katymac as it could well be another of those rumours that fly around. Taxi4ballet explains how it is supposed to work and I do not think it is necessarily in the schools own interest to offer the places to students lower down the list than ones they think have more potential/talent. I was under the impression that in order to stay on the approved lists for getting the DADA funding in the first place they have to report where the recipients of funding get work/contracts afterwards. And of course the reputation of a school also grows with each graduate's success.

[LinMM]

When I was a school teacher I used to run a ballet club.....entirely free of course .....I was not a trained ballet teacher......and it was in all our spare times.....lunch times after school etc. I did this for about six years. I know this will not be a popular admission on this forum but it was just a school club and this is what I could offer. I took them to the ballet and we did little mini performances at the end of terms to the school .....which the parents loved.....but gosh was it hard work!!

 

We used the bars from the gym frame and occasionally backs of chairs. This was in a very poor area of London.

Just occasionally someone who I could see had real talent would come along to the club.

In this instant I would immediately call in the parent and suggest they start training at a "proper" dance school ......but of course then they would have to pay for the lessons.

One lady just could not afford this for her daughter at the time ....so I did some extra work with her daughter and then she auditioned for Arts Educational which I'm proud to say for the both of us that she got in. This was back in the 1970's

 

This pupil did not become a dancer in the end though.

They did want to know about the parents income but I felt even then that if a child even if less talented but who had wealthier parents would have got in as they could have afforded to pay.

There are burseries and other support out there but only the most talented students would receive them.

 

It's difficult I think at 11 to really know who will most benefit from many years of training so less well off pupils are probably penalised to a degree.

 

With regards to earlier comments about children having to use backs of chairs .....who pay for their lessons .......and usually these are not cheap ....I also think teachers owe it to the kids to try to get proper barres. Perhaps all the parents could club together to help in this sort of situation!!

[aileen]

Some schools use wooden poles which are attached to the walls. I don't suppose that they are very expensive but, of course, the venue has to agree to this.

[Fiz]

They had them in the church hall my dds started off in but when I went back to ballet many years later in the same hall, they had been demounted and we had to use the backs of chairs. It was not enjoyable.

[JulieW]

Some interesting discussions going on but can I please ask that we bring this thread back to just questions (and answers) about upper school auditions. Please do open threads or add to existing ones regarding finances, class set-ups etc. We made this a "sticky" thread so it's easy for people to find answers to the most common questions.

 

Thanks.