British ballet students training abroad

[Fiz]

Where, might we find it, please, Primrose? I'm over the moon the our tiny town has started doing adult ballet again now!

[primrose]

Fiz I am rubbish at ICT, I think it is word press, I just tend to type into google Heather Mcgowan Bolshoi Ballet Blog and then I scroll down to find it. Sorry I couldnt be more helpful.

[Fiz]

Like me! Thanks, Primrose!

[plie]

Nana Lily

My daughter went in August when she was 15 and we chose this school because it is a fantastic school and gave her everything she needs, for example good academics, great campus and fantastic ballet! Obviously it wasn't that easy as she had to get a place but she was offered a place at another school but she would have had to look after herself!

Even though we were paying full fees for the vocational school over here doesn't mean it was easy for us ( £26,000) is a hell of a lot of money after tax) as we also have 2 other children and it was hard and frustrating at times so having a scholarship at Harid is great and makes life easier for us. We would love to see our dd more often but know that she is in the best place for her.

[aileen]

Plie, how did you find out about the ballet schools in the US (there must be so many) and decide which ones to try for? Are scholarships widely available to overseas students? Did you consider ballet schools in any other country?

[plie]

Aileen,I am a ballet teacher and did a lot of research into the schools. There are about 5 really good ones in the states of which Harid is one!

I'm not sure about how many scholarships are available??

I didn't really look into other countries as my daughter desperately wanted to go to the States.

[sophika9899]

Plie, would you mind telling us what the other four good schools in the States are?

[Fiz]

I found it, Primrose - thanks!

[CeliB]

Fascinating thread. Feel I should add my DS to the head count- he is studying in the USA at the Kirov Academy of Washington DC. He's on a 100% artistic scholarship, for board and academics we undertake a means test based on income and outgoings (spending on our other 3 children is included as legitimate outgoings). All in all once we include flights for him back and forth and for us to attend 2 performances a year I think out overall costs are about what they would be if we sent him to White Lodge (of course I don't assume he would get a place!). He was only just 14 when he started at Kirov (last sept- some of you may remember me culling advice from all balletco-ers on what to do!) so it was a real wrench for us to make this decision.

So far we feel it was the right thing for him. He has just done his ballet exam (they don't assess out but I assume the scholarships may vary depending on the outcome) and received an A grade and been offered another 100% artistic scholarship for next year.

He didn't want to apply to White Lodge as he is wedded to Vaganova training (he has tried both). He has had to cope with leaving home and with a completely different academic system, as well as breaking his foot at Christmas (NOT a ballet injury though- a teenage stupidity one!) and despite this I have been astounded by the change in his ability in 6 months. He seems to have physically grown 2 years (not just height but musculature, stature, attitude), his ability to be responsible for himself and his work ethic and commitment are all extraordinary. Above all he is very very happy. Of course it's early days and we have always said to him he is there only because he wants to be- we have never pushed him and have no agenda for him to be a dancer (he's the only one ever in either side of the family) and he knows if he changed his mind we would adapt and sort it out. It's far too early to know how it will all turn out but so far so good.... (he got accepted to RBS seniors summer school despite being under 15 at the time of the SS so they must see some merit in him too).

Anyone interested can see pic of his ballet exam at http://www.paologalli.net/KirovAcademy2011-12/Ballet-Exams/21970748_6sQxMB#!i=1752466366&k=8Zj9Mr6- DS is second from the left... consider he has been FT vocational for effectively 15 weeks (once injury and illness is taken into account) and prior to this he only did 4-6 hours a week....

[aileen]

CeliB, thank you for telling us about your DS. It's very interesting to hear about the financial side of things (and thanks also to plie) because I think that most people assume that ballet training in the US would always be prohibitively expensive and certainly much more expensive than training in the UK.

 

CeliB, I assume that your DS is training in accordance with the Vaganova "method". Are there a lot of different "methods" followed at the ballet schools in the US? Do you know if the vocational schools in the UK all train in roughly the same way?

[CeliB]

_{Unfortunately being a relative newbie to the ballet world I'm not well qualified to answer that question (and I'm sure there are many on this forum who are)- I get the impression that styles of teaching in USA are quite varied- Kirov is the only Russian accredited/affiliated but I believe Harid is Vaganova based as well? SAB has a reputation for being particularly 'Balanchine' (although he was a choeographer not a teacher I think what is meant is a style of training that favours the ability to do Balanchine type choreography).}

_{I get the impression that most UK schools follow RAD syllabus and certainly the Russian teachers I have spoken to are extremely dismissive of this (compared say with Paris Opera teaching which I guess is more akin to Russian).}

_{After conversation with DS and he with his peers, their opinion of RBS is 'very good feet but appalling hands and arms'. His stated experience of UK teachers and style was that the teaching was much 'weaker' (again his words not mine so please don't shout at me ballet people!!!) and less precise. Also combinations were less complex. Can't say much more than that without drifting into unsubstantiated speculation!}

[tomuchtallent]

CeliB

What lovely photos!!You must be very proud.Good luck to him for the future xxx

[Flowerdew]

Celib thank you for posting the link to the photo's of your ds they are lovely and I am glad that he is doing well at the school in the USA, Congratulations on his exam result too! Just thought I would mention that the vocational ballet schools in the UK teach their own method and not just the RAD syllabus. At the schools I am familiar with students take an RAD class once a week with an RAD teacher and at some schools this is an optional extra class (this was the case at the school my dd went to at 16) This seems to have cropped up on a couple of other threads lately with regard to training in the UK and syllabus classes.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Balanchine was both a choreographer and a teacher....he often gave Company class.

 

In the USA very few schools are syllabus based: Cecchetti, RAD, ISTD, etc.

 

In the years I took class my teachers spanned the gamut. My first teacher was a product of two Diagelev principal dancers (Theodore Koslov and Alexandra Baldina - orig. waltz girl in Les Sylphides). Then I had three years of Ceccetti. Continued my studies with a Vaganova based teacher, and on to a teacher who was a student of Eugene Loring, a German teacher, several principals from Balanchine's NYCB, a couple of teachers from ABT, two from the Royal Ballet (Keith Martin and Elaine Thomas), etc.

 

It was quite a variety. I loved it.

[aileen]

I'd still love to hear from anyone else who knows of someone who has trained/is training abroad, particularly in Europe.

[afab]

Aileen, both my DDs are training in France. What would you like to know?

[JulieW]

I hope that this topic will not overlap too much with previous topics, but I would be very interested to hear about the experiences of British ballet students training abroad. I think that it takes real guts to do this as there must be so many "lows" in training for a career in ballet. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone whose child has studied or is studying abroad. How hard was it to get into the school? Did s/he get funding and, if so, from where? How did the training compare with training in the UK and did s/he enjoy the "lifestyle" at the school? Finally, did s/he find a ballet job on graduation and, if so, where? Did s/he return to the UK?

 

afab - this is the orginal post.....

[alison]

To me, Brits in general are not comfortable with the idea of working/training abroad and one of the reasons is language. We see London and other cities full of foreign students doing all sorts of jobs during the summer holidays just to brush up their language skills but this is not the case on the continent with British students.

 

Just caught up with this thread. You're probably quite right about the language issue (actually, I think even I would balk at having to move to Russia and get to grips with the Cyrillic alphabet for dance training - were I young and good enough!), but if you turn that round another way, English having become the lingua franca internationally, I imagine a lot of dancers from other countries *are* moving in the opposite direction and coming to the UK, either because they are native speakers and so there's no language barrier, or because it's the foreign language they've learned at school and they're comfortable in it, and don't need to start learning another one. That's not always the case, of course, and we hear of numerous dancers of the "couldn't speak a word of English when I arrived in the UK" type, but I imagine it must be a fairly important factor in where to study.

[aileen]

Afab, I'd be really interested to hear about your daughters' training in France. When did they start and how does the training compare to the training in the UK? You don't have to tell us which school(s) your daughters are training at if you don't want to.

[afab]

Well her we go, it could be long!

First I should say that our kids have dual citizenship (French & British) and are fluent in both languages which, of course, help them adapt to both countries.

I know more of the training in France as we have lived here for a while now and what I know of the UK training is through Summer schools, auditions and watching classes...

We have 3 DDs, aged 9, 12 and 14. The 2 eldest are extremely keen dancers and both want to become professionals, one in Ballet and the other one as a Musical artist. The youngest is still undecided and dances mainly for the pleasure but having said that, she insists on finding the best level possible for her age...

 

For the last 4 years, they all danced in a vocational school which they left in November because the level had gone down drastically and they joined a local school where they have progressed amazingly.

 

In that vocational school, the eldest used to dance about 14 hours a week, mainly ballet, 2 classes of contemporary and 1 of character. The middle one about 11 hours, also mainly ballet with 1 contemporary and 1 caracter classes. And the youngest used to dance 6 hours a week still mainly ballet with 1 contemporary class. All 3 also had 1 hour of History of dance a week and compulsory shows to go and see...

 

Most vocational schools will work this way in France with a variation of hours of teaching.

 

In the local school which they have joined, they dance a bit less but the teaching being so much better, the progress is impressive. Unfortunately, as much as the 2 new teachers are fantastic, everybody knows that the 2 eldest will outgrow the school rather quickly and that we had to find another school in the near future.

 

Our DDs did and are still auditioning for different vocational schools in the UK and in France and maybe that's where my knowledge of some of both countries vocational schools can be useful to the forum.

 

In France, apart from POB which works like RBS, vocational schools are only dance schools and they have an agreement with academic schools (private or state schools) so that the children go to academic school only half the day. You get in those academic schools only if you have been taken in by the vocational schools and your academic level must be high to be able to cope with doing the whole yearly programme in about half the time. The kids can also be home schooled through a national programme for home schooling and again to be allowed to do that, you have to be in a vocational school. State vocational schools are free and so are the state schools attached to them so the question of funding is not really relevant here. POB is free for everybody except for the cost of compulsory canteen (50€ a month) or boarding when necessary (around 500€ a month).

 

Some vocational schools are private but the cost is nothing compared to the UK. The 2 best ballet ones in Paris cost between 2400 & 3300€ a year.

Of course, the problem of boarding is really acute as you have to find a host family or a boarding house if you live too far for the kids to travel to school and the children also have to go between academic school and vocational school on their own at lunchtime... But they often do that as a group so it doesn't tend to be a problem. Every region has at least one state vocational school (not all of them of high level but they can spot potential and send the children to higher level ones).

 

 

Apart from POB and if I only take Paris, you have the choice of 3 private vocational schools and 2 state ones. One of the state ones is from the age of 14 and the next best school after POB to become a ballerina.

 

Another difference between the 2 countries is that vocational level and academic level are completely separate here. The children have a certain level in dance and can have a different level at school. It means that they are put in their real dance level and not in their age group (within limits of course). In my second DD's dance class (she is 12), you can find kids who are 13 or 11 depending on their dance level. So because she's a year ahead at academic school, doesn't mean she has to dance with kids who are much older than her or worse be turned down because she hasn't reached a dance level which doesn't correspond to her body capacity.

 

Going back to our DDs and our family experience...

Our eldest auditioned at Tring for their Performance Foundation course (4th form) and was successful but didn't get a scholarship which through a spanner in the works as it costs around £27000 a year. She also auditioned in Paris for a similar course costing 4200€ a year in THE Musical Theatre school. What decide us not to take up the Tring place was the amount of hours offered. In Tring she would have had 6 hours of dancing (1&1/2 hours of ballet), 6 hours of theatre and 6 hours of singing a week. In Paris, she will do 15 hours of dancing (7 hours of ballet), singing, theatre and musical theatre for a total of 20 hours a week. For a kid who has been dancing ballet for most of her life, going down to 1 class a week was unthinkable especially since the post 16 school like Northern Ballet School, which she has an eye on, auditions only on Ballet...

 

Our middle one is definitely a ballet dancer. She got a place at RBS Summer school for this summer and is waiting to hear about RBS MA... She will be auditioning for POB in May. She successfully auditioned at Tring for their Junior Dance course but even though she is British couldn't get a MdS as she has not been a resident for the last 2 years. There again, the number of pure ballet that Tring had to offer was lower than the good French vocational schools. She has been accepted in, some say, the best private vocational school in Paris and, if she takes the place, will do more ballet than Tring was going to offer plus Jazz & contemporary. Some other vocational school only offers ballet and then one does about 15 hours of it a week.

When my 2 daughters auditioned on different dates, I had lots of hours of waiting and I did see a good amount of ballet classes in the big studio with a glass partition in Tring. I have to add that I used to dance and I have seen many hours of ballet classes in my life. And what I saw disturbed me... The small kids were quite good given their age but the post 16 ones were another story. There were some outstanding ones but it wasn't the norm, what disturbed me were the things that weren't corrected and maybe it was too late to correct them. The non closed 5th position for example at that age and in a vocational school is simply not acceptable for me! I know Tring might not be a ballet specialist school but still and given the price of tuition, it worried me...

 

It made sense for us, at least for the moment, for them to keep on dancing in France. It made sense financially but also for dancing. We had our eye on the Northern Ballet in Leeds for a while because it seems like a wonderful school which works much more like French vocational schools do but we decided it was too far for us!

 

We also considered going back to the UK and going to "normal" dance schools but decided against it as I was reading mainly on the forum how kids have to go to different schools to get to a respectable numer of hours plus Associate classes and it really seems like very very hard work for everyone in the family.

But the final nail in the coffin for us was the RAD or ISTD "monopoly"... I don't want to upset anyone here so bear with me. I know and agree on the importance of having exams and our children always have exam at the end of the year to be able to go to the next level. You either pass or fail. If you fail, you stay in the same level. The exams are in front of a an unknown panel and it gets you used to auditions. The difference is that those exams are prepared in the last month of the school year and one don't spend weeks preparing. They consist of a class and a variation generally. The rest of the year is syllabus free and you're supposed to have reach a certain level through these free classes which shows on exam day...

 

We were very nicely invited to sit through different classes at Tring Associates which is RAD orientated and that's what made us decide against going there even though the girls had already been accepted. The dance was so rigid and stilted even though the teachers were lovely, they had to do the same exercices every week in order to master them for the exam and that was in February when the exams are much later I think. I couldn't see any room for expressing yourself, musicality, trying new and difficult things, etc... The levels too were off for us. Our 12 years old was above the level of the 14 years old there and our 9 years old would have been just under what the 12 years old could do there. It was very worrying for us since Tring Associates was our best hope for not having to drive all over the South East of the UK in search of good classes...

 

So France it is then for the time being! As a UK dance teacher said to me once "you have wonderful dance schools in France and Italy for the ages of your kids but not much after A level when we have wonderful schools. Wait until they are 16 before you come back to the UK"...

 

I hesitated before writing all of that because I don't want to start a new Franco-British war so please don't get upset because of our family's conclusions. They're only our own...

[Pas de Quatre]

I danced professionally as a ballet dancer in France, and although that was some time ago I try to keep up with what is happening there. Also I have had personal experience of Tring (my dd was there for a time), and I have to agree with afab.

[tomuchtallent]

Thanks for being honest afab.

[Fiz]

Non -closed fifth! That must be sixth and there isn't one!

[aileen]

Afab, no-one's going to start a Franco-British ballet school war! I asked for your opinion and I appreciate the trouble you have taken in posting on this topic in such detail. I was particularly struck by two things which could not be said to be subjective opinion: the intensity of the training (number of hours of ballet each week) and the low costs (sometimes free) of training. Really interesting to hear from you. Thank you.

[afab]

"Non -closed fifth! That must be sixth and there isn't one!"

 

What do you mean Fiz? If this is humour, I'm afraid I missed it... Sorry...

 

A non- closed 5th is when the outsides of the feet don't touch...Maybe I wasn't clear... as for a 6th... They do exist and I don't think only on the continent!

Edited March 28, 2012 by afab

[Anna C]

Or it could be what my dd's local teacher calls "thirdy-fifth", i.e. halfway between third and fifth, when a student is having trouble turning out - or maintaining turnout, so the fifth starts to slip back into third. :-)

[dancemad]

Hi afab

 

Yes 6th is the term used for parallel first position (as if standing). In France you also have a 7th which is basically 4th position en pointe.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write your post. It is very interesting.

[afab]

Exactly spannerandpony and dancemad! And thank you...

[dancedizzy]

I agree totally with afab regarding Tring. I had 2 daughters there, one on junior dance course and one on senior dance course,theyre both ballet dancers and were on funded places. We gave them up after 3 and 2 yrs respectively due to lack of classical training! My youngest is now has a funded place at the Northern Ballet School Leeds and the training is fantastic. My eldest is studying for a BA in Classical Ballet and has never looked back!

[Anna C]

I would point out that equally, there are people whose dancing children have been very happy at Tring. I am not one of them - my dd is not at Vocational School, nor does she dance at Tring. Just trying to promote a balanced viewpoint. :-)

[afab]

I am very convinced that Tring is a wonderful place to study at. Kids are very well looked after both in the vocational and academic sections. It's the level of ballet of some of the students that I found worrying when the idea is to get into a very good school after...

[Anjuli_Bai]

From AFAB's post:

 

"But the final nail in the coffin for us was the RAD or ISTD "monopoly"... I don't want to upset anyone here so bear with me. I know and agree on the importance of having exams and our children always have exam at the end of the year to be able to go to the next level. You either pass or fail. If you fail, you stay in the same level. The exams are in front of a an unknown panel and it gets you used to auditions. The difference is that those exams are prepared in the last month of the school year and one don't spend weeks preparing. They consist of a class and a variation generally. The rest of the year is syllabus free and you're supposed to have reach a certain level through these free classes which shows on exam day...

 

We were very nicely invited to sit through different classes at Tring Associates which is RAD orientated and that's what made us decide against going there even though the girls had already been accepted. The dance was so rigid and stilted even though the teachers were lovely, they had to do the same exercices every week in order to master them for the exam and that was in February when the exams are much later I think. I couldn't see any room for expressing yourself, musicality, trying new and difficult things, etc... "

 

This has always been my view about syllabus classes - she expressed it much better than I.

[aileen]

Spannerandpony, we should let afab express her opinion, which is particularly interesting because she is familiar with ballet schools abroad. I think that we would all accept that the schools have different curriculae and different strengths which in turn suit different children. I don't think, for example, that anyone would go to the RBS or ENBS if they were very interested in contemporary dance or musical theatre. Tring's selling point is that it trains in a range of performance skills; they do not narrowly focus on classical ballet.