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The process of learning in adult ballet


Thecatsmother

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I would never advocate anything like splits - or even close - before class.  However, there are other benign things one can do - passive warm up:

 

Rotating the ankles, pointing and flexing feet, gentle head roll, some port de bras, relaxing forward through the body and testing out the body's balance point for the day, stepping back in parallel to gently open the calves.

 

Ballet class properly conceived and properly executed will warm the body for the demands made upon it.  Real stretching occurs, for me, between barre and centre - with a wind down stretch afterwards.

Legeleven comment about "competitive stretching" in very true and very real at almost every ballet class I attend. However there is little in the form of tangle exercises for adult ballet dancers, I guess I was hoping for better.

 

Anjuli' response : Although I value her guidance, given sort of examples that occur in a normal intermediate barre sequence anyway, such as ankle rotation etc, port de bras, is not particularly helpful other than stating the obvious.

 

It seems that I have to devise my own warm-up sequence as a roll model as there is little coming forward when its time to stand up and be counted.

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How long is your warm up then Michelle? Not too long I hope.....don't want to be exhausted before even get going!!

 

I suppose I think a warm up is just that...a warm up! Not an end in itself......as it can turn into!

 

It should be brief and mainly to loosen up the joints of the feet and spine. Some say on this thread about some aerobic practice first....I probably get this walking/running to and from bus stops most of the time!

 

I go to do a ballet class and don't want to spend ages warming up I'll be pretty warm by about the third or fourth exercise anyway. And the barre itself acts as a warm up for the Centre practice!

 

By the way what are tangle exercises? They sound intriguing :)

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I think everyone has different needs for warm up so there is no correct way to do this and needs to be adapted to your own body. People also need different things at different times according to perhaps where they are experiencing stiffness and the nature of what they are warming up for. A beginners level class is likely to be fairly basic but foot strengthening exercises are always useful at this level along with gentle stretches.

I have never had a set warm up even during my professional career. It just involves listening to your body and preparing for what it needs. If you are about to begin barre in many respects this serves as part of the warm up for class anyway.

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Legeleven comment about "competitive stretching" in very true and very real at almost every ballet class I attend. However there is little in the form of tangle exercises for adult ballet dancers, I guess I was hoping for better.

 

Anjuli' response : Although I value her guidance, given sort of examples that occur in a normal intermediate barre sequence anyway, such as ankle rotation etc, port de bras, is not particularly helpful other than stating the obvious.

 

It seems that I have to devise my own warm-up sequence as a roll model as there is little coming forward when its time to stand up and be counted.

 

 

Forsooth!  I am unmasked! 

 

Now everyone can plainly see I am "not particularly  helpful other than stating the obvious." .

 

As for your statement:  "I value her guidance" -  Any guidance of mine which you may have found helpful was unintended and accidental, I assure you. I wouldn't presume.

 

As this is the third time you have addressed my posts negatively - please do me the kindness of ignoring my responses.

 

However,  as you have described yourself as a "role model" - I will learn from you. 

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Legeleven comment about "competitive stretching" in very true and very real at almost every ballet class I attend. However there is little in the form of tangle exercises for adult ballet dancers, I guess I was hoping for better.Anjuli' response : Although I value her guidance, given sort of examples that occur in a normal intermediate barre sequence anyway, such as ankle rotation etc, port de bras, is not particularly helpful other than stating the obvious.It seems that I have to devise my own warm-up sequence as a roll model as there is little coming forward when its time to stand up and be counted.

Michelle, that is really rather rude. Anjuli's response was indeed helpful, particularly to other people reading this thread who may not have been given a warm-up sequence by their teacher. In my opinion, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated and we should all value the *expert* advice given on this forum by Anjuli and our other wonderful, knowledgeable teachers.

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I'd just like to take the opportunity to say thank you for the excellent advice given to me on here and especially to anjuli for her excellent pieces about pirouettes and adult ballet. I appreciate all the teachers (and others) have taken time out to do this as I am not a student of theirs and they are under no obligation to do so, nor are they receiving any recompense for their time.

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Oh woops, I am really sorry Anjuli my post was never intended in a derogatory way so I must sincerely apologise for my clumsiness. I like others on the forum do regard you as the expert in this field and I gladly acknowledge that. So please please accept my sincere apology.

 

Lin: I take you point about walking to class. I have a long walk about 15 minutes from South Kensington tube station to ENB, even when brisk; I can’t say I’m wiping the sweat of my brow. Also I usually arrive about an hour before hand mainly because I socialise with others there and it also give me the opportunity to chat with the teacher’s if they are there. The chat is both social and about stuff I’m working on, that generally is way outside the terms of reference of what is being taught in class, which has always been met with enthusiasm and lots of wonderful help, it often extends after class too.

 

Lin I only have two classes that specifically do a warm-up prior to barre. It only lasts for 5 minutes or so. We all form a circle and use combinations of gallops, skips, trots, walks back leg flips below the knee (sorry cant remember the name), also arm swings and port de bras is added in too. The exercise is vigorous so you get well warmed up, arteries opened core and extremities gain flexibility. At the end of barre work, formal stretching take place using the barre, conducted by the teacher and not left to the student dancers do there own thing. Cool down stretching takes place on the floor at the end of class just before reverence, again under the guidance of the teacher. To me these classes appear to have the right structured approach, it just makes good sense.

 

In terms of tangible movement/ benefit, as mentioned earlier, after warm-up and a splits stretch I know personally my leg extension height will increase by about six inches. I have never performed the same measurement assuming only doing normal barre work up to doing a grant battement or high developpé, perhaps there will be no difference but I suspect there is.

 

I have come across something called a froggy stretch from my Body Balance classes,  I think my have some merit in helping gain turnout. It’s like an inverted butterfly stretch, as a butterfly stretch is a well known turnout stretch but in this the legs are open. I know I can certainly feel it in the hips far more than that of a butterfly stretch.

 

I know flexing and rotating the foot was mentioned which helps turn-out but I do question if the rotated position should be held for a period of seconds for it to be effective rather than there momentarily, which has been the case in all my classes.

 

Arch stretching is something I have never seen taught in class, only by watching others doing there own thing, particularly some of the girls at the ROH classes. We are all told the importance of pointing our feet as BEGINNERS but not given the techniques necessary to get that almost perfect straight line which involve aching the foot as well as turnout.

 

Almost all the movements we do involves our ankles, I am surprised that a repetition of relevé’s are not used to warm up the ankle joint as well as strengthen them as part of a pre class warm-up.

 

To EVERYONE: I would just like to clarify my own position. I come from a professional background where it has been essential to quantify things with precision rather than use woolly terms in order to be efficient. That’s the mindset I bring with me, weather it fits this culture or not. Its never my intention to insult anyone here or make purposely derogatory remarks about them, however I do love to debate various topics with our members often taking opposing views, but that’s what life is all about, sharing knowledge and challenging ideas. I have always regarded the members of this forum as my friends as I have known several for quite a while now, almost like family in some ways. I guess families fall out too, mine does.

As a BEGGINER I probably commit as many hours to ballet and related fitness (including travel) as one would do to a full time job, but I guess many here will always regard me as a BEGINNER, hey ho I can live with that. But never regard me as a 1 hour a week just to get me out of the house and then go back to my knitting.

I can say I have never had a teacher say to me when I have approached them for advice on a movement or combination outside of what we were doing in class, “you cant do that your only a beginner”, on the contrary, they are usually full of enthusiasm to help and often we do the movement together after class.  One teacher added my combination to the following weeks class, for work across the room, it was the Sissone / temps de fliéche combination from RB first variation in Swan Lake Act 1, however I did get a moan from the girls in spite of it being labelled as an Intermediate / advanced class (not my works but on their website). I also note the Temps de fliéche had been dropped in spite of the sissone remaining in the ENB version of Swan Lake, was it too hard for them? But what do I know I ONLY A BEGINNER.

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Derek Deane choreographed the ENB "in the round" production of Swan Lake; the RB's production uses Petipa and Ivanov's choreography with additional choreo from Ashton and yet more by David Bintley. Perhaps Derek Deane didn't like the temps de flieche or perhaps as a sequence it didn't translate as well in a large space. Perhaps he was wanting to put an original stamp on the production so didn't want to copy Marius Petipa and Lev Ivanov's choreography. Whatever the reason I cannot for one minute imagine that it was because it was "too hard".

 

Yes, we sometimes have opposing views on this forum, but as a rule we are not rude and disrespectful, whether consciously or unwittingly done. As you are so fond of precision, perhaps it might be prudent to re-read your posts before you press "post"? I always find that a wise strategy as sometimes things do not translate in writing exactly as we meant them.

 

I think we all understand how important your dancing is to you, and how much time you spend on it. However, you did ask about stretching so then to dismiss the advice you were given by experienced, *professionally trained* teachers and ex-dancers was strange. Even Principal Dancers get corrections from their teachers, and take the corrections on board, with grace and humility. Nobody should ever stop learning from other people - especially in ballet.

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Spanner - I've just posted something similar about the choreography on the ENB Swan Lake thread!  Two minds, one thought!

 

You've only got to search on You-tube for, for example, Don Q PDD and watch a few to see that every one is different to a greater or lesser extent.  And they all say they are "after Petipa".

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Which brings us, I think, back to the original concept of this thread - the learning process of adults in ballet class.

 

Michelle mentioned above:

 

"I come from a professional background where it has been essential to quantify things with precision rather than use woolly terms in order to be efficient."

 

I thnk it takes both "wooliness" as well as precision to teach and learn.  Certainly finding one's point of balance consistent with correct ballet technique (as opposed to balaning incorrectly -which is possible) is a precise thing.  But dance is also an art form -it is also wooly.   That's why we go to see various interpretations of Giselle.  Ballet is a mixture of both - the precision of the corps de ballet in La Bayadere - the swooning heart break of Odette.  When those attributes come together we are its willing audience.

 

Most of us are somewhere on the graph twixt wooliness and precision - fewer of us at the edges.  We are moved by both.  A dancer is both - the precision once learned allows for the wooliness - the artistry, if you will.  A diet of unwooly precision, for me, would be sterile. 

 

I am used to living with precision - my husband of 51 yrs (and counting) is an electrical engineer. I see nuance where he sees chasms.  He sees a huge technical difference between a bank and a savings and loan institution- I see both  as simply a place to put my money.  But, I've learned that if I take on board some of his precision I can save myself a bit of trouble.  He's learned to enjoy the nuances of Giselle's heartbreak. 

 

And this is how, in my opinion, ballet is taught to adults - and children.  The teacher should be able to individualize the concepts of precision to help the student find his/her individual point of balance (which is different for each of us so how precise is that anyway?) and then wrap it in the wooliness - the emotion - of dance.

 

Some students respond more to one (precision) than the other (wooliness) - but neither can be neglected if the end object is an art form called dance.  And should we reject one or the other - we rob ourselves of the other half.

 

So, read a very interesting book by Kenneth Laws "The Physics of Dance" and then watch your favorite dance DVD.  I bet that at some point in watching that DVD you will forget about the physics - or precision - involved and find yourself feely wooly.

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Beautifully put Anjuli.   And struck a chord as have just watched Nerina dance La Fille 2nd day in a row with ds who himself had tears of emotion as he said that "that's how Ashton should be danced..."     The dancers conveyed such joy and musicality that we quite forgot the film was 50 years old and in black  and white!

 

I have seen students taught with so much precision that any artistry is drilled out. Also tricksy, gymnastic displays, whilst impressive are not what I perceive as dance.

 

So totally agree with Anjulis following comment;

 

"And this is how, in my opinion, ballet is taught to adults - and children.  The teacher should be able to individualize the concepts of precision to help the student find his/her individual point of balance (which is different for each of us so how precise is that anyway?) and then wrap it in the wooliness - the emotion - of dance."

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And I totally agree with Hfbrew's comment:

 

"The dancers conveyed such joy and musicality that we quite forgot the film was 50 years old and in black  and white!"

 

When I look at video of dancers of the past, I see a sweetness and a communication of  joy that I don't see today.   To watch Fonteyn as Aurora and see a smile grow across her face is to share the moment with her.  Her smile was not the static smile seen too  often today born of tension and intensity.  It's just too sterile for me. 

 

And, so, I further agree with Hfbrew's comment:

 

"I have seen students taught with so much precision that any artistry is drilled out. Also tricksy, gymnastic displays, whilst impressive are not what I perceive as dance."

 

And, that's what I wanted to pass on to students - ii's an art form - it can't all be quantified.  It's not about perfect 5th positions or perfect splits or flat turnout. 

 

Now the problem we might want to address in this thread (or another) is how to do that?  How does someone teach something as ephemeral as a living smile? 

 

or joy? 

 

or a broken heart born of a broken promise?

 

or a grand jeté that is an expression of rebirth (rather than just a split in the air)?

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Don't know Anjuli. Can this be taught in fact? Most emotional expression comes from that connection within in response to the music. That joyful jete a connection to the pure joy of that movement itself. Sometimes the joy/exhilaration can be lost in the attempts to perfect the movement. And of course that attempt at perfection is also part of the classical tradition. So, I suppose a good teacher has to impart their knowledge of the mechanics to perfect it all but draw attention to the music and the students relationship to this as part of their own individual expression of the technique allowing this to come through. But it's the atmosphere of allowing that's important....that's all a teacher can do I think....that inner connection probably cannot be taught....the individual has to find this for themselves.

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Have been thinking about how that inner connection is usually apparent in early childhood - the infants face that comes to life at the sign of music !

It can be cultivated by playing music in the home and singing , but there are undoubtedly some children who just have to dance in response !

Though it may be genetic , there is a cultural aspect - the African Community choirs that have to move whilst singing .....it's rare to find someone that does not do so naturally .

 

I have a DS who can't keep still in a concert - even a classical one - which is highly embarrassing - and has to dance when playing his violin , so it is hard to imagine that joy being driven from him , but I can see that happening to others as they get older and are so concentrated on the dance itself and not the meaning of it !

That joy of performing and expressing the music is also evident in a couple of biographies of famous dancers I've been reading - describing being taken over by the music and thereby giving an outstanding performance !

 

I do believe it can be cultivated if there is a spark present , and its infectious !

Perhaps "caught , not taught "

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Sorry for the extra post !

I ran out of time to say what this has to do with Adults learning ballet -

I used to dance in my childhood 40 years ago , and watching my boys learn has made me think and feel those distant memories as I try to help them learn steps and sequences , and watch them perform and cringe , criticise or stand amazed all at once , from the side lines ......

I realise that in my brain and heart and soul I think I can still fly when I hear the music , and my muscles remember the moves , but the boys just laugh at the results if I actually try to demonstrate ...they find it hard to imagine me in ballet shoes .

If only I had the time to go back to classes again - it might get me back into shape !

I have certainly realised where they get their love of expressing themselves through dancing from - Just a shame i can only look on and not join in !

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Go back! I did. It was only the lack of adult classes round here that stopped me doing it much sooner. I can't plie as deeply or do such high battements any more but I still love it and I have been told by three different teachers that I have good technique. If you want to do it, there will be a way, because I am proof of that ;)

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Actually just seen you are in Worthing!

 

You could access the Ballet Collective team of teachers.

 

I go their Saturday morning class in Portslade just off the main coast road in a huge studio with properly sprung floor etc! When I can.....am away this weekend but will be there hopefully on the 6th July. It's from 12-1.30 and is hugely enjoyable with a large range of abilities.....though it is at intermediate with some bits of advanced in....level.

 

What is impressive is that the teachers not taking the class that day all do the class instead and they are a lovely lot.

 

As you are in Worthing they also do a class there on Thursdays.....same team....not sure where this is though and have never been to that one. Will look up website for you. I hope when you get a mo you will go back I'm like Fiz I did too after a very long gap and am in my sixties!!! :)

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Another thing...

These classes are UNBELIEVABLY GOOD VALUE at just £6 per class for 1 and 1/2 hours!!

 

As you have done ballet before you could adapt some of more difficult exercises as others do (I never do brisees for example) and you could always start with just the barre etc. It is drop in so anyone is welcome when they can make it and so on.

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Definitely go back, it's good for the soul as well as the body! There are a few ladies in their 60s who are regulars at my classes and they are lovely dancers. When I started dancing again it really was like something had been missing from my life and I can't imagine ever giving up again, not the most musical or technically proficient person but hey what does that matter!

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Well there's a thought ! Ballet classes .....hmm ....

Not just yet though I turn 50 next month so better not leave it too long ......

Sadly I have to work 9-6 mon - Friday and some Saturdays with alternate Thursdays off !

Time is very short with 2 young boys ....2 years ago I went back to 'Cello lessons after a 30 year break and loved it , but have had to stop whist doing the audition circuit with older DS and getting up to the London JA's every saturday .

I needed to focus all my attention on him and there was just not enough time to practice - at that level it needs an hour a day at least and I just don't have that much time !

 

Come september with one boy at Elmhurst so I can focus on the other one ( who is on the autistic spectrum) and perhaps a little more time for myself ......though I will still have to work long hours to meet my contribution to the MDS award !

I suppose if the classes were in Worthing I might get there on my fortnightly thursdays off when not at the dentist etc.

Are they weekend classes I wonder certainly 6th July is a Saturday - but we are off to Birmingham for the induction day on the 6th that's how I remember its a Saturday.

 

There is of course another issue - I had to stop ballet when 16 as I tore my Achilles' tendon badly and I'm not sure it will stand the strain ! Then there's the mildly arthritic neck and hip - a little exercise does me good , but not sure about ballet ?

 

Well thanks everyone for the inspiration , that's one more thing to add to my wish list for the years to come !

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Hi Anjuli

Thank you for quotation me in post 45, however in the context of my meaning, this was to address my comments in post 19 parra 2 regarding cold pre-barre stretching, commonly seen in most ballet schools I attend.

 

I also suggested possible examples in post 42: parra’s 4, 5, 6 and 7 which fell on stony ground, but never mind I'm still chasing that one with Finis Jhung and Lisa Howell, I have already has a response from Finis, still waiting on Lisa though and getting other opinions too. So reluctantly I think we should close that one.

 

As for your comment

"I think it takes both "wooliness" as well as precision to teach and learn. Certainly finding one's point of balance consistent with correct ballet technique (as opposed to balaning incorrectly -which is possible) is a precise thing. But dance is also an art form -it is also wooly. That's why we go to see various interpretations of Giselle. Ballet is a mixture of both - the precision of the corps de ballet in La Bayadere - the swooning heart break of Odette. When those attributes come together we are its willing audience.

 

Most of us are somewhere on the graph twixt wooliness and precision - fewer of us at the edges. We are moved by both. A dancer is both - the precision once learned allows for the wooliness - the artistry, if you will. A diet of unwooly precision, for me, would be sterile."

 

Now we are singing from the same song sheet, I totally agree. To dance was the reason I started ballet, not just to attend class and do barre work with a bit of centre practice with new friends. I know never the less its still essential for me to do work at the barre and in the centre etc, to improve my technique, but that’s the route to my objective of performing while I still have a few years left.

That why I attend virtually every ballet repertoire workshop I can find and also choreograph some of my own work, I love to portray the characters, the moment and tell the story even if it is very challenging for me. However non of my classes teach ballet mime and generally most of my teachers are not familiar with when I have gone to them for help. I did find your posting some time ago from an Internet search, I also found a RAD DVD which wasn’t particularly helpful until I divided it up and catalogued up into clips.

 

As for artistry: I just love the body language portrayed by the young Juliet in this clip from 1:50 to 2:40 (Juliet’s entrance to the ball)

 

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I am wondering whether some discussion around etiquette in ballet classes might be useful to enhance this thread? There may be questions around what is important to know or why something is structured in a certain way. It certainly assists in collective learning and improves the experience of the class as a whole?

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There is plenty I could say based upon the feedback I receive from adults and my own experience of teaching adults. I encourage dancers to be thinking dancers and ask questions but am a little reluctant to share my thoughts given the manner in which some comments have been responded to recently. I am therefore going to think v carefully about how I respond and frame this as a series of questions....tbc

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I think there is a distinction between general rudeness (talking, messing about etc) and the general etiquette of ballet. The first I think is up to the teacher to manage as every adult knows that is rude behaviour and they will be disrupting those who want to learn. Pointers on the second would be very useful as many of us may be doing things unintentionally! To a certain degree I think expectations for punctuality and dress/ hair etc have to be relaxed for an adult class but most things probably the same as for children?

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In my 'humble' opinion here are a few 'pointes' which come to mind:-

 

-Ensuring you allow sufficient time to arrive early for class.

-If the inevitable happens and British Rail or Transport for London have other ideas re your ETA then a simple apology and ensure you do your own warm up before joining class.

-I agree that not all adults will feel comfortable in leotard and tights but important to have proper fitting footwear and long hair tied back.

-Any ends of elastics should be tucked in on ballet shoes and ensure that you sew elastics correctly onto soft ballet shoes-a teacher can tell you how to do this.

-There are the obvious such as turning off mobiles and making sure you do not place your bag in an area which takes up barre space.

-Always ensure you start exercises with left hand on barre unless told otherwise.

-Always turn towards the barre in between sides of an exercise. The ballet police definitely frown upon lack of adherence to this one....

-Unless you are in a class of pure beginners it is a good idea not to place yourself at the front of the barre if you struggle picking up exercises.

-Spacing is also important so where possible try and not stand on top of someone at the barre or in the centre but work with the space available.

-Normally dancers turn in towards or away from the barre when there is insufficient space to avoid kicking each other.

-In the centre make sure that you are ready to start an exercise if put in groups travelling from corner. Even the pianists get frustrated with this one. It is also important to be aware of other dancers in your group and use space to a maximum.

-Ask questions but if you are finding you have multiple things to ask this can interrupt flow of class for others so it may be an idea to ask at another time or request a brief private lesson,

-Don't try to run before you can walk by jumping to an advanced class too early if you are able to access a range of classes. This is not always possible due to location and teachers can then usually work with this by setting different versions.

-In places where there is the option to select levels, if you are a beginner or relatively new to ballet it is a good idea to ask the teacher whether the level is suitable for you or alternatively whether they think you would benefit from going up a level. Some people can progress quicker than others but this really needs to be taken on a case by case basis as being way out of your depth is not great for anyone including other members of the class.

-Inform the teacher prior to any class if you have an injury.

-In the event that you do have to sit out part of the class there is much to be gained from watching others or doing strengthening exercises at the side of the studio rather than just leaving early.

-If you have to leave early just acknowledge teacher as you go out door.

-If you progress to pointe work as an adult seek your teacher's advice as to whether your feet are strong enough to do this and gain advice re buying shoes, how to sew ribbons on and break the shoes in. Most definitely don't try at home alone.

-In the event of becoming involved in performances it would be practically unheard of for a dancer to perform without attending a rehearsal. My take is that this is even more important for adults with less experience as there may be blind spots which cannot be seen by the performer.

-Be mindful and respectful that many adults attending classes struggle with confidence so support and encouragement is important. Most are better than they think they are but it can work both ways and this is why attending classes with other adults can be so worthwhile.

-Set your own achievable goals in collaboration with your teacher and remember that dance is not just about 'doing' steps but about developing the ability to make fluid transitions and draw out subtle nuances of the music. Developing the fluidity of movement and good use of arms/head are perhaps some of the trickiest to master. I sometimes have students mark through an exercise or solo to the music just with the arms and head.

I have rambled but hope there may be something of use to someone. I list these as just my thoughts based upon experience and hope these are respected for being just that!

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Very nice, love the bit about performing without rehearsals, we have been rehearsing since the end of Feb and we still have little slips, next week is full of performances with two on Saturday, I guess it should be OK then. Anyway well stated

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a couple to add:

 

When going down the diagonal don't stop in the middle if you become confused - keep moving downward as there are other dancers behind you.

 

When you are in the centre and moving forward - as you reach the front wall or have completed the dance sequence - move to whichever side wall is closest to you and move to the back of the room along the side wall. Do you stop in the front and then turn around and move back up the center of the room through the lines of other dancers.

 

Do not lean on the piano.

 

Do not wear heavily scented perfume, deodorant, etc.

 

Remove jewelry such as earrings which if it drops off onto the floor can be a hazard to the dancers near you.

 

Check the elastics on your shoes before class to make sure they are still firmly sewed on.

 

Always thank your teacher - as a class - and individually before leaving.

 

That's a great list Balleteacher.

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