Flexibility

[LinMM]

I know I am a lot older than your daughter but I do have a regular massage which usually includes a lot of work around the shoulders and neck where I tend to hold a lot of tension. This is with someone who has done a lot of bodywork with people and teaches yoga.....has a qualification in this as well.....and has a really sound knowledge of anatomy etc. She also has a couple of dancers on her books!

 

I really can't recommend having a regular massage enough for a dancer......probably even a young one like your daughter even though I know younger people tend to be more generally freer.

In fact Ive just recently increased my time from an hour to one and a half hours for the first time so we can incorporate some exercises within the session as well. I go every 5-6 weeks and can't tell you just how much I look forward to this.

She never tries to over treat and always recommends an osteopath occasionally if need be. I have found though that with regular massage I need the osteopath less.....just occasionally with a certain recurrent injury.

 

This is just in reply to your today's post Tulip which I think has been moved from somewhere else?

[Thecatsmother]

I attended Lisa's workshop when she came to the Uk. I find it useful but you could try testing flexibility lying down with one leg raised with pointed and flexed foot as a test and then give her a neck and shoulder massage and measure after. The program does not just release tension in neck but has exercises for different parts of the body. I have found that students particularly like the hip releases.

 

Once you know how it works and the exercises you do not really need the book. Perhaps your dance school could buy one and share costs. PM me if you have other questions.

 

PS I did try the flexibility tests pre and post a neck massage with my mother and the difference was significant. She is not a dancer. Lisa says the neck releases improve flexibility in approx 80% of people. My experience is that it is over 60% but smaller sample making it difficult to assess.

 

Hope this is of help.

[Tulip]

Thank you Balleteacher that sounds really interesting. However I don't know how to give a neck message. I can give her neck a nice rub and she tells me I could be a massue if that's the right word. Truth be told I haven't got a clue what I am doing, just massaging the muscles either side if her cervical spine. The DVD is very expensive I believe, but if it is worth it and of she can get someone to do it for her, then it will be money well spent.

[Tulip]

Meant to add she is away at school and only comes home on average every three weeks. How long does the effects of the massage last roughly and how often should the student have them? It does all sound rather interesting.

[Thecatsmother]

Perhaps all DD and DS should try neck and shoulder releases on DM! In the name of scientific research of course. Will post later in response to neck massage but not rocket science. You need to do scalp and the part where the neck joins the occipital lobes in the scull as well because a lot of tension can be held here. I just integrate the stretches into my warmup but there is a book that comes with it. You can use the exercises anywhere (within reason) ie you do not need DVD to integrate into practice once you know which exercises work best for you.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

We've been considering buying the DVD for dd as flexibility is a weakness of hers. I've searched and searched for a second hand copy but can't find one anywhere.

[2dancersmum]

Seeing a physio and getting an assessment and individual exercises might be a better option.  As previous posters have said there are lots of clips on youtube for Lisa, how to massage and her techniques but everybody is unique and an individual assessment might be a worthwhile investment.

[Loulabelle]

My DD sees a sports physio on a fairly regular basis (started as a need for an injury and we have kept it up as maintenance). He does the neck and shoulder massages for her and she always notices an increase in her hamstring flexibility (she was always tight there but not anymore!) and in her general flexibility. We always say we wish she could go more often but funds don't allow.

[drdance]

I was going to add into this discussion but everyone seems to have already answered Tulip's question. I'm fascinated that a simple head/neck massage can be so effective at releasing neural tension in the hamstrings. As for questions like how long it lasts etc I imagine these will be very different in each individual, depending on things like natural posture, the persons individual make-up of connective tissue, age, anxiety etc etc etc The easy way I suppose is to do the stretch then massage and stretch again to work out how effective it has been immediately, and then try to do the same stretch each day to 'measure' how long the gains have lasted for.

 

I agree with the idea of interested people joining together to buy Lisa's book/DVD and sharing it in whatever clever or technologically minded ways you might have! ;-P

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to justify ds missing school to see a physio when she isn't injured.

 

She has been given excercises the problem is she tends to rush through them - its almost as though faster is better, whereas in class when she is talked through them she has to slow down.

 

Previous to starting at her new school apart from one session she never did any stretching or flexibility excercises unless you count syllabus warm ups.

[Thecatsmother]

Based upon my understanding the whole concept of this program is about releasing tension rather than stretching. The whole thinking and subsequent program by Lisa Howell came about as a result of her observing a hip replacement operation of an elderly man whom she had assessed prior to surgery. His range was extremely limited but to her surprise the surgeon got hold of the patient's leg whilst under anaesthetic and she saw that it had a full range similar to a dancer. This lead her to start thinking about the concept of what the body can do if the mind gets out of the way.

 

She would say that the more familiar you get with the stretches and once you find out where in the body you carry the most tension then you only really need to do these specific stretches. For example, if I learnt the stretches for the thoracic spine resulted in a marked increase in my flexibility measured through two stretch tests then this is likely to be an area where I carry tension and will benefit from the use of these stretches.

 

As to how long it lasts, I would say based upon my understanding that the more you get to the point of targeting the program at the relevant areas of your body then the less you need to use it. This has been my own personal experience although I find I naturally use some of the stretches if I am warning up as they work well for me.

 

That said I am naturally pretty flexible but have seen an improvement in range in those less flexible when I have taught the concepts to classes.

[spooky]

Tulip - it used to be possible to book massages at school with a masseuse(?) who came in about once a week. Can't remember how much it cost but it was quite reasonable I think.

[celb]

The sports massage therapist at Elmhurst comes in every Wednesday... £22.50 though

[LinMM]

£22.50 for how long?!

[pastel]

Hi,

 

I've only had time to skim over this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating info.

 

We bought the Front Splits Fast program 3 years ago (I considered it for over 2 years before purchasing). It is expensive. I decided that it was equivalent to the cost of a year's worth of extra stretch class at the time.

 

Anyway, my dd did the pre tests and her legs were at about 90deg. She has used the concepts and I think she was able to do the splits comfortably within a few weeks. She is now in over splits with both legs. Her teacher told me the other day that she can officially consider herself flexible, since the only thing to stretch on in the studio was a speaker and she was comfortable on that. 

 

I don't think it is really a matter of how long the effects of the massage lasts, it is more the regular implementation of the exercises. The kids can learn to do most of the massage on themselves or each other.

 

It didn't help her to completely get the side splits, but she has worked on that with some other exercises including using a super strong band.

 

Just as an aside, she finds that FSF helps with flexibility, but she still has to work on strength in those areas in order to use the flexibility, say in a ponche (not sure if that is the right spelling, but you know what I mean).

 

Hope that helps

[Tulip]

It all sound fascinating that a simple massage can do so much. If that is the case how come vocational schools aren't at least looking into these methods. They could even be done in a Pilates class or as someone has mentioned for older students they could massage each other, if it was safe?

[Thecatsmother]

You can actually do on yourself which makes it cheaper????

[LinMM]

May be cheaper but having tried both for me it's always better if someone else does the massage.....even at a simple level!

[LinMM]

Although if at a very simple level eg : getting someone to even just hold your head and neck while you relax and let go....can be very beneficial anyway and this could be done by a family member or a friend without resorting to a practitioner.

However I feel it's money well spent if you are into a lot of physical activity.

[drdance]

It all sound fascinating that a simple massage can do so much. If that is the case how come vocational schools aren't at least looking into these methods. They could even be done in a Pilates class or as someone has mentioned for older students they could massage each other, if it was safe?

 

That's a huge question I often ask to myself, about several issues! Put simply, it's probably down to time or lack of it. If I was to put on my 'cynical' hat I might also end up saying it's because they've not really had to deal with students who don't become flexible as a result of daily training, or maybe the students they take are usually so naturally loose that neural tension isn't an issue, therefore it's not looked into and so no-one has heard the message?

 

There is also an issue that it hasn't necessarily been 'proven' to work - in terms of published, peer reviewed, critically and rigoroulsy tested science. (A quick google scholar search didn't throw anything out - Please correct me if I'm wrong though). Massage itself is sometimes viewed as an 'alternative therapy' where the benefits are inconclusive. This doesn't mean that it's not brilliant, but that it's effects are difficult to measure or conclude anything directly related to massage.

 

It's like a lot of these things - anecdotal evidence is strong, a lot of things appear common sense yet in the dance world the total opposite appears (Would you expect someone physically and mentally tired to be at their best in a stressful situation?! But in dance we don't question the idea of doing a days rehearsal the day of, or the day before a big show or exam!!!!!)

 

But, as a researcher in the field of dance medicine and science I think I should look further at maybe trying to test this massage/flexibility theory some more!

[Anjuli_Bai]

One also wonders how much this has to do with "suggestion?"

[Tulip]

I shall try this on my daughter when she comes home for Christmas, more for relaxation because she will be testing. It would be fantastic of this helped her with her upper body tension. What a nice way to sort a problem area, if only.

[drdance]

Anjuli please can you explain what you mean? I don't understand - thanks :-)

[Anjuli_Bai]

Anjuli please can you explain what you mean? I don't understand - thanks :-)

 

As I understand some of the above discussion there is a question of does this massage technique work?  It occurred to me that - along with the fact that indeed it does work - it might also carry along with it the power of suggestion that it does work -and therefore it does.

 

I am not saying that is the only reason it works - but it could be a factor.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Anjuli_Bai

[LinMM]

As so much tension in the muscle is mind based as well as physically based I think this could well be true.

 

I can't remember which poster told the story of how Lisa Howells(who I know nothing about) got interested in all this......she was watching an operation on someone who had a lot more movement while deeply asleep than when awake.

Well obviously when asleep...and especially under anaesthetic for an op where a muscle relaxant is also given....the level of relaxation creates this further movement noticed. So when awake its interesting why the person then no longer has this range of movement once consciousness is restored. Muscles will have natural tension on them to support the bodies frame etc but a lot of other tension which builds up over years is psychological/emotional......so very real for that individual......but it is the release of this level that I think can be worked on to create more freedom of movement.

 

What I personally haven't observed.......yet.......is whether there is a specific relationship say with shoulder and neck massage and just the release of the hamstrings.

[taxi4ballet]

Any ideas on what could be causing tight achilles?

 

Never used to be a problem...

[Anjuli_Bai]

If you've not had this problem before and therefore one may assume you do not have a naturally tight Achilles tendon - some things to check are:

 

Adequate warmup before dance class.

 

Street shoes

 

Sandals

 

Shoes on the order of Ug boots

 

Not enough plié included in the ballet exercises (should be a plié for every relevé)

 

adequate stretch after class

 

cold weather

 

working (even walking) on hard surfaces

 

not landing jumps with an adequate plié

 

not putting heels down after jumps

 

ill fitting shoes (both ballet and street)

[drdance]

Try stretching the calf muscles. If that doesn't help it might be that there's some low grade tendonopathy starting to kick in. Like Anjuli has suggested, tightness can be caused by lots of different things but if you can't identify anything perhaps a trip to a physio might be worth looking into.

[taxi4ballet]

What's tendonopathy? I've not heard of it before.

 

Edited to add: just googled it - and I don't think it's that.

Edited November 5, 2013 by taxi4ballet

[Anna C]

If you've not had this problem before and therefore one may assume you do not have a naturally tight Achilles tendon - some things to check are:

 

Adequate warmup before dance class.

 

Street shoes

 

Sandals

 

Shoes on the order of Ug boots

 

Not enough plié included in the ballet exercises (should be a plié for every relevé)

 

adequate stretch after class

 

cold weather

 

working (even walking) on hard surfaces

 

not landing jumps with an adequate plié

 

not putting heels down after jumps

 

ill fitting shoes (both ballet and street)

.....and growing? I think sometimes the bones in the leg might grow slightly more quickly than the muscles and tendons - if that makes sense? Has your dd seen a physio?

[taxi4ballet]

I have naturally tight achilles (my mum too), but dd never used to, it has crept up over the past few years, and she's hypermobile everywhere else. She's stopped growing, so we've discounted that, and yes, she's been seen by a physio and an osteopath.

 

She's always been one of those who land from jumps with a thud rather than a bounce, and she has really small feet and very high arches. She also has swayback knees and her heels are over an inch apart when she stands in first. Anjuli, I think we have discussed it before!

 

Any ideas for stretching exercises please?

[LinMM]

In those New York City ballet videos.......posted on the Ballet Information thread the other day there is one on "injuries" where a dancer's Achilles had snapped(ouch) and you see him having some treatment including a strange looking flexible drum thing which he kept placing his foot on and off to strengthen it. Obviously he was with a physio but whatever it was it looked very effective and I guess could be used even if not actually injured. This may just be standard practise now but I had never seen one before and fancied having a go myself with the hope of getting more than an inch off the floor when jumping!!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Well dd is very pleased.

 

After being told in the summer by a couple of different teachers (inc drdance) that her back was very stuff she was yesterday told that she has one of the most flexible backs in her class.

 

Just need to work on those hamstrings now!