Running

[Evie]

Any thoughts on football. My ds is at vocational school and plays football most days, obviously the school know and don't seem to mind, he's on his 4th or 5th football this school year. Boys from every year including 6th form play and not even the breaking of the ballet teachers car window, seems to have dimmed their enjoyment!! Apparently they have 'learnt' to be more careful! I do hear of injuries all the time to other ds, none of them ever seem to be related to football though!

[drdance]

If the school are happy with it then I can't see it being an issue! Interestingly, football is very similar to ballet (!) in it's purely physiological demands - short bursts of high intensity (sprinting) followed by periods requiring intricate skill (tackling) followed by short periods of time at low intensity (eg walking, or watching while the ball is in another area of the field).

[Pas de Quatre]

LinMM - I think that "recreational swimming" wouldn't hurt, even being on a school team is not too bad, although how you would find time for that while getting in enough dance hours could be difficult.  Serious competitive swimmers train for hours, probably more and at a younger age then dancers.  So it is not surprising that their shoulders develop.  There is also the possibility that it is those with the strongest/biggest shoulders naturally who do well at swimming, so the training only enhances their natural physique.

 

Another point is that ballet training doesn't actually give much upper body strength.  In today's world where every classical company includes contemporary works in their repertoire extra strength in the arms and shoulders is really necessary.

 

Margot Fonteyn was a very strong recreational swimmer, she loved the water, and I don't think she had any problems! 

[Friends]

Did you know Rio Ferdinand had a scholarship to Central at  11 and stayed for 4 years before concentrating on his football.

There is a similarity between football and ballet drdance.

[Anna C]

Was he an Associate then?

[LinMM]

Yes I think my dance teacher at the time was worried I might want to start doing MORE swimming but ballet took up too much of my time anyway then!! Probably also because of body type...tall and fairly large frame(but skinny) at the time.

 

Interesting about football never really linked the two before other than I had heard some football teams were having ballet lessons!

My dad was a footballer (played for Woking F.C.......Chelsea wanted him but in the fifties not the money they earn now....so that was a definite no from mum!) we have a similar physique in fact....shape of hands, legs even feet etc!!

[Anjuli_Bai]

I had a number of students who were football (American style) players.  They told me that the ballet helped them in many ways one of them being adept at making sharp changes in direction.

 

Most of the problems they had with ballet was they were in general fairly tightly constructed.

[Tulip]

Well both her ankles are very sore on the sides, she thinks it is tendons. She hates having to tell the teachers about injuries but her ankles are sore enough to seek advice today. Perhaps she can run in the summer after Prague when she will be resting from ballet. I will observe to see what she is doing with her feet whilst running if I can. Do you have any suggestions drdance as to why she has swollen tendons on the side of her feet?

[spooky]

Have sent you a PM Tulip

[Tulip]

Thanks Spooky, I have p.m you back.

[Huddsballetmum]

My dd was advised to skip for at least 10-15 mins per day to increase performance stamina by her dance teachers and I have got to say it works really well.  One bonus is that you can do it indoors so weather doesn't affect you.

 

I hope your dd's ankles are soon better

[drdance]

Hi Tulip - it's difficult to know without seeing exactly what's hurting where and when. It might be irritation from a sudden increase in impact, she may have done too much too soon, or it could be related to her shoes or her running style. It's even worth looking into orthotics if she wants to keep up with her running. If the pain subsides while she's not running then it's likely that it is related - but if her ankles continue to be sore despite stopping the running it could be related to other things.

 

If they settle and she wants to try running again, look into her running shoes first. Are they relatively new? Trainers, like pointe shoes, can lose their support over time. Make sure they have good support around the heel and rearfoot area and its also worth making sure they get done up properly! Secondly I'd advise your DD not to go for a half an hour run straight away, but to try building up to it - or use the aerobic intervals method I mentioned earlier.... 1 min of running, 1 min of walking. Just as beneficial!

[Tulip]

Thank you drdance I will tell her.

[Anjuli_Bai]

I think another difference in how the foot is used between ballet and running is that in running the heel impacts the surface first while in ballet it is (most of the time) the forepart of the foot.  This makes a huge difference in how the foot is impacted. 

 

As for tendues being a repetitive motion - it is indeed - and many are done in a ballet class.  But it is broken up by other activity.  Surely a runner going for half a mile (or less) uses the foot in a much more concentrated repetitive way - each step taking the full weight of the body.  A tendue takes the weight quite differently.  A runner is basically doing one thing - a ballet dancer is doing many things.

 

Sorry to hear your daughter is still having trouble - hope it rectifies soon.

[Anna C]

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[Tulip]

Just thought that I would add an update. My daughter didn't bother going for a run again as she didn't want to risk injury again. However I did invest with advise in a good pair of walking trainers sketches, as she wanted to do some walking. Fortunately she has had no problems since. Ballet dancers after so many years do walk different though to none dancers. Their feet don't appear to be totally parallel, it's hard to explain unless you really watch them.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It occurred to me last year when watching dd run at sports day at a very sporty school where despite her general level of fitness she really struggled. Itcwas as if she had no power.

 

I suddenly thought has the coach never thought to tell her she is trying to run with turnout!

[taxi4ballet]

I suppose if you've spent years getting your legs to go sideways, then running isn't going to come quite so naturally any more!

[Loulabelle]

When I stopped dancing, many moons ago, I had to retrain myself to walk with my feet and thighs parallel opposed to turned out. This I realised wasn't how 'normal' non dancier types walked after being subjected to some ridicule from an unpleasant girl at school.

 

I am however still far more comfortable walking 'like a duck' as was pointed out to me!!!

[drdance]

I've recently taken up running and I really struggled with it at first - dance is such an intermittent exercise form that continued running for anything more than a few minutes felt so alien to me. But I've persevered and I'm really getting into it now. After a few aches from strengthening some muscles that weren't being used very much while I dance, it's been pretty simple - and my stamina in ballet class is really improving too!

[pas de chat]

I agree with Lottie everything in moderation plus a good pair of trainers fitted by a professional. 

[CeliB]

This is a really interesting  thread which I somehow missed when it first started...

 

It doesn't surprise me that the research suggests dancers don't do enough aerobic exercise in class- after all class also isn't enough to develop the men's upper bodies sufficiently and so they do lots of additional gym training - so evidently class is not a 100% one to one match with the physical requirements of ballet. Maybe once they are in a professional company it is the constant performing that develops the aerobic fitness? It was interesting that Xander Parish noted in the Dancing Times that once he joined a company he felt on stage was by far the most important learning environment with class being relatively unimportant... This might perhaps explain both the research AND dancemad's experience without contradiction?

 

However I do know DS has been told he shouldn't run. Not quite sure if it is due to possibility of impact injury (which wouldn't surprise me- my brother, who is training as an army officer, has suffered both a stress fracture and a full spiral fracture of his shinbone as a result of cross country running) or the more chronic tendonitis type damage....However I would have thought an eliptical trainer would eliminate (or hugely reduce) these risks...

 

Can see why girls may want to avoid bigger shoulder muscles but can't see this is a disadvantage for the boys? So swimming would be great! I shall try and persuade DS down the pool over the christmas hols!!!

[Pas de Quatre]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iain-hunter/running-technique-footstrike_b_2050161.html

 

Just found this fascinating article with videos about foot strike when running.  I would suggest that one of the main dangers to dancers is when turnout means they over pronate - see head on view of the runners, although hard heel strikes can also be a problem.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that dancers naturally run with a forefoot strike.

[drdance]

Dancers naturally run with a forefoot strike due to a tendency to run with 'pointed feet', and turnout could cause some pronation but in my experience professional ballet dancers that I've worked with in the past were happy to receive a bit of coaching on running technique and to do 20 minutes or so on a treadmill.

 

Interestingly the stage demands of ballet are even less aerobic than class or rehearsal, except perhaps for the corps due ballet. Some of my research during my PhD involved watching and tracking single dancers during a range of ballet roles and rep, and documenting the intensity of their movements every 30 seconds. (Similar analysis is done in team sports but using hi tech computer software not a student!). The published research concluded that principals and soloists has a work to rest ratio of about 1:3 with a lot of high intensity work while corps had more low intensity and moderate intensity work with longer bouts of work and about a 1:1 work to rest ratio.

 

Despite the intermittent nature of ballet stage performance, a good level of aerobic fitness (only gained through aerobic exercise) helps dancers recover between those bouts.

[LinMM]

I also believe there is a difference in running when with shoes and without.

 

When barefoot there is a tendency to protect the foot more by doing a forefoot strike so going through the foot more rather than the heel first which happens more when wearing very supportive shoes.....one can risk the heel more I suppose.

 

I can't remember where I read this but I think it was when reading about different shoes and there are some people who want to go,back to a minimal support shoe which requires a different style of running.

[Thecatsmother]

I personally think this needs to be considered in context and on a case by case basis. There are times especially during injury rehab or when preparing for certain roles where it may have uses. The need for increased stamina can be highlighted by the ENB Swan Lake in terms of the large space that needs to be covered by the corps when dancing in the round.

Dancers are very good at listening to their own bodies and I think can draw upon research findings and integrate this into training when they need. I know that studies have been done to look at whether vibration plates can increase jump height but not sure what the findings were.

Ultimately the dancer is probably best equipped to make judgements around what they need at different times and why.

[Thecatsmother]

Dr Dance. I would be really interested to know what exactly dance scientists do in terms of training modules and the career path post graduation. To be honest I am aware that it is an expanding field but I do not know very much about it and how your work differs from other professionals within the dance world like physios, performance psychologists, dieticians, Pilates instructors etc.

Would be interesting to hear the typical route into the career and in your experience what tends to draw people to this area of study. I am wondering how the profession situates itself within dance schools and companies. Purely personal interest really as think it is good to know about all aspects of dance.

[drdance]

Firstly - the studies using vibration training and jump height were conclusive (I know this because the work was done by colleagues of mine).

 

There recently has been a great article published in the journal of dance medicine and science summarizing the links between fatigue and injury. One of the major causes of injury (as well as diet, illness, muscle imbalance, dehydration etc etc etc) is fatigue, and fatigue can be attributed to poor aerobic fitness.

 

The cited example of ENB's Swan Lake is true - dancers in the corps can cover miles in one performance.

 

As for careers in dance science - the major companies in the UK have dance scientists on staff, usually in a consultancy role. They can advise on anything related to improving performance and preventing injury and can work in conjunction with physios, psychologists, massage therapists, Pilates staff etc. During my time doing research in the area I was involved in doing pre- and mid-season fitness testing with two companies with one of the countries most senior dance strength and conditioning specialists. He's been involved with these companies for many years advising on all aspects of strength and fitness training. Physios tend to focus primarily on injury treatment, most body conditioning is Pilates based but from time to time certain dancers will need extra strength/conditioning support so it's up to the staff to seek someone who is a specialist in this field.

 

Dance science qualifications in the UK are at Masters level and will cover lots of aspects of dance science such as exercise physiology, strength, biomechanics, research, statistics, psychology, common injuries, treatment, causes and prevention.

 

At the moment it's primarily a research/academic field - lots of people very passionate about researching how to make dance training and performance more effective and healthier. This has yet to really translate into lots of full time jobs with dance schools/companies - despite more and more conclusive research. In an ideal world all the schools/companies would have a strength/conditioning coach, a performance psychologist and a nutritionist as well as physios, massage therapists etc. But there's never enough money!