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International Students taking 6th form places


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You will have realised that I have no technical expertise whatsoever but what has struck me reading some of the postings on this thread is that very positive comments are made about placement and attention to detail that is taught here to (younger British) students.  For my part, as a ballet watcher, I would far rather watch the dancers with the attention to detail than all the showy tricks that can often look out of place if they have not been choreographed.

 

I know it doesn't explain the issue of foreign students but it is still what I would rather watch and, perhaps, the foreign students think they will learn that if they come here.

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I agree it's worrying for posters with children at WL or starting soon to read this thread but I don't think it's possible to split the subject of foreign students at RBS US and the why not so many from WL make it... And I also think it can be useful to get into something with open eyes. Getting into WL doesn't automatically give one access to US and even less RB but it's still a wonderful experience...

I agree, BUT Luke Jennings' article concentrated on the selection process, the assessing out process and the disconnect between lower school selection and what the companies are looking for. He was not putting the "blame" on international students.

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Or maybe they already have it and can do showy tricks as well... And what one perceives as tricks only can be a culturally different way of dancing! I somehow have difficulty imagining that RBS, among others, would go for students with showy tricks and no perfect placement... It wouldn't make sense!

Edited by afab
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This year have US not offered half the WL boys places plus at least two from another British vocational school? Not bad surely. As hfbrew says bodies change etc. some of the children that passed year 9 appraisals will no longer be suitable for classical training or have lost their passion for ballet and wish to pursue another path. 

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Ok when I said those not offered Upper School get into ENB and Elmhurst, I should have said the vast majority end up at one or the other, and one or two end up at Central or Tring or leave the dance world. The point I was making that the teaching at WL must be of a high standard for all these students to be offered places at such good dance schools

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Without a shadow of doubt I would expect the royal ballet training to be of world class standard. But sometimes the Royal get it wrong when they choose some of their student for their type of training. At Elmhurst, central, ENB and others in 6th form are regularly appraised by the end of 2nd year for central don't know about the others, the students have to audition to get into the third year. We all know and accept this. I presume that if my daughter does not make third year and is not offered to re do second year as is what happens at central, then realistically she is not going to make it as a dancers. My daughter is used to auditioning against a lot of nationalities it is just the way it is. The fact that she was awarded her place as some one mentioned earlier is a real achievement and all our British students should be very proud of themselves. Regarding finding I think primrose worded what I was thinking very well, if the schools want internationals then it should come put of their purse string not from us tax payers.

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In which case state funded schools in France or Germany should make their British students pay and not get in for free or almost free as it is at the moment!

These school are also funded by taxes of course!

Edited by afab
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But you see Tulip I don't agree with my own statement! It was pure rhetoric! I believe whether we like or not, we live in a global world and Europe has decided EU students had the same scholarship rights in all EU countries and I think it's fair! I don't mind paying for British kids...

The question in this thread is not one of money. It is why so many foreigners are picked over British kids... 

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International students attending the Bolshoi and its the same with the Vaganova, all pay. That is correct in my opinion. Why should the Russian government pay for foriegn students when that money could be spent on their own students. If you want to attend these schools and recieve their excellent training then you have to pay for it.

The original question posted was international students taking 6th form places. This happens because clearly the schools think they are better than the British students. If they didnt think that then they wouldnt offer the places. Why are these foreign students better, is just a matter of opinion isnt it. The proof is in the pudding regarding who gets offered jobs in companies. I wonder how many students in this country are classically trained in all the upper schools and how many actually gain employment versus students trained in other countries and the percentage of their students gaining employment.

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I agree with you Primrose about the Bolshoi but Russia is not in the EU and in the UK the only students having the same DaDa rights (and not MDS) as the Brits are the UK residents and the UE members... Russians should pay...

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We seem to be going round in circles somewhat. The original question was nothing to do with funding, and we've already had a somewhat heated thread about money and funding, so can we please stick to the original subject.

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From what I gather from reading all of this about 50% go from WL to US with perhaps a few from elsewhere in the UK accepted and the rest are international students.  I think this is actually pretty good, especially given that the last appraisals were in year 9.  A lot can change in 2 years - physical, family circumstances and the childs own wishes for the future.  Then consider the sheer numbers of applicants RBS receive from all over the world.  If US choose who they consider the best then it is surely not surprising that nearly 50% come from training elsewhere or is the implcation that WL is better training than any where else so all their students should go into upper school?

I think if you looked at the make-up of the final years of training in schools abroad, their schools may have a lesser percentage of international students but I imagine this is due to language differences and less international students applying.  English is taught all over Europe and add to that the reputation of RBS and you get the large numbers of inernational sudents applying.  Afab mentioned the need to be fluent in French for POB.  How many students from our British schools can claim to be fluent in any foreigh language at 16?

It will be interesting to see in 5 years time how the mix all over Europe changes as changes to funding over here force our students to look further afield for training.

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Hi I am new to writing on this fantastic forum but have been a lurker for a while.

 

I have a DC in year 11 at WL who was not fortunate in gaining a place at US this year. Thankfully though we still count ourselves as one of the lucky ones as my DC was invited to the finals of ENB and Elmhurst and we also have plan B and C in place if all else fails. Its just the anxious wait for results now for us as many others have on this forum. However some other students in DC's year both boys and girls were not invited to ENB or Elmhurst finals. Many like us have a plan B to try however not all and there has been some frantic last minute application form completing.

 

I just want to let everyone know that it is really really tough out ther these days for our students - even for those who have been lucky enough to have 5 years of vocational training.

 

Just to add when reporting back on how auditions have gone my DC has made exactly the same observations as hfbrew. In general the international students seem to be super flexible, great at turning and full of tricks but most moves are not completed very neatly and there is a distinct lack of musicality. However maybe the big 3 schools feel that it is sometimes easier to mould this type of dancer to what they want and have more success than take on more of the traditionally "safe" Britiish young dancers. I don't really know.

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Welcome to the forum Step In Time :)   Wishing your son or daughter lots of luck and hope the next week goes past quickly while you're waiting for results (we're waiting to hear from vet schools here - so you have my sympathy).

 

I'm glad to see you had back-up plans in place - I was amazed talking to some of the WL parents when my son was year 11, that they had just assumed their child would get into RBS upper school and they were completely thrown when that didn't happen.

 

Got everything crossed for you.

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Just wanted also to say welcome to the forum and the very best of luck to your dc- as you say it really isn't easy out there. Congratulations on achieving 5 years though. And hopefully your dc will end up at a place that will be better suited to to his/her needs,  Certainly this was the case for my ds and he and others were amongst the first of their ages to get employment. And I feel I must also add that it was British students in his year at US also found employment quicker than many of the internationals. Do I feel bitter than my ds narrowly missed out on US that year when there was a considerably large number of talented overseas students? Not in the slightest but maybe thats because I know that there are plenty of other excellent schools out there.

 

As for schools selections, well who knows what any are looking for - probably just as well because if all schools looked for the same things even more talent would fall by the wayside. There will be students from all over the world at these places- all at the time considered best suited to the training they've applied for.

Some of the "best" students will be British, others international and they all learn so much from each other.

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Thank you JulieW and good luck with results too.

 

Yes thank goodness for back-up plans. However I  just wish the school was a little more honest with the students as for some it has come as a complete shock that they received the dreaded "no" and have not done so well in other auditions.

 

I have heard some students have since queried why and been told they are not the right body shape etc now for ballet or their technique is not so good and totally understand that this could be the case but if this could have been suggested to them before auditions commenced maybe more would have taken the time to investigate an alternative path as their back - up such as contemporary or musical theatre.

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welcome to the forum and good luck to your dc and yourself with all this waiting.  Hopefully your dc will end up at another school and really flourish.  As posters have said, whose dcs are actually out there in the real world dancing for a living, it is actually about gaining employment at the end of the day.  Your dc will take his or her WL training with them to another school and come out stronger I'm sure.

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Thank you JulieW and good luck with results too.

 

Yes thank goodness for back-up plans. However I  just wish the school was a little more honest with the students as for some it has come as a complete shock that they received the dreaded "no" and have not done so well in other auditions.

 

I have heard some students have since queried why and been told they are not the right body shape etc now for ballet or their technique is not so good and totally understand that this could be the case but if this could have been suggested to them before auditions commenced maybe more would have taken the time to investigate an alternative path as their back - up such as contemporary or musical theatre.

 

Whilst I have a lot of sympathy for the students who haven't got into Upper School, I do feel that anyone who is in year 11 who does not have a plan B or C is slightly foolish. Even if you thought your child was a dead cert, you can never be sure until you have the offer. I do find it hard to believe that this information comes as a complete shock; surely most students will have some idea of whether they have the required attributes - maybe they and their parents just didn't want to hear the messages, or were in denial after investing 5 years in their training? It must be a fine line for the school to tread between giving the right feedback but keeping them motivated and even White Lodge can never be 100% certain who the Upper School will take on the day.

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Also meant to say, how realistic is it that 24 children selected at the age of 10 will still be suitable for ballet training at the age of 16? I know some of them get assessed out along the way but generally the majority don't. It is the same with any other physical sport/activity.

 

And why is everybody focussed on RBS? What about Elmhurst...how many of their students get into their upper school (or one of the top 3)?

 

Also, how many UK students are taken into other schools? I understand that about half the students at ENBS are from abroad, but because they don't have a lower school, nobody seems to talk about it.

 

The reality is that the schools should want to take the students they think are most likely to succeed wherever they come from. It sounds like our UK students are very well represented considering the statistics.

Edited by Ribbons
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Afab I knew you didn't agree with the statement earlier on I was just lightening the mood, but I actually do agree with you regarding EU students. It is the law anyway. Schools should be allowed to take the BEST students available but they should not take a student just because they can pay large fees regardless of where they are from.

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How does it work for the prize winners, those winning the prestigious ballet competitions abroad? They often get a place at a top ballet school as part of the prize, funded by some organisation or other - I assume schools like the RB don't fund these themselves but perhaps I'm wrong. Do the students get to pick which school they can attend or do they have to divvy up the allocated places between themselves? Or does the school pick the student they want?

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Afab I knew you didn't agree with the statement earlier on I was just lightening the mood, but I actually do agree with you regarding EU students. It is the law anyway. Schools should be allowed to take the BEST students available but they should not take a student just because they can pay large fees regardless of where they are from.

Sorry... I was getting annoyed and didn't take time to think you might be doing that... I'm happy we agree  :)

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As an interesting related statistic I was talking to someone who trained at a prestigious ex soviet block ballet school (I honestly can't remember which) and she told me that of 26 students who entered the school at 11 years old only 6 graduated at 17/18.....

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Reading all this with great interest and have already been working up plans b and c and my ds is in only in year 9! We will be unable to afford fees at Elmhurst or ENB US (due to dada changes) so our plans involve auditions in Europe and I am grateful for the funding offered and the fact they are open to taking foreign students! Also looking at the States. Still works out cheaper for us!!! Thanks for sharing your experiences step in time. Huge luck to your dc.

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I've been reading through this topic with interest. I'll state out front, that my dd is one of those "international students" who would do anything for a place at RBS. 

 

I'm not good with statistics, but thought I'd add a couple of comments.

 

The question has been asked 'Why do international students want to train in Britain?' In Australia, we really only have the one company school, which is extremely difficult to get into and not everyone is looking for that type of training. The Aussie Ballet is a very contemporary company so if your dc wants to be a classical dancer, it isn't really a first choice. So one aspect of looking O/S is lack of choice here.

 

Secondly, in our country, we have many ex RB folk who teach our kids. They are brilliant and well loved. Naturally, our kids want to train where their mentors did.

 

As an aside, as far as I'm aware, if my dd were fortunate enough to be accepted into RBS we would pay full fees. (Not sure how we would manage??)

 

There are many international students in our pre-professional/vocational schools here too. We think they all look better than our home grown students - maybe the grass always looks greener on the other side! :)

 

Also, I think it is important to note, that these students are all just kids with big dreams and lots of dedication and commitment. My dd has applied to attend RBS summer school because even if she only ever dances at Covent Garden for 2 weeks in her life, it will be a dream come true. The financial commitment on the part of our family is huge, her application is a decision we didn't take lightly and will require us borrowing money. IF she were to somehow be accepted into the US it would require us to leave our gorgeous farm life and all our family and friends. Students taking those places do so at a huge level of sacrifice - either the family relocates or the kids move to the other side of the planet alone. There is a lot more at stake than statistics.

 

On a positive note - realise that what you have in the RBS is legendary and it is an honour that you have students from all over the globe, hankering to attend. I know that doesn't console your kids if they miss out on a place. Our family would LOVE to have the chance to attend that beautiful Opera House and watch the RB just once in our life!

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