How much Ballet? (for an 11yo aiming for upper school)

[Dancing_Mae]

Just curious as to how much ballet people think a 11 year old who aspires to go to ballet school when she’s 16 should be doing? 

[Doing Dance 1]

The recommended guidelines are no more hours per week than their chronological age.

 

‘Limiting hours spent in organised sport (training and competition) per week such that they do not exceed the athlete’s age. E.g. a 10 year old should not train more than 10 hours per week across all sports’

 

https://www.danceaustralia.com.au/expertise/how-intensely-should-children-train

 

 

“based on the data, it’s pretty clear that if you train for more hours per week than your age [e.g., 12 hours for a 12-year- old], you’re more likely to have overuse injury.”’

https://dance-teacher.com/its-time-to-rethink-hyperspecialization-for-young-dancers/

 

 

Dancers of early specialisation/ quality of quantity:

 

‘The trend to put kids who are “serious” about sports in specialized, intensive training is just as common in dance. While it’s hard to hold off on such immersion until later, it would likely benefit young students. “Doing multiple types of movement makes for a better dancer,” Harwood says. “You know your body better and you have more tools in your tool kit. And the variety keeps it interesting and prevents burnout.”’

https://www.dancemagazine.com/young-dancers-specialization/

 

 

‘So when do you know a child is doing enough? Some good indications are that they are happy, healthy and enjoying their dance lessons. Also that they are making steady progress in their dancing and want to continue their learning. When we ask ‘how much is enough?’ we should be thinking in terms of the quality of the student experience and not how much training they do.’

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2019/10/31/ballet-training-how-much-is-enough/

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Doing Dance 1

[Ruby Foo]

Basically, at 11, it's the QUALITY of the lessons that matters most. Ballet is built on some very basic structures ( probably around 10) which taken together with posture and weight placement need to be executed as perfectly as possible in order to then add on and embellish each basic element to create a full ballet repertoire. If those building blocks are in anyway incorrect then it stunts the potential of the student. All those basics need to be accomplished in synchronicity with the development of musicality and performance so that it creates a whole, complete dancer. 

You could be having 6 ballet lessons a week but learning very little ( or at worst faulty skills) in comparison to 3 very good lessons. 
The standard you need to achieve a place at vocational school age 16 will be determined by the school you choose. Most are looking for around Advanced 1 standard.

You would need to be guided by a good teacher as to how to build up to that standard.
A school such as RBS is looking for a semi professional at 16 which is a different level altogether. 
The most important aspect is maintaining health and wellbeing both mentally and physically.

Having time to rest, have fun, develop and maintain friendships, hobbies and family time. Childhood is precious.
 

[Ruby Foo]

Just to add on to my earlier post,

prescribing a certain number of ballet lessons can never really work because the student must determine whether their lessons are hitting the spot and they are learning and achieving and loving the process. If they do, and they are engaged and enjoying the ride, then they will ask for more.

[Dancing_Mae]

If ballet is not in anyway about quantity then why do children go off to vocational school? I understand the quality is the most important, but surely 1 or 2 recreational classes a week won’t make a professional? 
My daughter has a great childhood filled with holidays, days out, family celebrations etc. However when she’s very keen on ballet and wants to do more even if it means starting to drop other dance classes.

[glowlight]

I think you're right @Dancing_Mae that 1 or 2 recreational classes a week won't make a professional, but equally too many classes could break the young dancer. Or if not she may just be doing more hours with little additional gain.

 

With vocational school the hope is you are getting quality as well as increased hours. (I know there'll be people here who will challenge that...let's not go there!)

 

Balance in life is so important. For some families, vocational school helps to provide balance because they can't achieve the quality training needed without travelling long distances which eats into family time and us expensive. But it sounds as if you and your family have a great balance right now which is something to treasure.

 

I think at 11 my dd was probably doing around 3 hours ballet a week - 2 lessons with her local school and 1 associate class. This increased significantly during her teens, but never to the number of hours she would have done if she'd been at vocational school. She went to vocational school at 16.

 

 

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

9 hours ago, Dancing_Mae said:

If ballet is not in anyway about quantity then why do children go off to vocational school? I understand the quality is the most important, but surely 1 or 2 recreational classes a week won’t make a professional? 
My daughter has a great childhood filled with holidays, days out, family celebrations etc. However when she’s very keen on ballet and wants to do more even if it means starting to drop other dance classes.

Doing a range of different styles is very helpful if you want a career in ballet. ISTD modern / Jazz grades are absolutely superb in helping to understand a range of different skills such as momentum, weight, line, speed, control, dynamics, rhythm, space, resistance... and many, many more that are all so important in both Ballet and Contemporary. So my advice is not to focus solely on Ballet. Most Ballet companies are now interested in dancers who are diverse and can bring something extra to their audience  - drama, character, jazz, contemporary - they all add to the 'complete' dancer.

At age 12, my daughter did 3 classes a week. 2 were ballet classes at her own school ( 1 hour each) and 1 associate class on a Saturday. Shortly after this, age 13, she went to vocational school ( as a day girl) because she could not find any further training locally. 
Training and training does not make a dancer. It CAN however help to build strength later on (14-18). -

Be led by your child's teacher who, if trustworthy and competent will encourage and guide your child in the most suitable direction and with the correct number of classes to continue achieving their goals and enjoying their journey.

[Dancing_Mae]

@glowlight Thank you. For any associate/ vocational type training we have to travel quite far, but for us personally vocational school before 16 wouldn’t be an option. I want my daughter at home with us and I don’t think she would thrive in that environment. 
I feel more reassured right now that 2 ballet classes at her studio and associates is enough. 

[Dancing_Mae]

@Ruby Foo Thankyou. She does ITSD modern and tap aswell as RAD ballet. She also does contemporary, acro and commercial. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 hours ago, Dancing_Mae said:

@glowlight Thank you. For any associate/ vocational type training we have to travel quite far, but for us personally vocational school before 16 wouldn’t be an option. I want my daughter at home with us and I don’t think she would thrive in that environment. 
I feel more reassured right now that 2 ballet classes at her studio and associates is enough. 

I was very much like you when my daughter was 11, I knew in my heart that I wanted her home with us (for as long as possible to be honest!). So much can change between that age and 16 that often, I think that if she had been at a full-time vocational school, it would have been harder for her and for us to suddenly change direction because we would have committed time and finance into her being full time. My daughter was so intent in doing more and more dance hours at age 11 because she can see how her peers were going full out so she sometimes felt guilty not doing enough. I’m so glad we didn’t get carried away because now, a few years after, she absolutely loves all the time she has to be a teenager, the nightly catch up she has with us over family dinner, the fact that she can come home every night even after particular tiring days at school, the academic challenge of going to a normal school and thinking about what she wants to do for A levels and uni. She still loves dance and still does 3-4 days of classes and so she is getting the best of both worlds. I am not sure where you are in the country but it’s easier to avoid getting carried away by the intensity of it all (I find) if you’re in an area that’s not as accessible to all these opportunities (there’s always a silver lining!). We used to travel to London every weekend for associates and that was a whole different world. You get very young dancers doing more hours than full time vocational students, dancing every day with tailored physio/gyro programmes, privates with high profile dancers and teachers - it is mind boggling just thinking of how much time and finance commitment it probably takes.

[balletbean]

Just to throw something else into the mix. Consider applying or auditioning where appropriate for an opportunity for performances in a non competitive environment. From the local panto to Easter shows put on by your local am dram society. Short bursts of intense rehearsals and regular lessons rather than a sustained or longed training can result in burn out.  This might all sound rather random as it’s not pure ballet but performing to a live audience receiving that buzz can only but help with a DC. Dancing in front of a mirror in a studio week in week out is important just as much a pianist learning the scales but it’s not the same as performing in front of a live audience. Skills from these performances can also help when attending an audition by treating that also as a performance. It all becomes second nature meeting new people attending new places etc rather than completely out of the norm. 
“Getting comfortable being uncomfortable”.
The other skills acquired are also transferable - Learning from different choreographers outside their own studio, inner workings of an theatre and mixing with performers of all ages. 🤩

Edited December 14, 2024 by balletbean

[Dancing_Mae]

@balletbean My daughter does 2 productions a year with the local theatre school and completely agree that the buzz of performing to a live audience is very motivating. This is actually another reason I asked the question about how many hours at her age, because she doesn’t do a huge amount of ballet because she does other things too. 

[Kerfuffle]

This sounds like fun and that’s an important part of childhood which goes by way too fast! I would keep doing all the things she likes as much as possible and then if the ballet dream becomes the most important thing to her she’ll ask for more of it, there isn’t a rush at 11. My DD was like this, ballet became all consuming from about year 10 and we managed to fit in enough training at a high level for her to be at a very good upper school now. Before that her hobbies were varied and I think have made her a better dancer. 

[Dancing_Mae]

@Neverdancedjustamum I couldn’t bear her going away as a child and she’s definitely the type of child that needs to come home to her parents, especially if she’s had a hard day. We live in Yorkshire so definetly don’t have the same opportunities as they do in London. We do have some really good associate programmes within an hour or 2s drive though, one which she goes to. I feel relieved to here from everyone that If this is something she would like to pursue in the future, she has plenty of time yet before she needs more training.

[glowlight]

There are quite a few opportunities in and around Yorkshire, though travel times can be lengthy depending on where in Yorkshire you live. 

 

It's definitely worth looking at the following if you haven't already.

• Northern Ballet Associates in Leeds https://northernballet.com/academy/professional-training/associate-division
• Northern Ballet Centre for Advanced Training in Leeds https://northernballet.com/academy/professional-training/centre-for-advanced-training
• York Scholarship Centre https://www.yorkshireballetscholarshipcentre.com/about-us/graduates/
• Renaissance Arts Scholars in Leeds http://thescholars.co.uk/about/
• Moorlands Associates in Clitheroe https://moorlandballet.co.uk/programmes/enhancement-course/

 

 

[taxi4ballet]

From my point of view, I wouldn't bother with the commercial or acro unless she particularly loves it and becoming a commercial dancer is something she's considering.

[Dancing_Mae]

@taxi4ballet Do you not think acro would help in anyway with flexibility or strength? 

[LongJourney]

On 15/12/2024 at 16:16, Dancing_Mae said:

@Neverdancedjustamum I couldn’t bear her going away as a child and she’s definitely the type of child that needs to come home to her parents, especially if she’s had a hard day. We live in Yorkshire so definetly don’t have the same opportunities as they do in London. We do have some really good associate programmes within an hour or 2s drive though, one which she goes to. I feel relieved to here from everyone that If this is something she would like to pursue in the future, she has plenty of time yet before she needs more training.

We are in Yorkshire. And DC went to vocational school as opportunities up here were so limited. But I can highly recommend a few things

 

1. Academy of Northern Ballet CAT scheme

2. Royal Balket associates in Leeds.....Miss Hatton is wonderful

3. Cara O'Shea (formerly Northern Ballet CAT programme director and teacher) has set up Pro Dance Tuition. She is a brilliant teacher and has been supporting my DC through upper school audition preparations. Highly recommended.

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Dancing_Mae said:

@taxi4ballet Do you not think acro would help in anyway with flexibility or strength? 

Sorry to jump in taxi. Acro is a tricky one. It can help with flexibility but it can also create many problems too especially with posture and different center of balance and continuity of movement/ resistance etc.

Its lovely to have a few tricks that you can do all your life and bring out if commercial auditions require to see something different but it doesn't necessarily lend itself to classical training.

[Dancing_Mae]

@Ruby Foo thank you. I think whilst she’s still young we will keep the acro because she really enjoys it and it has helped with flexibility (she isn’t naturally flexible at all and has had to work really hard at it) But if she’s still sure ballet is the dream in a year or 2’s time then I think classes like that will go to access more ballet. I have noted what you have said about posture, balance etc and will talk to my daughter and her teacher about it. 

[balletbean]

On 16/12/2024 at 18:44, Ruby Foo said:

Sorry to jump in taxi. Acro is a tricky one. It can help with flexibility but it can also create many problems too especially with posture and different center of balance and continuity of movement/ resistance etc.

Its lovely to have a few tricks that you can do all your life and bring out if commercial auditions require to see something different but it doesn't necessarily lend itself to classical training.

I totally understand where you are coming from. 
However, acro does go beyond the obvious ‘tricks’.  Having that experience can certainly assist a dancer gain inner confidence on their abilities as they become more attune to the feeling of being free from the floor which would occur in lifts and other such movements that find themselves reliant on their partner. 

[Pixiewoo]

On 16/12/2024 at 17:38, LongJourney said:

We are in Yorkshire. And DC went to vocational school as opportunities up here were so limited. But I can highly recommend a few things

 

1. Academy of Northern Ballet CAT scheme

2. Royal Balket associates in Leeds.....Miss Hatton is wonderful

3. Cara O'Shea (formerly Northern Ballet CAT programme director and teacher) has set up Pro Dance Tuition. She is a brilliant teacher and has been supporting my DC through upper school audition preparations. Highly recommended.

 

depending where you are, Howly Ballet is now in Bradford with his own studios and 'project resurgence'. 

 

DD danced with him elsewhere, and on Zoom throughout Lockdown, and he really gave her the confidence and belief that she could do this! 

 

DD only did one associates scheme outside of local dance school, and is now in her second year at Uni studying for a musical theatre degree. 

[SplitSoul]

My DD is 11 and does 4hrs associates, 2hrs coaching and 4hrs grades/pbt/free class a week. She is aiming for vocational school next year. I see what other kids do a week, and I feel totally overwhelmed by the thought of it. Some are out there doing 25hrs plus and competitions every weekend. Personally, I don't think that's healthy.

 

My DD does holiday workshops and intensives, but I like to make sure she has plenty of free time away from dance.

 

She doesn't do acro. A lot of girls do, and I can see how it makes them very bendy. But they struggle the most with technique in a ballet class. Some stick their chests out and also need the most corrections on keeping their hips aligned when they put their leg up (most impressively high, I have to say!). 

 

The competition girls are impressive performers, but I often see it's at the cost of technique. I think both are important, of course, so it's all about getting the balance right!

[glowlight]

7 hours ago, SplitSoul said:

Some are out there doing 25hrs plus and competitions every weekend. Personally, I don't think that's healthy.

 

Wow.. when do they sleep?!

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 hours ago, glowlight said:

 

Wow.. when do they sleep?!

An increasing number are going the homeschool route, to be able to squeeze in more training hours during the day time. Or they don’t get home until late at night. I actually wonder where they find the time to do academic homework! 

[Garnier]

On 23/12/2024 at 23:27, Neverdancedjustamum said:

An increasing number are going the homeschool route, to be able to squeeze in more training hours during the day time. Or they don’t get home until late at night. I actually wonder where they find the time to do academic homework! 

Academic homework - and also where do they find the time to read for pleasure, go to museums, walk in nature, engage in heated teenage conversations about politics and generally do everything that helps one to become a true artist? 
 

I find it really sad to imagine that this is where ballet may be going…

[Colman]

It’s not even clear it’s effective: all the principals I’ve met are far more rounded, interesting artists than that sort of hot housing is going to produce.

[Peony]

There’s one school of thought that everyone should go down the route of doing a bit of everything. Should have a back up plan before they’ve failed. Not everyone is suited to that and if it’s coming from the person themselves I  don’t think there is anything wrong with focussing on a specific interest. I absolutely believe it can lead to great things, of course someone needs to keep an eye on safety and there is a lot to learn with dance apart from the practical part. And the crucial thing is that it needs to come from the person themselves. Our society is set up around the first but that’s not the same across the world

[balletbean]

On 23/12/2024 at 22:27, Neverdancedjustamum said:

An increasing number are going the homeschool route, to be able to squeeze in more training hours during the day time. Or they don’t get home until late at night. I actually wonder where they find the time to do academic homework! 

Senior school life is challenging anyway but many seem to overlook that when in US it’s not all about studio time there’s still a serious amount of academic (course) work for either a Dip Level 6 or BA(Hons). Swapping academic studies from daytime to evening and dancing in reverse alongside independent living does take some getting used to. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by balletbean

[Dancing_Mae]

@SplitSoul That is still far more than my daughter does. Do you mean privates by coaching? My daughter won’t be trying for vocational school until she’s 16 if that’s still the dream. Thank you for the tip about acro, I do think this class may be the one to go soon.

[Dancing_Mae]

@Pixiewoo We’ve booked onto the Easter intensive with Howly ballet and she’s auditioning for associates in the spring.

[Pixiewoo]

2 hours ago, Dancing_Mae said:

@Pixiewoo We’ve booked onto the Easter intensive with Howly ballet and she’s auditioning for associates in the spring.

Lovely news. 

Martin Howland is such an inspiring teacher, your DD will have a wonderful time. 

[SplitSoul]

On 26/12/2024 at 19:51, Dancing_Mae said:

@SplitSoul That is still far more than my daughter does. Do you mean privates by coaching? My daughter won’t be trying for vocational school until she’s 16 if that’s still the dream. Thank you for the tip about acro, I do think this class may be the one to go soon.

It's group coaching. About 10 kids. Just really focusing on technique, no exams or shows or choreo etc. Includes some conditioning as well.