Resisting pressure to go on pointe...

[Garnier]

I have seen several messages on this forum where parents mentioned having resisted pressure from their DDs (and teachers) to go on pointe before the parent felt comfortable age-wise. I'd love advice on how you did this! DD is 10 and the teacher has told her she will get the go-ahead for her first pair of pointes in a few months. I'm not comfortable with this as for me 11 was always a minimum, but am starting to feel myself wavering...and at the same time feeling guilty about the idea!

 

One thing I was thinking about doing was asking for a pre-pointe assessment (not sure where I would do this however) on the assumption that the result would be "no" and that I could use this to argue my case and thus reduce my chance of being seen as a nasty mother (!). But has anyone actually done one and be told their child is NOT ready? I've seen many posts where parents said they wouldn't let their child go on pointe without having been assessed, but no one seems to have said: "my child was assessed by a medical professional and was told to wait another year". What does a pre-pointe assessment even involve?

 

I haven't yet spoken to the teacher directly and want to be prepared for when I see her (which is likely to be in 2-3 weeks). DD apparently did tell her that I wasn't thrilled with the idea as I felt that she "wasn't ready" (DD's words); the teacher apparently checked her feet and said that she absolutely was (again, DD's words).

 

Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

 

[LinMM]

Going on pointe isn’t just about the feet though! It’s how well supported and pulled up in the legs and back the student is so they are not sinking down into the shoe which puts too much pressure on the toes. 
Presumably the teacher would be able to judge this for each pupil including your daughter. 
Ten does seem a bit young I would have thought not before secondary school age so more 11-12 but it really does depend on each child when they are ready and hopefully the teacher is best able to assess this. 
What Grade is your daughter currently working in? I’m pretty sure with RAD you start very small amounts of pointework at the barre when in Grade 5 unless this has changed recently ….other parents/teachers here should be able to help. 
 

I believe 11-12 is thought a general good starting age ( as long as studied ballet for long enough of course so at appropriate grade level etc)  because a child’s bones are thought to be “hard” enough by then. But I’m sure this can be assessed by a physio if you are worried. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by LinMM

[LaCamargo]

You may find this useful:

 

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf

 

As a teacher, I feel that many teaching peers have not kept up with best practice for assessing pointe readiness whereas knowledge informed by dance science is wonderful these days.

 

Also lots of great information may be found here:

 

https://theballetblog.com

My colleagues and I use some of the tests described here:

 

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Pre-Pointe_Assessment

 

 

 

 

 

[drdance]

I fully agree with LaCamargo above. The question I always want people to ask is "WHY?" - what is your DD's teachers motivation for putting her on pointe? Is it for an exam? a show? a competition? Social media? Then ask yourself the question "What happens if I say not yet?" and decide whether the motivation for doing it is more valuable to you and your DD (not the teacher) than the answer to the second question. 

 

For what its worth, Vocational schools such as RBS, Elmhurst and Tring don't let girls go onto pointe until mid-way through year 7, once they have assessed them thoroughly. 

[glowlight]

At the end of the day if you are not comfortable with your child going on pointe yet, it is your absolute right and responsibility to say 'not yet'. 

 

Even if she does meet all the criteria that LaCamargo has shared with you, if you don't feel it's right then that's fine. 

 

I don't think you have to justify it to the teacher, but you may have a very disgruntled daughter when you do this. Perhaps you could help to explain your reticence if you have information on the sort of injuries which can occur if you go on pointe too young. Maybe @LaCamargo or @drdance could help with this as I haven't been able to find much information from Dr Google. Personally I was completely put off from going on pointe to young because my mum used to tell me (often) about her friend who went on pointe when she was eight (in the 1950s I guess) then had to give up ballet in her teens because 'her foot collapsed', but I never really knew what that meant!

 

On the flip side, I think a lot of 10 year old dancers are doing more training than we used to do at that age, so maybe they are stronger. 

[Garnier]

Oh I love that story @glowlight! That is indeed the only argument that my DD is likely to listen to :-).

 

Thanks so much to everyone for the thoughtful responses. I will read the resources with interest and also carefully think about the "why" question, as @drdancesuggests. It's definitely not for social media, as my DD is not on that yet (thank goodness - hopefully that is a long long way away...) and it's not for a show or competition as she doesn't do these. In fact, I wonder what's in it for the teacher quite frankly, as from everything I've read here starting earlier doesn't make you progress faster in the end!

 

@LinMM - we are not in the UK so she doesn't follow RAD or a similar system. She is in her third year of actual ballet training (having done three years before that of "movement to music/pre-ballet") in a sort of pre-vocational programme in a state-run school. I'm not sure what grade that would be but actually now that you bring this question up I may try to find out what the equivalent is! Your comments also prompt me to ask the teacher exactly what this "pointework" would entail (time and difficulty!). I suppose it MAY be quite different if it's just a few minutes once a week (but maybe not?).

 

Thanks again to everyone - I really appreciate the feedback (and support!).

 

[Ruby Foo]

Personally I feel that waiting a year and re assessing would be a good decision.

 

Obviously the science specified above is the all important measure from a physical perspective but from a mental and maturity perspective then waiting a while can only be of benefit. Pointe work is a lot to take on mentally for many reasons. Firstly there's the reality versus the dream ideology which can be a huge shock if you're not mature enough to deal with it and work through it. Then there's  the dancers perspective on how her/ his shoes feels in relation to how the teacher/ shop assistant views the chosen shoes. It's a minefield which takes time, patience and maturity to develop. A dancer needs plenty dance experience to understand what 'feels' right both from a technical and comfortable perspective.

[Garnier]

Great advice @Ruby Foo - at 10, my DD definitely has a lot of mental maturing still to do and I hadn’t thought about that side of things!

[Bluepineapple]

5 hours ago, Garnier said:

Oh I love that story @glowlight! That is indeed the only argument that my DD is likely to listen to :-).

 

Thanks so much to everyone for the thoughtful responses. I will read the resources with interest and also carefully think about the "why" question, as @drdancesuggests. It's definitely not for social media, as my DD is not on that yet (thank goodness - hopefully that is a long long way away...) and it's not for a show or competition as she doesn't do these. In fact, I wonder what's in it for the teacher quite frankly, as from everything I've read here starting earlier doesn't make you progress faster in the end!

 

@LinMM - we are not in the UK so she doesn't follow RAD or a similar system. She is in her third year of actual ballet training (having done three years before that of "movement to music/pre-ballet") in a sort of pre-vocational programme in a state-run school. I'm not sure what grade that would be but actually now that you bring this question up I may try to find out what the equivalent is! Your comments also prompt me to ask the teacher exactly what this "pointework" would entail (time and difficulty!). I suppose it MAY be quite different if it's just a few minutes once a week (but maybe not?).

 

Thanks again to everyone - I really appreciate the feedback (and support!).

 

I was going to ask whether you were in the UK. In France it's very common for girls to start pointes at 9 or 10. It is also not allowed to call it "ballet classes" until an older age - so young ones will do "pre-ballet", "eveil", but the training is similar age wise to what they would do in the UK. I'd enquire what pointework is and take it from there. 

[Pas de Quatre]

If Garnier's DD is in a state vocational ballet school, then I think you have to have confidence in the training. Presumably they have selected the child on talent and ability. Waiting and having assessments often applies to those who are only taking two or three ballet classes a week alongside lots of other genres - tap, jazz, contemporary, acro etc. 

[LinMM]

Isn’t Garnier’s DD too young to be in a state vocational school? I thought these started at year 7 and Garniers DD must be in Year 6. 
Although as not in UK maybe it’s different abroad.

I think if only doing one class a week ten would definitely be too young to go on pointe. 
Many non vocational students however may still be doing 3/4 classes a week at a local ballet studio. 

[Pas de Quatre]

7 hours ago, LinMM said:

Isn’t Garnier’s DD too young to be in a state vocational school?

Garnier said that they are not in UK, other countries do it differently.

[Peony]

It’s not only about strength but also physical maturity, otherwise how young do you go as lots of  young girls are training intensively and are very strong and have good technique. 

[Garnier]

Thanks so much for everyone for the comments.

 

Yes @Bluepineapple we are in France (and DD did indeed do "éveil" and "initiation 1 and 2" before starting ballet proper), and you are right, it does seem as though a lot of girls around 9-10 are on pointe here - although not so much in the state-subsidised schools is the impression I have, at least where we live. I believe (but may be wrong) that at the POB school for example they don't start until later. But yes this is a definitely adding an additional layer as some of DD's schoolfriends who are in private dance schools are already on pointe.

 

@LinMM you are right, DD is in what would be year 6 in the UK! She is not in a vocational school but in a sort of pre-vocational programme that does indeed require an audition and extra classes, and then feeds into a vocational programme (which for various reasons I'm not currently eager to allow her to audition for - completely unrelated to the course, which I'm sure is great, but more because of what it means she would have to give up - she's a lovely dancer but I don't think she is that 1/10,000 that actually succeeds in making a career of it - having said that, I'm very happy to support her in pursuing it as far as she can while maintaining balance and keeping options open). If she were in the 'normal' system, officially I think she would start pointe in 2 years, but it seems that in this programme they start 2 years earlier. DD is also on the younger side of her year group, so I suppose many children in the class will be turning 11 soon.

 

I will definitely ask the teacher what exactly this "pointework" consists of, because it's quite possible that I'm imagining something completely different from what it is.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Garnier

[Ruby Foo]

3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Garnier said that they are not in UK, other countries do it differently.

They do do it differently. But it's not always wholesome to watch! I've seen international youngsters in a few countries doing quite sophisticated pointe work with the most horrendous faults. Very hard to watch. Not saying that's everyone but it's too many who can't claw back that basic technique because it was all rushed too early and too fast. 

[Doing Dance 1]

Summary points from the International Association for Dance Medicine & Science. 
 

GUIDELINES

To summarize the above discussion, we offer the following guidelines for when to begin pointe training:

1. Not before age 12.
2. If the student is not anatomically sound (e.g., insufficient ankle and foot plantar flexion range of motion; poor lower extremity alignment), do not allow pointe work.
3. If *she (he/ they) is not truly pre-professional, discourage pointe training.
4. If *she (he/ they) has weak trunk and pelvic ("core") muscles or weak legs, delay pointe work (and consider implementing a strengthening program).
5. If the student is hypermobile in the feet and ankles, delay pointe work (and consider implementing a strengthening program).
6. If ballet classes are only once a week, discourage pointe training.
7. If ballet classes are twice a week, and none of the above applies, begin in the fourth year of training.

George Balanchine, master of choreography on pointe, has been credited with having created the "baby ballerina." He is reported to have said that there is no reason to get a young dancer up on full pointe if she cannot do anything when she gets there!

 

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf
 

I find the caveat/ excuse of ‘that’s what we do here’ ‘that’s what we’ve always done’ so problematic when there’s a wealth of data for the dangers of starting early. 
What is the perceived advantage of starting early?
Surely the risk to a child’s long term physical health is more important.

Further links from Dance Physiotherapist Lisa Howell,

 

https://theballetblog.com/portfolio/when-can-i-go-en-pointe2/

 

 

*Bullet points amended, 20024 calling! Male & non binary students may wish to study pointe and providing they meet this criteria, should be celebrated for their efforts.

 

 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

The term Baby Ballerinas was invented by UK writer Arnold Haskin to describe the talented trio of up and coming young ballerinas at Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, irina Baronova, Tamara Toumanova and Tatiana Riabouchinska.

[Kerfuffle]

Some girls in year 6 have done much of their growing and are developing into young women, I would imagine that being further along in relation to puberty might be an advantage. Going onto pointe earlier means more adjustment with weight placement as hips broaden and the centre of gravity shifts. 

[taxi4ballet]

5 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Some girls in year 6 have done much of their growing and are developing into young women, I would imagine that being further along in relation to puberty might be an advantage. Going onto pointe earlier means more adjustment with weight placement as hips broaden and the centre of gravity shifts. 

Going onto pointe later on means the dancer is taller and heavier, and particularly for those intending to audition for vocational places against international applicants, they will be further behind in their training.

 

It's a fine line.

[Kerfuffle]

I think 11/12 is plenty young enough, both physically and mentally.  

[Doing Dance 1]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDKSMYzoCmm/?igsh=MWc0bzc1dDc0Mjl1aw==
 

A good recent post on the topic by Dance Physio Luke Abnett. 
 

https://balletphysio.com/about/

I must say I’m continuously shocked by some on this forum who seem to reject the recommendations of Dance Scientists, Physiotherapists & Healthcares Professionals. 

Edited December 7, 2024 by Doing Dance 1

[Sunflower]

The local dance school my daughter attended was so cautious with pointe, a no was a lot more frequent than a yes, and students are kept at pre pointe level for years, and some never go on pointe.

I heartily agree with this very careful and considered approach, as in the first link in particular that @LaCamargo posted above and the links from @Doing Dance 1
 

The flip side of starting much later and more slowly is it’s been a steep learning curve for DD starting full time training at 16 this year. But the fact is she did get offers for vocational training in competitive schools, despite not being as advanced at pointe as others, and with international students who start even earlier. 
 

if we could go back in time, DD would currently say she should have started earlier, because right now it’s tough “catching up”, but I suspect her opinion may change over the next few years 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

@Garnier it must be hard when in an environment where they do start younger to know what the right thing to do is. I hope you are both happy with what you decide. 

Edited December 7, 2024 by Sunflower

[LaCamargo]

@Doing Dance 1 I am always surprised too by the number with outdated views about progressing to pointe (and stretching but that’s for a different thread).  I have found that if young dancers are assessed and given appropriate strengthening and corrective exercises for several months before purchasing pointe shoes, they then find pointe relatively straightforward. Even those who have been delayed due to not being ready soon catch up as their understanding of technique and their strength is greater and their growth spurts have slowed so they are not constantly having to adapt to their changing bodies. And, of course, there are those who should never do pointe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[glowlight]

I think talking to the teacher is an excellent idea. You may also find that when she says 'in a few months' she might actually mean 'in 6 months' - or more. Maybe it's telling that she isn't saying 'go out and buy pointe shoes' now. Maybe she is using delaying tactics too

 

[Garnier]

Haha you are right @glowlight! It may well be the case - DD is (like most girl ballet students her age I assume!) very very eager to start - a situation no doubt exacerbated by those of her school friends who are already on pointe - so she may indeed be reading too much into what the teacher has said!

 

I will see the teacher in a couple of weeks so will have the opportunity to ask that and potentially all the other questions suggested above - equipped with all the resources kindly provided here. Many thanks to everyone!

[Mummy twinkle toes]

My eldest was 10 but turned 11 2 months after starting. She was strong, ideal feet as 3 toes almost same length and good technique. My younger daughter was 13 and found it more difficult as second toe longer.

There is no magic age to start but also check what your daughter will be doing.

In inter foundation RAD, for example there is pointe but very basic exercises at the barre and one in the center, if I remember rightly. They generally did 10-15 minutes at the end of each class so steady. Dds also did Legat ballet which involves variations in the exams so my eldest was around 2 years on pointe before attempting those.