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10 minutes ago, bridiem said:

I think the Ricky Gervais quote is rather trite, I'm afraid. Good critical writing can be very creative and instructive. Besides which there seems to be the (erroneous) assumption that all critical writing is negative criticism. Critics consider and assess what they see, whether their conclusions are positive or negative (or, often, somewhere in between). 

 

Agree: it sounds like there are issues with that particular critic, but a performer writing off criticism - even just negative criticism! - as worthless strikes me as intellectually lazy.

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1 hour ago, bridiem said:

 

I was however surprised to hear her on the radio, because I understand the incident has been reported to the police and surely if there might be criminal charges this kind of public discussion of what happened would be prejudicial? 

I’ve got zero legal knowledge so I honestly don’t know about that side of things. I was just responding more to the idea that she shouldn’t have air time because she somehow caused the incident (?) 

But yes for sure if it could be prejudicial they shouldn’t have aired it 👍🏻

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1 hour ago, FionaE said:

I can’t believe the BBC is giving airtime to a critic who has caused such a response.   They should think about why that is.  

The answer is: She was the victim of a violent assault which included having dog excrement thrown in her face.

 

2 hours ago, FionaE said:

My question in this shocking case … should an employer publish and pay for the reviews of a particular critic, if it is often at odds with the audience? 

Croce, again, when asked if the critic is different from the audience:

"The critic is in the position of the audience. The critic is taking the place of the audience - not of the artist. The critic is definitely on the audience's side of the footlights. That's what that means; it doesn't mean that the critic is representative of the tastes of the audience."

 

If in the end all that matters is audience opinion, then why make a critical distinction between a Vadim Muntagirov and, say, a Kim Kardashian? They're both creative in their ways, they're both popular with audiences and they're both hard workers. If the response is that one is an artist and one is a popular entertainer (of a sort), then I would reply: "Congratulations, you've just exercised the critical function in defiance of audience tastes and opinions."

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47 minutes ago, serenade said:

I’ve got zero legal knowledge so I honestly don’t know about that side of things. I was just responding more to the idea that she shouldn’t have air time because she somehow caused the incident (?) 

But yes for sure if it could be prejudicial they shouldn’t have aired it 👍🏻

 

I don't know either, serenade! It just surprised me.

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“Critics are an eternal mediocrity, living at the expense of genius, either to belittle it or destroy it; a race of insects happily eating away at the foliage of art.” - Bob Johnston, Music producer.  I like that very much, not because critics are destructive (most of them are not), but because without artists, critics would not be there. There should be a least a tiny bit of decency and humbleness on their side, as tiny and miniscule as possible. You might call the German critic in case one of the people who has nothing of that.

 

4 hours ago, FionaE said:

should an employer publish and pay for the reviews of a particular critic, if it is often at odds with the audience ?

 

A critic can be at odds with the audience as often as he/she wants, if in the review he/she can describe believably why. In this particular case, she was also at odds with almost every single one of her colleagues - Goecke received rave reviews in Germany throughout, he is regarded widely as a very important, epochal choreographer.  Yes, at the beginning people were stunned and shocked by his dark, nightmarish works, but it changed rather quickly - all the pictures, the connotations in the movement, the pure artistry of his dynamics, I sometimes sit there completely overwhelmed - which, after watching modern ballet for 40 years and having seen much medicre choreography or wanna-be Forsythe, is a great feeling, believe me.

 

Goecke offered a half-hearted apology in the meantime, for the German version scroll down here: https://www.danceforyou-magazine.com/2023/02/13/hannover-suspendierung-von-ballettdirektor-marco-goecke/

 

The NDT and also Gauthier Dance at Stuttgart will continue to show his work, they stated today. In both companies he is associated choreographer.

https://www.ndt.nl/en/statement-incident-marco-goecke/

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Whilst I agree in principle that it is better to create than to criticise (I have assumed that the critical function mentioned in the quote is intended to reflect the negative side of criticism), this is surely an oversimplification. Not everyone possesses a creative spark and not everyone who does, chooses to use it. A critic's response to a piece of visual, written or performance art is valid and critics are entitled to hold and, within reason, to express their views freely, whether others agree with them or not. Without this freedom we encourage an unacceptable level of censorship and control, a state which, sadly, we seem to be embracing to a frightening degree as of late. And we should not disregard the fact a piece of criticism can be so beautifully, or amusingly, expressed that it becomes a work of creativity in itself.

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45 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Whilst I agree in principle that it is better to create than to criticise (I have assumed that the critical function mentioned in the quote is intended to reflect the negative side of criticism), this is surely an oversimplification. Not everyone possesses a creative spark and not everyone who does, chooses to use it. A critic's response to a piece of visual, written or performance art is valid and critics are entitled to hold and, within reason, to express their views freely, whether others agree with them or not. Without this freedom we encourage an unacceptable level of censorship and control, a state which, sadly, we seem to be embracing to a frightening degree as of late. And we should not disregard the fact a piece of criticism can be so beautifully, or amusingly, expressed that it becomes a work of creativity in itself.

Yes…I am reading through the Clement Crisp collection and his writing is definitely what I would consider as art. He is an exceptional example of what a critic can be.   I can’t imagine there will ever be another of his ilk.  

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I see that this lady is an “Arts Critic”

I’m assuming this means she wrote across the Arts generally not Dance specifically? 

Do we have the same more general thing in UK?  I always thought critics …paid to do so ….were more attached to single Arts like Music , Dance ,Art, Theatre etc in UK? 
It must make a difference if you are at least passionate about the Art you are paid to be a critic of….at least then you have a real vested interest as it were in what is going on in front of you in concert Hall or stage etc. 

This doesn’t mean of course that critics have to like absolutely everything because they are passionate about the Art in general but that passion gives  some degree of authority at least. 
It must be incredibly difficult to have to write as a paid critic …so it’s your job ….about something you may have very little interest in!! 
Still critics suspected of having poor knowledge or love of their subject are usually sussed and discarded or ignored by those who do. 
Unfortunately whatever the rights and wrongs in this case ….and genius or not ….Marco Goecke has demeaned himself with this act ….blurring the lines of fantasy and reality….the latter of which is probably only now sinking in for him. 
A moment of madness which could end up ruining his career. 
 

 

 

 

 





 

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On 14/02/2023 at 10:13, Ian Macmillan said:

Well, the story has spanned the globe now and has reached Hong Kong via New York ( and no doubt other places I've not noticed).  

 

The story has spanned the globe so effectively that my darling 81yo father, who goes to ballet only when dragged by my mother, rang me today to tell me he'd read in the paper a shocking story about the opera director in Hamburg 😂 He doesn't speak German so obvs misunderstood the German way of having opera houses for both ballet and opera, but I'm not quite sure how he migrated the setting from Hannover to Hamburg.

 

Anecdotal evidence from several dance writers, both male and female, is that the person in question has often responded to reviews in odd ways including threatening voicemail and Facebook messages, with a sexual element involved. He apparently never responds to male critics in this fashion.

 

Dancer friends who have performed his works say he is a very strange person but that they usually enjoy dancing his work, just not necessarily the process.

 

Also, @LinMM, arts critics in Australia tend to be generalist these days as well: the print and televisual media choose not to pay for specialists any more.

 

 

Edited by Sophoife
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2 hours ago, LinMM said:

I see that this lady is an “Arts Critic”

I’m assuming this means she wrote across the Arts generally not Dance specifically? 

Do we have the same more general thing in UK?  I always thought critics …paid to do so ….were more attached to single Arts like Music , Dance ,Art, Theatre etc in UK? 
It must make a difference if you are at least passionate about the Art you are paid to be a critic of….at least then you have a real vested interest as it were in what is going on in front of you in concert Hall or stage etc. 

This doesn’t mean of course that critics have to like absolutely everything because they are passionate about the Art in general but that passion gives  some degree of authority at least. 
It must be incredibly difficult to have to write as a paid critic …so it’s your job ….about something you may have very little interest in!! 
Still critics suspected of having poor knowledge or love of their subject are usually sussed and discarded or ignored by those who do. 
Unfortunately whatever the rights and wrongs in this case ….and genius or not ….Marco Goecke has demeaned himself with this act ….blurring the lines of fantasy and reality….the latter of which is probably only now sinking in for him. 
A moment of madness which could end up ruining his career. 
 

 

 

 

 





 


You obviously don’t read the links!

 

Most of the local papers in the UK use critics who cover many genres and who, if they do the job for long enough, may gain a reasonable degree of knowledge.

 

Arts coverage is being reduced worldwide but I must admit to being shocked to find that Sarah L Kaufman had been let go from the Washington Post.

 

We are lucky to have sites like Seeing Dance, Bachtrack, Fjord Review and one or 2 more.

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11 hours ago, Angela said:

Goecke received rave reviews in Germany throughout, he is regarded widely as a very important, epochal choreographer.  Yes, at the beginning people were stunned and shocked by his dark, nightmarish works, but it changed rather quickly - all the pictures, the connotations in the movement, the pure artistry of his dynamics, I sometimes sit there completely overwhelmed - which, after watching modern ballet for 40 years and having seen much medicre choreography or wanna-be Forsythe, is a great feeling, believe me.


This has got me interested Angela! I ignorantly know nothing of his work, might you be able to point me to where I can find a good example of what you are talking about? I don’t mean actual YouTube links (I think we’re not allowed to post those) but names of works or whatever that we can search for that would lead to being able to see some representative work? 
 

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33 minutes ago, Sophoife said:

He apparently never responds to male critics in this fashion.

 

This may have to do with the fact that, at least in Germany, dance criticism is a female business wright now, very few men left.

 

Regarding Clement Crisp, whose writing I really adore, may I add that by his constant trashing of Nederlands Dans Theatre, you missed an important part of modern ballet in the UK for decades.

 

6 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

And we should not disregard the fact a piece of criticism can be so beautifully, or amusingly, expressed that it becomes a work of creativity in itself.

 

You're so right. But how would you like to be the one they laugh about? Having worked on a ballet for a year, with your ideas, with your soul, with your creativity and many many hours of rehearsals, and then somebody discounts it with half a sentence and vitriolic words, just for a pun. That's what I meant with decency towards the artists. We have a proverb in Germany, "Der Ton macht die Musik", which means something like "It's not what you say but how you say it". Some critics can be really rude and hurtful, and Mrs Hüster certainly belongs in that category. Jiri Kylián once wrote a very interesting text about critics and criticism, how artists feel about them:

http://www.jirikylian.com/visuals/text/critics_criticism/

 

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Geoff, for a whole piece try "Äffi by Marco Goecke", that's an early solo.

Another longer piece:  "Australian Ballet in the "Kunstkammer". Johann Strauß - Marco Goecke. BRETT CHYNOWETH"

 

I suppose it's allowed to post official trailers of the companies - if not please delete

https://youtu.be/FTqsDFAuIdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsgGVmE-z1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bzNJl6W_a0

 

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I’d love to know what you think of Hungarian Dance no. 1 …if you come across it Geoff …..think it was around 2018. 

Interesting what you say above Sophoife…..I was nearly going to say in my post above I wonder whether he would have done this to a male critic but thought I’d better not open up

all that topic! 
Jan I do read the links not every day though!! Usually with Dance it does seem to be the same people reviewing for the different mags. etc. But I wouldn’t then know if they were also reviewing for what was on at the National Theatre or the Festival Hall and so on. 


 

 

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I see what the critic meant now, having watched those clips.  I appreciate the skills and artistry of the dancers, but I can only view so much body twitching and despair without wanting to tear my eyeballs out.  To each their own, we all see things differently, but smearing dog faeces in a critic’s face is completely inexcusable. 
 

I do feel for artists when they are lambasted by critics, or damned with faint praise, as is often the case these days, it is crushing for these people who are often highly sensitive.  I’m not sure there is a simple solution though - if you offer your artistic endeavours to the public, people will have opinions.  An artist has to find a way to navigate their way through the process as it is inevitable that some people will not like their work.   Clearly this critic is not a fan of Goecke’s work, as is her prerogative.  Clive Barnes was consistently critical of Macmillan’s work and tenure at the RB, clearly preferring Ashton, but obviously MacMillan never committed an assault on Barnes. 

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2 hours ago, LinMM said:

I’d love to know what you think of Hungarian Dance no. 1 …if you come across it Geoff …..think it was around 2018. 

Marco Goecke created this piece on Shale Wagman and Jun Masuda for their graduation from Académie Princess Grace in 2018.

Here is the link to Shale's post on his Facebook account:

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02iMgXJfKUVdEPyh7Jwsd9L6kSvMB1QaWXzVnjaiCF2hysDR9z8cNQaUtk8Li4dkEMl&id=100002039269803

 

I like it very much. Yes, a) because it shows the artistry of these young students, 

b) also it seems to be created "against the music", as @LinMMhas stated, to me, it isn't. It's just not a nice smooth choreo, as you would expect.

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5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

Arts coverage is being reduced worldwide but I must admit to being shocked to find that Sarah L Kaufman had been let go from the Washington Post.

 

So am I.  I hadn't realised :(

 

4 hours ago, Angela said:

Regarding Clement Crisp, whose writing I really adore, may I add that by his constant trashing of Nederlands Dans Theatre, you missed an important part of modern ballet in the UK for decades.

 

Did we really?  I thought NDT had been fairly regular visitors to Sadler's Wells.

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Maybe we should stop talking about ballet when it comes to the art form of dance.

 

In my opinion, Classical Ballet should be seen as just one possible form of artistic expression through dance, but not as the only true one, no better or worse than others such as Tanztheater, Modern Dance or Modern Ballet.

 

Of course tastes differ and there is nothing to criticize if you don't like something. Sometimes you need more time to absorb or understand new, unfamiliar things. Sometimes you don't get access at all. Especially since dance, as an art form that is perceived more through body language instincts than through intellectual, word-based understanding, makes it particularly difficult to subsequently put the feelings into words.

 

In this respect, Ms. Hüster is not to be criticized if she doesn't know what to do with Marco Goecke's choreographies or with the way he expresses himself through dance. In my opinion, however, it is objectionable if she publicly announces this lack of understanding with derogatory terms in a national newspaper.

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24 minutes ago, NiniGabriel said:

Maybe we should stop talking about ballet when it comes to the art form of dance.

 

In my opinion, Classical Ballet should be seen as just one possible form of artistic expression through dance, but not as the only true one, no better or worse than others such as Tanztheater, Modern Dance or Modern Ballet.

 

Of course tastes differ and there is nothing to criticize if you don't like something. Sometimes you need more time to absorb or understand new, unfamiliar things. Sometimes you don't get access at all. Especially since dance, as an art form that is perceived more through body language instincts than through intellectual, word-based understanding, makes it particularly difficult to subsequently put the feelings into words.

 

In this respect, Ms. Hüster is not to be criticized if she doesn't know what to do with Marco Goecke's choreographies or with the way he expresses himself through dance. In my opinion, however, it is objectionable if she publicly announces this lack of understanding with derogatory terms in a national newspaper.

 

Or, perhaps she understands his work perfectly well and thinks it's very poor.

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This thread made me think of the old Vincent Price movie “Theatre of Blood” wherein a failed actor exacts fatal revenge on the critics who, in his view, ruined his career.  It’s as camp as a row of tents and unintentionally hilarious. 
 

I have also been re-reading “No Turn Unstoned”, edited by Diana Rigg. A wonderful collection of theatre critiques that show how negative reviews can be witty and clever without being nasty or derogatory.  A joy.  

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5 hours ago, Angela said:

 

  12 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

And we should not disregard the fact a piece of criticism can be so beautifully, or amusingly, expressed that it becomes a work of creativity in itself.

5 hours ago, Angela said:

 

5 hours ago, Angela said:

 

You're so right. But how would you like to be the one they laugh about? Having worked on a ballet for a year, with your ideas, with your soul, with your creativity and many many hours of rehearsals, and then somebody discounts it with half a sentence and vitriolic words, just for a pun. That's what I meant with decency towards the artists. We have a proverb in Germany, "Der Ton macht die Musik", which means something like "It's not what you say but how you say it". Some critics can be really rude and hurtful, and Mrs Hüster certainly belongs in that category. Jiri Kylián once wrote a very interesting text about critics and criticism, how artists feel about them:

http://www.jirikylian.com/visuals/text/critics_criticism/

 

 

 

I do get your point Angela, but dismissive criticism of our ideas and hard work is something that most of us have to put up with at work and we deal with it without throwing the toys out of the pram - or, as in this case, resorting to something much worse!

 

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9 minutes ago, Sim said:

This thread made me think of the old Vincent Price movie “Theatre of Blood” wherein a failed actor exacts fatal revenge on the critics who, in his view, ruined his career.  It’s as camp as a row of tents and unintentionally hilarious. 
 

I have also been re-reading “No Turn Unstoned”, edited by Diana Rigg. A wonderful collection of theatre critiques that show how negative reviews can be witty and clever without being nasty or derogatory.  A joy.  

 

I haven't read 'No Turn Unstoned'. Am thinking I will have to get a copy.

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Well, thank you to Ian for the 2 articles on the subject in the links section today – a great read which did put the incident and the artist/critic relationship somewhat into perspective for me...

 

However, I will never be very keen on the style of criticism practiced by W. Hüster (and others, no doubt) which, so it seems to me me, at any rate, often tends to be more about aggrandizing herself and her powers of judgement than on critiquing her actual subject.

 

Having said which, nothing could ever justify a dog-poo facial, to use The Times’ phrase or excuse this “moment of madness” as LinMM kindly put it above.

 

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I don't have the Diana Rigg compendium mentioned above, but can recommend Nicolas Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective -  a collection of critical responses to various composers down the years.  Not surprisingly, there are quite a number of reactions to that first night of Rite of Spring in May 1913.  

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"Germany’s journalists’ union responded by saying: “An artist must endure criticism, even if it may seem excessive. Anyone who reacts to criticism with violence is not acceptable.”
From here:
https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/hannover-ballet-director-dog-excrement-critic-face/

Violence is a no go of course. But this is my question: how long must an artist ensure excessive (and demeanoring) criticism? It's being said that journalists shall cultivate a sort of self-control - my impression is that this doesn't work for Mrs. Huester.

Edited by Sabine0308
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I agree that any critic should at least try and meet an artist half way if it starts getting to more than two or three Pieces  they just hate. Even if you generally dislike an artists work no work is all bad all the time so they should try and find something constructive to say or things they actually did like here and there. 
Total almost automatic denigration of an artist is not something to admire in the end just some sort of bad habit one has fallen into. 

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14 hours ago, LinMM said:

A moment of madness which could end up ruining his career. 

 

Surely rather more than a moment? Wasn't this a premeditated act? Or is he the sort of transgressive artist who packs some s**t before setting off just in case he will need some later?

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25 minutes ago, Geoff said:

Wasn't this a premeditated act? Or is he the sort of transgressive artist who packs some s**t before setting off just in case he will need some later?

 

He has a dog which he walked during the intermission. In Germany you have to collect the dog poo and throw it in a waste basket, I guess that's what he intended. A German article says "He just wanted to talk to her, but her reaction was "aggressive, arrogant and condescending"." No justification, just an explanation.

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19 minutes ago, OnePigeon said:

Are there not any bins around in that area?  I don’t know how anyone could put a bag of excrement in their pocket.  It’s just all so gross.

 

"Mein alter Dackel hatte ein Häufchen gemacht und ich hatte das dann in eine Tüte gepackt und wollte das draußen entsorgen."
 

Translation:
My old dachshund had made a dump and I had then put that in a bag and was going to dispose it outside.

Source:
https://www.ndr.de/kultur/buehne/Marco-Goecke-bitte-um-Verzeihung-Schaendliche-Handlung-im-Affekt,goecke114.html

Edited by Sabine0308
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8 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

Well - all I can say is that next to this, the Adolphe Binder saga at Wuppertal and the revelations about Igor Zelensky and Putin's daughter, the British dance scene seems very tame!

I hope I never read news like about Liam Scarlett again. It came to my mind re the sensitive Goecke, to be honest. 

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