Climate Change Debate

[Fonty]

There were one or two very interesting posts about this on the ENO thread.  I find this topic fascinating, and would be happy to learn more if there are people on this forum who know something about it.  Perhaps the moderators could shift over some of the posts that are not relevant to ENO funding on to here?  I listened to the video of  Konstantin Kisin speaking at a debate.  The one thing I gleaned from that is that a huge percentage of the population of Russia have no proper toilet facilities, which shocked me.  

 

I saw this article in the Guardian on the subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/23/no-miracles-needed-prof-mark-jacobson-on-how-wind-sun-and-water-can-power-the-world

 

[zxDaveM]

where to start????

[Fonty]

3 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

where to start????

 With educating an ignoramus like me?  I would point out that I do not own a gas guzzling car, nor do I over heat my house.  However, I am not going to have an air source heat pump.  They are ugly, noisy, and would take up too much room in my little patio garden. 

[LinMM]

Russia is so huge that it doesn’t surprise me that so many there have poor facilities. There was a very good programme on BBC 4 last night called 

Russia 1985-1999 TraumaZone. 
It was a lot of little clips of films from all over Russia and you had to concentrate as it zapped around a bit but then came back to various stories. 
I should imagine in many parts of Russia the problems of climate change are the last thing on their minds. 
Every so often it would say how far the place being filmed was from Moscow. There was one place in Siberia which was 4,500 miles from Moscow!! Is that possible? Even I didn’t realise just how big the country is. There seemed to be about a 200 year difference between some parts and the big cities like Moscow. 

I think we must work towards reducing  climate change and faster than we may think necessary however you can’t pretend we are further forward than we are. If everybody bought an electric car tomorrow the country couldn’t cope because there are woefully too few charging places for cars…especially as they also break down fairly frequently it seems so even the ones we have are not always working properly. 
I think some people can get a bit over zealous and want us to be at a place we are not and so have impractical demands. That’s not to say we don’t need more sense of urgency but protests should be aimed more at possible practical solutions….why for example has Britain just lost a big battery manufacturing factory so now we only have ONE in operation. Countries in Europe seem to be a head of the game in this very practical sense. We won’t get more electric cars  on the road at a reasonable cost if there are no factories producing the batteries. Just one aspect. 

[zxDaveM]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 With educating an ignoramus like me?  I would point out that I do not own a gas guzzling car, nor do I over heat my house.  However, I am not going to have an air source heat pump.  They are ugly, noisy, and would take up too much room in my little patio garden. 

 

they are getting better - and as with anything, the commoner they become, the cheaper and sleeker they get. Air heat exchange pumps rely on having the house properly insulated too - something the UK is somewhat backward on.

Yes, we can all 'do our bit' with changing our behaviour slightly, being more energy efficient and greener etc, but ultimately reducing the gases that cause the climate crisis will rely on governments actions through the world, rather than individual people. Though individuals need to pressure their representatives as best they can

[zxDaveM]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 With educating an ignoramus like me?

 

Do you mean about global warming and the climate emergency itself? How it is happening, that sort of thing?

[Fonty]

20 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

Do you mean about global warming and the climate emergency itself? How it is happening, that sort of thing?

 

No, I think I get that bit!  It was more about the potential solutions.  At the moment, there is a lot of talk, but not much action.  It is all very well individual households turning their thermostats down and making sure their houses have better insulation.  However, ground source heat pumps are extremely efficient, but hugely expensive to fit in old houses.  Should it be compulsory for all new builds?  They have to dig an enormous hole to build in the first place, after all.  Then that might bring the price down for everyone.

Having said that, if industry is taking no notice,  or countries such as China and India are polluting so massively, then we are not going to achieve very much globally, I don't think.  

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Fonty

[Scheherezade]

2 hours ago, Fonty said:

 With educating an ignoramus like me?  I would point out that I do not own a gas guzzling car, nor do I over heat my house.  However, I am not going to have an air source heat pump.  They are ugly, noisy, and would take up too much room in my little patio garden. 

 

And my plumber has warned me off them on the basis that they do not generate anything like enough heat. Not a happy alternative for the very elderly at risk of hypothermia.

[zxDaveM]

2 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

At the moment, there is a lot of talk, but not much action. 

 

It is all very well individual households turning their thermostats down and making sure their houses have better insulation.  However, ground source heat pumps are extremely efficient, but hugely expensive to fit in old houses.  Should it be compulsory for all new builds?  They have to dig an enormous hole to build in the first place, after all.  

Having said that, if industry is taking no notice,  or countries such as China and India are polluting so massively, then we are not going to achieve very much globally, I don't think.  

 

 

 

aye, and there lies the rub. Those COP meetings should be renamed COP-out meetings! They just seem to agree on something to collectively ignore, or ignore in their 'self interest' (even where that self interest is actually damaging to themselves)

It would be helpful indeed, if all new builds were properly insulated, with inbuilt heat pumps and the like - but lobbyists have the measure of the government so that it won't get enforced, as these 'upgrades' are passed onto the purchaser, if they can afford to have that done when they move in

China has been moving in the right direction, as it has huge solar forms, and is I believe, the largest manufacturer of solar panels. But yes, it and India are still hugely polluting (as is the USA, despite many of it's citizens demanding more action as they burn and/or flood, the obstructionist republican party seems destined to burn the world)

 

[zxDaveM]

11 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

 

And my plumber has warned me off them on the basis that they do not generate anything like enough heat. Not a happy alternative for the very elderly at risk of hypothermia.

 

The house needs to be properly insulated (wall cavity, loft insulation, at least double glazed windows/doors. etc) for them to be viable, which is a major problem in the UK

[Fonty]

It must be a rare house that doesn't have double glazing these days, isn't it?  My friend doesn't, but she lives in a Grade 2 listed place.  It has a thatched roof, and she says it is marvellous - warm in the winter, but beautifully cool in the summer.  

 

I do wonder about the trend for open plan living.  I love having rooms with doors I can close, makes so much difference.  Maybe with fuel bills going up everyone will start employing builders to put up walls again.  

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

 

I do wonder about the trend for open plan living.  I love having rooms with doors I can close, makes so much difference.  Maybe with fuel bills going up everyone will start employing builders to put up walls again.  

 

I've wondered the same Font.

[alison]

10 hours ago, Fonty said:

However, ground source heat pumps are extremely efficient, but hugely expensive to fit in old houses.  Should it be compulsory for all new builds?  They have to dig an enormous hole to build in the first place, after all. 

 

I was told 150 feet deep, I think it was, by some company which fitted them - unless it was metres.

[AdageKitty]

https://clintel.org/there-is-no-climate-emergency-a-message-to-the-people/

[zxDaveM]

13 minutes ago, AdageKitty said:

https://clintel.org/there-is-no-climate-emergency-a-message-to-the-people/

 

I haven't read so much drivel in a long time

[AdageKitty]

Yet, as someone recently said, "there is nothing more offensive and obscene than billionaires flying private jets to a remote Swiss village, dining on Wagyu filets and the world's finest wines, while telling you to turn down your thermostat, stay within 20 miles of your home and eat insects for dinner". Each to their own.

[zxDaveM]

31 minutes ago, AdageKitty said:

"there is nothing more offensive and obscene than billionaires flying private jets to a remote Swiss village, dining on Wagyu filets and the world's finest wines, while telling you to turn down your thermostat, stay within 20 miles of your home and eat insects for dinner".

 

that I agree with

[bangorballetboy]

17 hours ago, alison said:

 

I was told 150 feet deep, I think it was, by some company which fitted them - unless it was metres.

 

That's the equivalent of a 14 or 15 storey building!!!  If it were metres, that would be more than 2.5 times the depth of the deepest tube station (which, as any fule kno, is Hampstead).

[Fonty]

3 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I haven't read so much drivel in a long time

 

I found some of the conclusions questionable, to put it mildly.  What on earth point was he making with regard to Oslo and Singapore?  So human beings can live in both hot and cold climates, and therefore global warming doesn't matter?   He might just as well had used the same argument about penguins living in the Antarctic and London Zoo.

[alison]

If you look a little further, the organisation appears to consist of two people, one retired professor and an environmental journalist.

[LinMM]

I must admit I was wondering if any builder would be wanting to dig all these 150 feet holes to bury the heat pumps on new builds! But I thought they were more or less free standing anyway 🤔

[Fonty]

Ground source heat pumps explained:

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/ground-source-heat-pumps

[LinMM]

Actually looking at the ground source heat pumps ( as opposed to air source ones) they just don’t look very practical. They seem to take up far too much space in any garden and a major problem once buried if they go wrong!! 
No Thankyou. 
It looks like you can have horizontal ones which take up the room but not buried so deeply and vertical ones which appear to take up less garden space in one way but would require a much deeper hole. 
We do actually need a new boiler ….our Vaillant was quite modern 23 years ago ( the years just seem to slip by!)  but it’s struggling at the moment and we’ve been told it’s too expensive to repair so might as well get a new one!! That was three months ago but it’s just about managing to give one hot bath or shower a day still!! 
But even with a Government grant I wouldn’t go with a heat pump at the moment. 
Also even  the “modern”  Vaillant boilers are not as well made as our now old one is. 

[LinMM]

I posted before seeing your post Fonty! I had just googled heat pumps as realised I wasn’t too sure about the two types. But now having seen both I can’t honestly say I’m keen on either.  
Our bungalow was built in the 60’s and the garden is above the house as we are on a steep hill. This means there’s a lot of walls and concrete ( crazy paving) around to support the garden absolutely not practical for the ground source ones. 
I think even with new builds they look cumbersome. 
I honestly can’t see them catching on in a really big way. 
 

[alison]

I have been told by several people that hydrogen rather than electricity is the way to go, anyway.

[Pas de Quatre]

Another problem with heat pumps is that they will not run with existing pipework and radiators. All will have to be replaced. It is mentioned towards the end of the link Fonty posted, but how many people read to the end?

[zxDaveM]

11 hours ago, alison said:

I have been told by several people that hydrogen rather than electricity is the way to go, anyway.

 

as long as it's 'green' hydrogen, rather than 'blue'...

[LinMM]

Oh no not another internet search for the difference between green and blue hydrogen. 

Mind you it’s surprising what you learn even from listening to LBC 

James 0 Brian used the word “bloviate” and we were sure he had just made it up but no it’s a real word and expresses its meaning really well!! 

 

[Fonty]

22 hours ago, LinMM said:

Oh no not another internet search for the difference between green and blue hydrogen. 

Mind you it’s surprising what you learn even from listening to LBC 

James 0 Brian used the word “bloviate” and we were sure he had just made it up but no it’s a real word and expresses its meaning really well!! 

 

 

That is a fantastic word.  

[Melody]

On 31/01/2023 at 08:09, zxDaveM said:

 

they are getting better - and as with anything, the commoner they become, the cheaper and sleeker they get. Air heat exchange pumps rely on having the house properly insulated too - something the UK is somewhat backward on.

Yes, we can all 'do our bit' with changing our behaviour slightly, being more energy efficient and greener etc, but ultimately reducing the gases that cause the climate crisis will rely on governments actions through the world, rather than individual people. Though individuals need to pressure their representatives as best they can

It's sad that we lost so many years of seriously addressing this problem, while governments were encouraging people to use energy-efficient light bulbs and increase their insulation and suggesting that that was all we needed to do, when really we've needed governments to step up and do some large-scale stuff all along. They're doing better now, but all indications are that it's too little too late.

[Melody]

On 01/02/2023 at 09:39, zxDaveM said:

 

I haven't read so much drivel in a long time

It's really depressing that stuff like that is still being produced in great volume and still has a wide audience. Honestly, I think we've gone past the point of no return, and I'm sort of glad I'm old and have no children or grandchildren. I don't even want to think about what's going to happen when the resource wars really get going.

[zxDaveM]

4 hours ago, Melody said:

...I think we've gone past the point of no return, and I'm sort of glad I'm old and have no children or grandchildren. I don't even want to think about what's going to happen when the resource wars really get going.

 

I'm feeling the same way. The generations 2 or 3 along the line won't be thanking this current generation for sure