Prix de Lausanne 2023

[Kanangra]

Yes I've noticed it in the last couple of years. Our local eisteddfod introduced it as part of their senior championship  (it used to be a requirement to dance a classical and either Demi, contemporary or Character). How many hours does your dancer do? I've been very surprised to hear that these kinds of hours aren't universal!

[Beezie]

@KanangraWe are at a pre-pro school in Continental Europe.  8-11 yrs do 2hrs a week.  11-13 (pre point) do 3hrs a week, and may add some private instruction if they need to work on specific exercises for pointe.  At 14+ the hours get very heavy, if children want to continue a professional trajectory.  At this point, the best look at vocational schools (usually with boarding.)

 

Coming from US, the hours prior to age 14 are significantly lighter.  I think it is assumed that the younger kids are trying other sports, which lead to full body conditioning.  

Both ways seem to make fine dancers.  European dancers who ‘make it’ tend to also dance longer.  I always wondered if this was based on the structure of their contracts or less injuries due to less rigorous training at a young age.  I also suspect the ‘self selection’ is higher in Continental Europe.  There is less of an “everyone can do this” attitude by 11+, and clear teacher-preferences start to develop for children with the right anatomy.  (I’m not certain about Australia, but it is rare for a US teacher to ever tell a student or parent that the child is not fit for ballet.  That conversation may happen, but not until rather late…like late teens.)

 

The downside is that there seem to be fewer opportunities for “in between” training at 14+ in Continental Europe.  In the US, there are plenty of schools that can continue to challenge a dancer through various stages of pointe and performance if they want to take a ‘middle road’ and still maintain dance as an after school activity.  This is a nice option if they want to gain competence without becoming professional….or if they want to push the decision to later in their teen years.  They could still potentially catch up.

 

Here, in continental Europe, the recreational dance programs for 14+ are VERY recreational.  …as in maybe only 2x per week.  The teens may experiment with pointe shoes, but without much technique.  If they go this route, it is clearly just for fun and they will never bridge the gap to something more.

 

Looking at UK, I think it is different.  It seems like 14+ can still get high quality dance training outside of a vocational school….though that may be location dependent.  I am sure any city always has a better number of opportunities.

 

I feel like I post about this a lot, but I also wasn’t expecting how different dance culture would be when taking an expat assignment.  Keeping my daughter in dance has felt like a cultural challenge.  As a mom, you think you know how it works.  Then you move and the rules/conventions are completely different…..and you are trying to be the ‘go between’ so that your child’s experience is more smooth.

[DD Driver]

Ok so very different programs occurring around the world.

 

Maybe the large no. of competitions/Eisteddfods in Australia give part-time dancers more opportunities & the friendships to continue dancing throughout their schooling - even when they have no intention of going professional. Probably it is most similar to the US culture.  I also know girls who have moved out of ballet and put the same number of hours into Contemporary dance, athletics, swimming, team sports etc

 

Teachers here will tell a young ballet student that their facility is not perfect for ballet e.g. turn out, leg/torso proportions etc.  Still they also say that they don't know what someone will look like at 16.  As for weight, by 14/15 they might recommend a dietician.  There's a clue.

[Sophoife]

9 hours ago, DD Driver said:

Even schools associated with a company are expensive - the Australian Ballet School (ABS) is around $15k AUD and Boarding $21k AUD.

 

That's cheaper than a mainstream boarding school 🤣 

 

For 2023, levels 5 and 6 are $15,000 each, level 7 is $20,000 ($15,500 in 2022) and level 8 not available but was $16,000 in 2022 so probably around $21,000 in 2023.

 

Student loans from the government are only available for levels 7 and 8.

 

2022 boarding fees at ABS were $21,000.

 

Queensland Ballet Academy is cheaper, up to $13,890 per year for the top level, with the pre-professional students asked for $13,965 for the first and $8,380 for the second year.

 

No boarding facility, but homestay is $328 per week, plus a holiday holding fee of $56 per week.

 

By way of comparison, for 2023, day school only, prep/grade 1 at Scotch College Melbourne is $30,612 for the year. For five year olds. For years 9-12 it's $38,280 PLUS $30,420 for boarding.

 

Methodist Ladies' College is charging $35,910 for years 11-12 PLUS $32,610 for boarding.

 

These examples used as a niece and two nephews did years 9-12 at these schools. Scholarships are available but let's just say, as my sister said a few years ago, her kids aren't going to be Rhodes Scholars any time soon 🤣

 

Student loans are not available for this type of school.

[DD Driver]

Hmmm that's a vicious price hike 22 v 23 for level 7!

ABS boarding is much cheaper by comparison to private school boarding - although girls share rooms at ABS.  

 

ABS students go to VCASS state school for academics for younger years e.g. 16 & under, so that is an important comparison with a private academic school.  State schools ask for a 'contribution' but don't seem to chase it up.  I've had daughters at both.  In our case, we did see a $30k difference in what was delivered LOL (I can laugh now)

Edited January 14, 2023 by DD Driver

[Kerfuffle]

3 hours ago, Beezie said:

@KanangraWe are at a pre-pro school in Continental Europe.  8-11 yrs do 2hrs a week.  11-13 (pre point) do 3hrs a week, and may add some private instruction if they need to work on specific exercises for pointe.  At 14+ the hours get very heavy, if children want to continue a professional trajectory.  At this point, the best look at vocational schools (usually with boarding.)

 

Coming from US, the hours prior to age 14 are significantly lighter.  I think it is assumed that the younger kids are trying other sports, which lead to full body conditioning.  

Both ways seem to make fine dancers.  European dancers who ‘make it’ tend to also dance longer.  I always wondered if this was based on the structure of their contracts or less injuries due to less rigorous training at a young age.  I also suspect the ‘self selection’ is higher in Continental Europe.  There is less of an “everyone can do this” attitude by 11+, and clear teacher-preferences start to develop for children with the right anatomy.  (I’m not certain about Australia, but it is rare for a US teacher to ever tell a student or parent that the child is not fit for ballet.  That conversation may happen, but not until rather late…like late teens.)

 

The downside is that there seem to be fewer opportunities for “in between” training at 14+ in Continental Europe.  In the US, there are plenty of schools that can continue to challenge a dancer through various stages of pointe and performance if they want to take a ‘middle road’ and still maintain dance as an after school activity.  This is a nice option if they want to gain competence without becoming professional….or if they want to push the decision to later in their teen years.  They could still potentially catch up.

 

Here, in continental Europe, the recreational dance programs for 14+ are VERY recreational.  …as in maybe only 2x per week.  The teens may experiment with pointe shoes, but without much technique.  If they go this route, it is clearly just for fun and they will never bridge the gap to something more.

 

Looking at UK, I think it is different.  It seems like 14+ can still get high quality dance training outside of a vocational school….though that may be location dependent.  I am sure any city always has a better number of opportunities.

 

I feel like I post about this a lot, but I also wasn’t expecting how different dance culture would be when taking an expat assignment.  Keeping my daughter in dance has felt like a cultural challenge.  As a mom, you think you know how it works.  Then you move and the rules/conventions are completely different…..and you are trying to be the ‘go between’ so that your child’s experience is more smooth.

Getting a good amount of training hours is very difficult in the U.K. if not at vocational school  particularly outside London. There are associate classes at weekends and a few CAT schemes but not many and it’s still hard to make up the hours. The syllabuses at local schools in my opinion are limiting too - rigid with the same exercises to the same music repeated in every class. Over 14 it’s a struggle to get high level training for most as typically there are only a couple of girls good enough in each school and they are spread out even  in a big city and those schools like to keep their best pupils. My daughter is at a very unusual school that  trains in a completely different way and she is extremely lucky because she can still live at home and get amazing training.   I think your description of training continental Europe is pretty similar to here, the gap between vocational and  non vocational is noticeable  . USA seems to offer more opportunities post 14 although I have heard it’s extremely expensive. 

[Laura_ballet]

32 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Getting a good amount of training hours is very difficult in the U.K. if not at vocational school  particularly outside London. There are associate classes at weekends and a few CAT schemes but not many and it’s still hard to make up the hours. The syllabuses at local schools in my opinion are limiting too - rigid with the same exercises to the same music repeated in every class. Over 14 it’s a struggle to get high level training for most as typically there are only a couple of girls good enough in each school and they are spread out even  in a big city and those schools like to keep their best pupils. My daughter is at a very unusual school that  trains in a completely different way and she is extremely lucky because she can still live at home and get amazing training.   I think your description of training continental Europe is pretty similar to here, the gap between vocational and  non vocational is noticeable  . USA seems to offer more opportunities post 14 although I have heard it’s extremely expensive. 

What school does your child train at out of interest thanks 

[Sophoife]

16 hours ago, DD Driver said:

girls share rooms at ABS.  

 

Girls share rooms at MLC too, except for year 12. And do their own laundry.

 

Boys at Scotch share rooms too, except for year 12. And have their laundry done for them.

[DD Driver]

The list of coaches for PdL 2023 has come out

https://www.prixdelausanne.org/artistic-team-2023/

 

I am looking forward to watching the coaching with Elisabeth Platel & Monique Loudieres from Paris Opera Ballet & its school.  Vaganova training seems to be on the increase but these 2 women are true Classical etoiles.

 

[Pas de Quatre]

That seems a strange observation, implying that Vaganova training is somehow not a true classical training! Or am I misunderstanding your point? My own training was Vaganova and all my professional  contracts were in France, alongside dancers who had trained at the POB and sometimes with ADs who had been Etoiles there. Any minor differences in training methods were hardly noticeable and never an issue.

[DD Driver]

22 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

That seems a strange observation, implying that Vaganova training is somehow not a true classical training! Or am I misunderstanding your point? My own training was Vaganova and all my professional  contracts were in France, alongside dancers who had trained at the POB and sometimes with ADs who had been Etoiles there. Any minor differences in training methods were hardly noticeable and never an issue.

Sorry - I'm saying they are Classical in the POB style.  Not better or worse, just different.

Sounds like it is negligible in your experience.  In terms of training, my DD has done summer schools with Vaganova (& Bolshoi) teachers as well as RBS.  She found them different.  

 

Interesting question, though.  How training, for example, from John Cranko v. POB v. RBS differ(?)

Edited January 19, 2023 by DD Driver

[Neverdancedjustamum]

43 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

Sorry - I'm saying they are Classical in the POB style.  Not better or worse, just different.

Sounds like it is negligible in your experience.  In terms of training, my DD has done summer schools with Vaganova (& Bolshoi) teachers as well as RBS.  She found them different.  

 

Interesting question, though.  How training, for example, from John Cranko v. POB v. RBS differ(?)

I was speaking (separately) to a couple of dancers who between them have experience of both vocational school training and company work in top schools and companies in France, Russia, North America and the U.K. (including RBS) and both have mentioned to me and my DD, several times in the context of training and technique, that there are marked difference in the emphasis and focus of the training across countries and styles. Particular schools would tell you to “whack your leg up as high as possible” and some schools would be almost obsessively into the details (precise placement of even the eye line and every finger), some schools make even barre work look like a performance, some would focus on strength and dynamics. The feeling I get from both is that personally, they preferred and enjoyed the French style the most but these are personal preferences from two dancers fortunate enough to experience such vast array of techniques, schools and companies.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[LinMM]

I had a teacher who emphasised that dancing starts at the barre and is right at the beginning of any training. His idea seemed to be that you don’t just plod away for years and then expect the “Dance” to suddenly appear miraculously later on! So you danced the barre as well as used for that extra support when acquiring sound technique. He was a bit Russian, a bit French and a bit Cecchetti somehow. 


 

[Pas de Quatre]

There are so many influences across the world between companies & schools that it is impossible to rigidly categorise them. Directors of the POB school are always former dancers with the company. However, the company has had many choreographers and directors from elsewhere. Alicia Alonso mounted Giselle and Sleeping Beauty in the 1970s and of course Nureyev was Director from 1983 to 1989, both from Vaganova training. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

42 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I had a teacher who emphasised that dancing starts at the barre and is right at the beginning of any training. His idea seemed to be that you don’t just plod away for years and then expect the “Dance” to suddenly appear miraculously later on! So you danced the barre as well as used for that extra support when acquiring sound technique. He was a bit Russian, a bit French and a bit Cecchetti somehow. 


 

I find that in YAGP and PdL masterclasses I’ve seen, those who make barre work look like a performance stood out and were immediately noticeable. It truly is lovely to watch barre work that flows, rather than ‘stop/start’, if that makes sense.  I have seen some teachers and coaches who have a knack for putting together the most exquisite barre work combinations, such a refreshing change from the more tedious repetitive barre exercises I have seen in class. I know there is a lot of repetition involved in class but from the point of view of someone who’s never danced, I can immediately see which teachers’ classes I love watching as an outside observer with no dance background whatsoever. PdL classes are always a joy to watch, in particular Elisabeth Platel’s.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

There are so many influences across the world between companies & schools that it is impossible to rigidly categorise them. Directors of the POB school are always former dancers with the company. However, the company has had many choreographers and directors from elsewhere. Alicia Alonso mounted Giselle and Sleeping Beauty in the 1970s and of course Nureyev was Director from 1983 to 1989, both from Vaganova training. 

That’s true, especially at company level but also perhaps the last 1-2 years of training. However, I always found younger students of the Vaganova and POBS quite distinctive in their style and overall look. Perhaps this is because, particularly for the first 5 or so years, students of those schools are predominately from that country (hence probably trained in the same particular way even before they started at the school) and their entry requirements seem more rigid and exacting (less variation in heights, for example).

[Kerfuffle]

2 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

That’s true, especially at company level but also perhaps the last 1-2 years of training. However, I always found younger students of the Vaganova and POBS quite distinctive in their style and overall look. Perhaps this is because, particularly for the first 5 or so years, students of those schools are predominately from that country (hence probably trained in the same particular way even before they started at the school) and their entry requirements seem more rigid and exacting (less variation in heights, for example).

Some countries have such a strong tradition of ballet that they don’t change hugely who they choose or how they teach, this is very true of Russia and France. You’re right that both those nations are very exacting in their intake - they know the bodies that will respond to the training and look right according to their aesthetic. French and Russian ballerinas look alike but their styles of dancing are quite different I think - they have a different emphasis in their classes. I thought Nureyev would have made POB more like Vaganova but my daughter recently did YAGP Paris classes there and it was still very French fast footwork, I think this might be a Western European approach? 

[FionaM]

@Thelittleswansyou asked about why there are no candidates from the UK this year.  My guess is that’s because anyone decent enough is already at a vocational school.  Of course there may have been candidates who applied and didn’t make it through.
 

I asked Christopher Powney a similar question on the zoom interview hosted by the London Ballet Circle@LBC last week.

 

He had three parts to his response:

 

Firstly he said the PdL was originally designed to gather students from lesser schools to gain access to companies and premier schools like RBS.  And of course this is still its main purpose.

 

Secondly, the RBS and other top professional schools … Paris, Amsterdam, many German ones, San Francisco, ABT, Canada, see it as a recruitment opportunity.  And those schools tend not to send candidates either. 

 

Thirdly, on a practical note he said he would not be able to choose candidates to send and therefore would have to offer the opportunity to all 30 students in all 3 years at the upper school and that would be impossible to coach with the staff they have!!!
 

I thought the last excuse was a cop opt.  Of course he and the staff could choose to enter a few across the whole school if they wanted to.  They do selection anyway for soloist roles in annual performances.  Of course, there is then added pressure on those selected students to perform well …what if they didn’t make the finals or win any prizes?  That would not reflect well on the school. 
 

In fact Diana Vishneva talked about that in an interview today.  She is deputy head of the jury this year and was the first candidate to represent the Vaganova Academy in St Petersburg.  She talked about the expectation and pressure of performing back then, in order not to let her teachers or school down. (She won).

[Ballet2101]

On 24/12/2022 at 10:41, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I believe the YAGP also has masterclasses but I think the main difference (apart from minimum age) is that PdL candidates have already been pre-selected. Anyone can register for the YAGP and perform and be seen on those YouTube livestreams. I believe the PdL selection process is a lot more rigorous in that only a select few actually get chosen after video application or summer intensive pre-selection to travel to Lausanne and participate. A lot of PdL candidates seem to have done YAGP previously already. And I’ve seen many young dancers scoop numerous prizes and scholarships at the YAGP and not even reach the finals of the PdL.

YAGP has Masterclasses, but they are not scored, and in many cases are not even scholarship opportunities (especially at the regional level).  During YAGP Finals there are scholarship classes, but they are not open to all contestants.  They are limited to the 40-50 kids performing at a higher level during the competition itself.  There are other competitions that mirror the format of PDL, but YAGP focuses on the Variation more than anything.  YAGP regionals are open to all contestants.  There are no requirements other than being interested in performing and registering.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ballet2101

[Birdy]

My daughter said some of the dancers currently at PdL have posted Instagram videos of them dancing, often at home during Covid lockdowns, not looking super impressive. They have done it to show how far they’ve come since then. I think it’s a lovely thing to do, honestly.

[FionaM]

1 hour ago, Ballet2101 said:

YAGP has Masterclasses, but they are not scored, and in many cases are not even scholarship opportunities (especially at the regional level).  During YAGP Finals there are scholarship classes, but they are not open to all contestants.  They are limited to the 40-50 kids performing at a higher level during the competition itself.  There are other competitions that mirror the format of PDL, but YAGP focuses on the Variation more than anything.  YAGP regionals are open to all contestants.  There are no requirements other than being interested in performing and registering.

I know an 18yo YAGP finalist (last year) who was in the masterclasses and was offered a number of places for one or two year self-funded further training.  (Ie more money off mum and dad), but no direct company positions.  
 

Fortunately someone saw him and proposed him to an Eastern European company.  He’s getting soloist opportunities there within 3 months of starting.   

[Balletdoodah]

10 hours ago, FionaE said:

@Thelittleswansyou asked about why there are no candidates from the UK this year.  My guess is that’s because anyone decent enough is already at a vocational school.  Of course there may have been candidates who applied and didn’t make it through.
 

I asked Christopher Powney a similar question on the zoom interview hosted by the London Ballet Circle@LBC last week.

 

He had three parts to his response:

 

Firstly he said the PdL was originally designed to gather students from lesser schools to gain access to companies and premier schools like RBS.  And of course this is still its main purpose.

 

Secondly, the RBS and other top professional schools … Paris, Amsterdam, many German ones, San Francisco, ABT, Canada, see it as a recruitment opportunity.  And those schools tend not to send candidates either. 

 

Thirdly, on a practical note he said he would not be able to choose candidates to send and therefore would have to offer the opportunity to all 30 students in all 3 years at the upper school and that would be impossible to coach with the staff they have!!!
 

I thought the last excuse was a cop opt.  Of course he and the staff could choose to enter a few across the whole school if they wanted to.  They do selection anyway for soloist roles in annual performances.  Of course, there is then added pressure on those selected students to perform well …what if they didn’t make the finals or win any prizes?  That would not reflect well on the school. 
 

In fact Diana Vishneva talked about that in an interview today.  She is deputy head of the jury this year and was the first candidate to represent the Vaganova Academy in St Petersburg.  She talked about the expectation and pressure of performing back then, in order not to let her teachers or school down. (She won).

 

Without controversy,  Mr Powney’s statements look fair amd rational, from any schools perspective.

Faculty attend many other comps beside PdL/YAGP. It seems to me that they are looking to find talent wherever they can find it…and this may shock some - but out of a genuine love for the future of the art form - passing on the traditions and knowledge to the next generation - and in the best interest of their school.  These things don’t appear incompatible to me, whether in UK, USA,  EU …

 

Turning PdL etc  into a ‘battle ofthe schools’ would no doubt make for enticing  viewing…. but i think benefits little either school or dancers - whether at big name school or not.  

 

What would a school have to gain, apart from odious meaningless comparisons of trophy counts? These schools missions are to serve their students by preparing them for companies - and Ive yet to encounter one in UK or EU or further that doesnt have this goal.

 

For those not already in a company feeding school, competitions are the best way to be seen.  Students in the schools face their own challenges with internal assessments, without the burden of an external competiton - on student and teacher.

 

For the young dancer, competition preparation has its own demands that may detract from a students general and technical progress.  Performance experience is important, prizes are lovely (but always have to be budgeted for), however before 16 it is all only about potential anyway…. very few of those that ‘make it’, make it onto to a ballet career 

 

Enjoying the thread though, thank you all.  Back to PdL discussions !

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Balletdoodah
one more point

[Kerfuffle]

A lot of these dancers are 18 so I think a bit old to be trying to get into upper schools. I imagine that their schools are teaching at a pretty high standard anyway - I bet they are mostly doing full time schedules. Going to a top school attached to a top company doesn’t guarantee you a job, those students still have to audition along with anyone else. 

[Balletdoodah]

@kerfuffle

of course, for the post-16 group, their focus is companies. 

 

I know everyone knows, but I’ll reiterate, theres much more to getting into any company than ‘only standard’…. preparation must meet opportunity

Edited January 31, 2023 by Balletdoodah
typo

[Sophoife]

3 hours ago, Balletdoodah said:

Performance experience is important, prizes are lovely (but always have to be budgeted for), however before 16 it is all only about potential anyway…. very few of those that ‘make it’, make it onto to a ballet career 

 

And of course here is where I point to First Position, the YAGP documentary from 2010-11.

 

Little Aran Bell, child of a US serviceman deployed to Italy, was training with Denys Ganio. He was promoted to principal at ABT at age 21.

 

Michaela DePrince was a soloist with Het Nationale Ballet and now at Boston Ballet.

 

Miko Fogarty spent a year at Birmingham Royal Ballet before choosing to study medicine; I believe she hopes to become a foot and ankle surgeon.

 

Gaya Bommer Yemini teaches contemporary dance and also dances professionally.

 

Rebecca Houseknecht danced with Washington Ballet before training as a speech pathologist.

 

Joan Sebastian Zamora danced with ENB, then the Joffrey, then with the Colombian company, and now with Georgia Ballet.

[Balletdoodah]

Indeed…great documentary.

Weve feel like been living it for the last 3 years.

[Sophoife]

A couple of days late, I know, but I'm wishing the best of experiences and learning opportunities to all candidates at this year's Prix de Lausanne...from whichever country, whatever training path.

 

Especially wishing luck to any candidates who are DC of any forum members! 😘

[LinMM]

Is there anywhere which lists the candidates names and their numbers now it has started? 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

19 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Is there anywhere which lists the candidates names and their numbers now it has started? 

[LinMM]

Many thanks Neverdancedjustamum!! 
It’s great that they have the photos as well ….as before have only just seen the candidates names next to the numbers. 
 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

42 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Many thanks Neverdancedjustamum!! 
It’s great that they have the photos as well ….as before have only just seen the candidates names next to the numbers. 
 

Yes, I thought that as well. Really enjoying watching the PdL this year. What an amazing group of young dancers.

[Fonty]

Read this thread with interest.  I am curious to know how recently schools such as the RB ceased to put forward candidates.  I know Bussell definitely entered and won something while at the RB, and I think Bull did too, didn't she?  

[Peanut68]

I suspect that the fact that it is ever younger virtuostic dancers who tend to be selected for these type of competitions can only ever come from a training background of intense private coaching which is not the norm in the UK. 

Even going back over the years many current & former RB dancers came these routes & joined at much younger ages than a UK dancer would ever have been allowed.....I seem to recall (happy to be corrected...) that dancers like Ferri & Durante joined the company aged only 15 - at a time even when I think UK kids had to remain in full time education until aged 16....& isn't it now 18? I'm sure an element of home schooling can be considered suitable allowing high level ballet coaching....but there's the rub....not many UK families can or choose to afford the time & financial outlay for this. Just my thoughts....