Interview with Susan Jaffe in today's links

[annamk]

There's plenty of food for thought in a very interesting interview in the links this morning with Susan Jaffe, the next AD of ABT.

 

Amongst other things, she says she aims to shelve, temporarily, ballets such as Corsaire and Bayadere which

 

"contain offensive stereotyping or run counter to contemporary sensibilities."

 

I know we have discussed these issues ourselves but is this the first time an AD has made such bold statements ?

 

"Counter to contemporary sensibilities" is quite a broad statement. I wonder if, for example, the character of Alain in Fille mal Gardee might fall foul of this ? 

 

 

 

[Sim]

I am not even going to say anything about this.  I just think it's a real pity that those of us who are not offended by fairytales are going to be denied freedom of choice and may lose these ballets to the mists of time.  I only hope that the companies here don't follow suit, although I am a bit worried after the altering of the choreography in the Nutcracker, etc.  

[FionaM]

4 hours ago, annamk said:

 

"Counter to contemporary sensibilities" is quite a broad statement. I wonder if, for example, the character of Alain in Fille mal Gardee might fall foul of this ? 

 

 

 

I would say yes.  I’ve always felt awkward about Alain being ridiculed for being different. 
 

I think the RB might have a difficult time with Cinderella’s sisters (if they are to be  pantomime dames) in today’s sensibilities.  Which is why the Wheeldon remake of real people is a winner.  
 

Other problematic characters?  Gamache in Don Q.    
And maybe also Sancho Panza.  
 

Any character that exists to be made fun of for their physical or personality attributes is a concern.  As well as the nationality ones.  

[miliosr]

I don't know what to make of this interview Susan Jaffe gave about American Ballet Theatre's (ABT) future:

• I can appreciate Jaffe's belief that ABT has been coasting too long on an aging audience and that it needs to cultivate a new one. In the short term, though, audience rebuilding does nothing to fill the immensity of the Met at a time when the common complaint is - "there are no stars at ABT". (Ironically, the same complaint that was made about ABT's roster during the 1980s when Jaffe was a principal.) Of the younger principals, only Aran Bell has that old-time star quality. There are many fine dancers at ABT but not a lot of obvious stars capable of packing the Met with the faithful.
• ABT's audience would be a strong contender for "most conservative" ballet audience in the United States; conservative in the sense that it is historically resistant to new work and is perfectly content to watch the multi-act story ballets over and over and over again. Is ABT's current audience really crying out for more new works when the new works it commissions now last one season and are then never seen again? (It will be interesting to see if the upcoming mixed bill [George Balanchine/Alonzo King premiere/Jessica Lang] and the Alexei Ratmansky New York premiere draw an audience or if ABT is faced with acres and acres of empty seats at the Met.)
• There's nothing in the interview mentioning productions (Giselle, Swan Lake) that are long past their sell-by dates or if Jaffe has any intention of restoring the Antony Tudor reportory to a pride-of-place at ABT.

Edited May 24, 2022 by miliosr

[annamk]

As far as cultivating new audiences and creating new works this is a road that Rambert are also travelling. The recent Triple Bill at Sadlers Wells received mixed reviews from the critics, I enjoyed it but it didn't enthuse me or anyone else here enough to make a discussion thread (surely saying something perhaps for Britain's foremost contemporary company). The more important point I wanted to make is that the ticket sales at Sadlers Wells were shockingly poor. Even on the opening night there were swathes of unsold seats and the 1st Circle was only saved from empty embarrassment by clearly being packed with "friends and family". 

 

 

[Lizbie1]

12 minutes ago, annamk said:

As far as cultivating new audiences and creating new works this is a road that Rambert are also travelling. The recent Triple Bill at Sadlers Wells received mixed reviews from the critics, I enjoyed it but it didn't enthuse me or anyone else here enough to make a discussion thread (surely saying something perhaps for Britain's foremost contemporary company). The more important point I wanted to make is that the ticket sales at Sadlers Wells were shockingly poor. Even on the opening night there were swathes of unsold seats and the 1st Circle was only saved from empty embarrassment by clearly being packed with "friends and family". 

 

 

 

Out of curiosity: how well does contemporary dance at Sadlers Wells sell in general? Some of the stuff they put on looks pretty forbidding and it's difficult for me to understand how more than a a few hundred die-hards would pay to see it.

[Sim]

I think it is incredibly patronising of ADs and companies to think that in order to attract young or new audiences to the ballet or dance shows they have to feed them a lot of second or third rate choreography....and to decide on their behalf what is offensive.  Let them watch things, and decide for themselves. As with adults, if they find something offensive they don't have to go again.  Young people are not inherently stupid.   

 

Classical ballet as an artform has been around for more than 200 years.  There is a reason for that.  People love it.  People of all ages.  When I was a teenager (and quite a naughty one) I absolutely adored all the classical ballets.  If I had only gone to some of the 'contemporary' stuff that was on offer ostensibly to attract younger people I would have quickly stopped going to dance performances.  

[Wanja]

4 hours ago, Sim said:

 I just think it's a real pity that those of us who are not offended by fairytales are going to be denied freedom of choice and may lose these ballets to the mists of time.   

You are so right!

I always wonder why it is not possible just to respect masterpieces as they are? They were created at a different time, in a different society,  a different era. 
And the audience is not so stupid or uneducated as some people seem to think.

By the way: if the ballet "Le Corsaire" is unacceptable what is with Lord Byron's poem "The Corsair"? Should it also be rewritten?
 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Wanja

[Candleque]

I think this is a super interesting and needed topic. Enjoying reading all the contributions above.

The classic ballets like Swan Lake get altered all the time. If, say, adding more Benno is ok as an artistic choice, then altering offensive stereotypes should be ok as an inclusion choice. It would be fantastic to see what a brilliant Asian choreographer would do with La Bayadère for example.
(My own sensibilities find rape and violence against women offensive, but I would never DARE to suggest an alteration in you-know-who's choreography 😆)

I applaud Susan Jaffe for not ignoring the issues. And I suspect she loves these ballets, so wants to refresh them so they live another 100 years. In the article, Susan talks about doing research, listening to the audience and "opening up artistic processes to the public". How appealing that phrase is.

My take is that her findings would be of great use to the whole ballet world, so hope ABT will share. For now, I'm tempted to volunteer for any upcoming focus groups. I feel they will be much more rigorous that the ROH post-performance surveys that just ask the basic 'would you recommend' net promoter score question and never ask what you really thought about the work.

[Lizbie1]

5 minutes ago, Candleque said:

My own sensibilities find rape and violence against women offensive, but I would never DARE to suggest an alteration in you-know-who's choreography 😆

 

Good point, well made!

[JNC]

Speaking as someone who thinks La Bayadere is a great ballet - great choreography, costumes, characters (ok the score is so so but it works when I’m there actually!) it would be such a shame to lose this from the repertoire. 
 

I have seen the Bolshoi version I think it was with someone of the dancers in black face and that was horrifying and of course not acceptable. This one is easy to fix (just don’t do it!). Other complaints seem to fall down to “cultural appropriation” - but it’s not meant to be (historically) accurate in either costume, story or settings. It’s hardly a documentary like Don Quixote isn’t meant to depict a real Spain? I mean we have the Spanish and other national dances in Swan Lake - is this any different? 
 

Generally I view cultural appropriation as a catch all with suspicion - we have been borrowing and been inspired by other cultures for as long as there has been civilisation, whether it’s clothes, music, art etc I think creativity relies on a little cultural appropriation (done respectfully, with credit). 
 

I don’t quite understand why Bayadere is offensive but I would happily listen to someone explain to me and open to having my feelings changed if I am just being ignorant. For example I do find Madame Butterfly quite offensive with some portrayals of Japanese people and I can see how Le Corsaire with the slavery sub-plot isn’t great either and could certainly be adapted (perhaps in the vein of Rojo’s Raymonda?). (And I agree that I find some ballets rather misogynistic in violence against women, Khan’s Creature I just couldn’t stand for many reasons but primarily that.) 
 

Ultimately to be honest as long as the choreography from Bayadere is retained, and the score kept, so it can be seen live on stage I would see that as a compromise if it meant a complete set change and tweak to the plot. I actually do like the costumes and sets for Markarova’s production as I find them quite glamorous and different to other classical ballets but if it’s a choice between nothing and the same choreography with new sets and costumes then fine.  But to lose it completely feels rather wasteful. It appears “dark and violent” ballets are fine but “exotic” ones are not…? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by JNC
Typos

[Shade]

I agree with you JNC. However, to lose Bayadere from the rep would be a tragedy, especially as who knows when/if we will be able to see performances of Russian companies again, either here or in Russia. 

[Emeralds]

I think there can be an offensive way to present ballets like Bayadere (eg blackface for the corps and child dancers, making the fakirs look creepy and putting bikinis on the women and saying “that’s Indian traditional dress”) and Corsaire and a non-offensive way, and indeed, Fille should be presented in such a way that Alain isn’t a figure of mockery. The ABT & Royal Ballet versions of Bayadere mounted by Makarova- now also in Dutch National Ballet’s repertoire - are probably among the more respectful renditions out there, but it also depends on how every revival is coached and presented each time.

 

The article won’t open up for me (not even if I search it separately), but I remember Tamara Rojo airing similar views about Le Corsaire and Raymonda recently. Other directors have mentioned similar concerns. I think there’s a difference between looking at how characters and topics are being approached and improving on it versus chucking out the whole ballet entirely.

 

Then again, I think ABT has lots of other pieces worth performing more often and several seasons without certain classics (especially if they’ve been presented very frequently) isn’t a huge tragedy. Would love to see some of the Tudor ballets (Lilac Garden is a masterpiece) being performed more. Their Sylvia pas de deux (by Balanchine) and Paquita grand pas are great too! 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Emeralds

[Scheherezade]

22 hours ago, JNC said:

Generally I view cultural appropriation as a catch all with suspicion - we have been borrowing and been inspired by other cultures for as long as there has been civilisation, whether it’s clothes, music, art etc I think creativity relies on a little cultural appropriation (done respectfully, with credit). 

 

I totally agree, JNC. Creativity cannot flourish in a vacuum. At some level, there has to be an element of appropriation, be it cultural or otherwise. This is, by its very nature, a two way process and provided, as you say, that the influences are referenced respectfully, must surely lead to wider understanding and tolerance.

[Lizbie1]

I've just seen a rehearsal clip of Like Water for Chocolate - I'm not going so haven't watched the Insights - and it's got me thinking: as this is a co-production with ABT, will there be some nerves there about accusations of cultural appropriation by Wheeldon and (perhaps) Joby Talbot?

 

I remember the big row a couple of years ago about the novel American Dirt and there does seem to be some sensitivity in the US particularly about portrayals of Latin Americans. I've only seen about 20 seconds of the ballet, but I thought it looked as if they were trying to incorporate certain Latin American rhythms and shapes/figures; and of course it's the story of (fictional) Mexican people.

 

It might seem clear to many including me that the only reason the ballet has been commissioned is because Wheeldon personally wants to make it; but others might say that it should have been choreographed and composed by people with a Mexican background. Esquivel was presumably perfectly happy for the novel to be adapted by Wheeldon, but that doesn't seem to count for much in these cases. Similarly, consulting with e.g. Alondra de la Parra might not cut much ice.

 

To be clear: I have no personal problem with Wheeldon and Talbot doing it, other than that I don't much care for their work; however I think we should be braced for some reaction along the above lines, at least when it's put on in the US.

[bridiem]

I don't know if that will happen, Lizbie1, but it seems to me that every time anyone creates anything, unless they're writing an autobiography (and probably even then), they 'appropriate' material from the world outside them. As far as I'm concerned, all that matters is what they do with it. Otherwise we'll be in a situation where people can only write/compose/choreograph using material from their 'local' environment and their own direct experience. Upshot: the death of imagination, empathy and creativity.

[DrewCo]

3 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I've just seen a rehearsal clip of Like Water for Chocolate - I'm not going so haven't watched the Insights - and it's got me thinking: as this is a co-production with ABT, will there be some nerves there about accusations of cultural appropriation by Wheeldon and (perhaps) Joby Talbot?

 

I remember the big row a couple of years ago about the novel American Dirt and there does seem to be some sensitivity in the US particularly about portrayals of Latin Americans. I've only seen about 20 seconds of the ballet, but I thought it looked as if they were trying to incorporate certain Latin American rhythms and shapes/figures; and of course it's the story of (fictional) Mexican people.

 

It might seem clear to many including me that the only reason the ballet has been commissioned is because Wheeldon personally wants to make it; but others might say that it should have been choreographed and composed by people with a Mexican background. Esquivel was presumably perfectly happy for the novel to be adapted by Wheeldon, but that doesn't seem to count for much in these cases. Similarly, consulting with e.g. Alondra de la Parra might not cut much ice.

 

To be clear: I have no personal problem with Wheeldon and Talbot doing it, other than that I don't much care for their work; however I think we should be braced for some reaction along the above lines, at least when it's put on in the US.

 

Hmm...very possibly. I do think Esquivel's warm endorsement of the project--evident in the Royal Ballet's publicity for it-- and the fact that she seems to have been consulted early on -- along also the involvement of Alondra de La Barra that you mention may blunt those issues if/when they arise.  Certainly with the bulk of ABTs audience I think it will. (ABT might be wise, too, at least to have de La Parra conduct the ballet which will make her involvement less easy to dismiss.)  It's not predictable, but Wheeldon is a savvy guy with a lot of experience in NY, including with potentially controversial material (I'm thinking of the Michael Jackson musical and the various allegations against Jackson).

 

 

[miliosr]

On 31/05/2022 at 14:05, DrewCo said:

 

Hmm...very possibly. I do think Esquivel's warm endorsement of the project--evident in the Royal Ballet's publicity for it-- and the fact that she seems to have been consulted early on -- along also the involvement of Alondra de La Barra that you mention may blunt those issues if/when they arise.  Certainly with the bulk of ABTs audience I think it will. (ABT might be wise, too, at least to have de La Parra conduct the ballet which will make her involvement less easy to dismiss.)

 

ABT has a bigger problem on its hands. In its present slackened state, can it field even one complete cast equal to the dramatic demands of a work like this?

[Sophie_B]

On 31/05/2022 at 15:35, Lizbie1 said:

I remember the big row a couple of years ago about the novel American Dirt and there does seem to be some sensitivity in the US particularly about portrayals of Latin Americans. I've only seen about 20 seconds of the ballet, but I thought it looked as if they were trying to incorporate certain Latin American rhythms and shapes/figures; and of course it's the story of (fictional) Mexican people.

Thank you Lizbie for your comments above - American Dirt is a really interesting comparison, but I think slightly different. The outcry about American Dirt was that it was a white woman inventing a story about Mexicans which, surprise surprise, was about drug barons. Like Water is a balletic adaptation of a pre-existing novel with permission of the author that recreates specific characters on stage. I think it is clear from the costumes, but also the choreography that care has been taken to situate it in a specific historical and cultural context. For instance, I note in the Guardian review of LWFC that the reviewer thought it was clever of Wheeldon to represent marriage with ribbons, and sure it works but the starting point is clearly the Mexican wedding tradition of binding bride and groom together with a ribbon / rope. At no point does the musical suggest that Mexicans in general are somehow a bunch of people who have sexual fantasies when they eat a quail dish. There may well be those who believe it should have been done by someone with a Mexican background or incorporated more specifically Mexican music rather than "general Latin American influence in an abstract modern score" but it is really up to the author who she gives those rights to and realistically there are only so many companies / choreographers who have the clout to find financial backing for and pull off a major new 3 act production.

 

I realise there are stages of the cultural appropriation debate but mostly, it comes down to respect, doesn't it? Others have pointed out that many ballets including Swan Lake "national dances" also romanticise / essentialise nationalities, which we may want to let go a little bit more easily because historically these countries have mostly been part of Europe rather than being oppressed by it. But I think even the programme for Scarlett's Swan Lake said something about him doing research on the folk dances of those countries to modernise it a bit.

 

I don't think any of this compares to La Bayadere. I know there are some who would just like to be rid of it, I'm not one of them because I LOVE much of the choreography. We can't keep the ballet without acknowledging its Orientalist origins, but I feel like they could at least tweak it further to take the edge off the most offensive bits? The story is steeped in British colonial perceptions of "temple dancers", general 19th century European stereotypes of "lusty Orientals", it conflates Hinduism, Buddhism and no doubt a bunch of other cultural / religious practices, the costumes make ostensibly Indian characters look like Egyptian? Turkish? belly dancers, the fakirs who are supposed to be holy men crawl around on the floor as if they were less-than-human. I have a soft spot for the ridiculous stuffed tiger in the ROH production but come on, can we find other visual ways to tell the audience that they are not in Europe? Nobody expects it to be a documentary, but it's as if we decided to set a story in "the West" where an abbott decides to harass a nun, they all wear Native American costumes ("but make it sexy") and in the final scene they all end up at a synagogue where a torah comes to life and performs a merry dance. Frankly I'd be surprised if ROH revives it in its current form given the work they've clearly been doing behind the scenes since 2020.

 

I'm sorry if this is going a bit off topic from the original article, but I just caught up on this discussion and thought it raised some really interesting questions!

[bridiem]

14 minutes ago, Sophie_B said:

I don't think any of this compares to La Bayadere. I know there are some who would just like to be rid of it, I'm not one of them because I LOVE much of the choreography. We can't keep the ballet without acknowledging its Orientalist origins, but I feel like they could at least tweak it further to take the edge off the most offensive bits? The story is steeped in British colonial perceptions of "temple dancers", general 19th century European stereotypes of "lusty Orientals", it conflates Hinduism, Buddhism and no doubt a bunch of other cultural / religious practices, the costumes make ostensibly Indian characters look like Egyptian? Turkish? belly dancers, the fakirs who are supposed to be holy men crawl around on the floor as if they were less-than-human. I have a soft spot for the ridiculous stuffed tiger in the ROH production but come on, can we find other visual ways to tell the audience that they are not in Europe? Nobody expects it to be a documentary, but it's as if we decided to set a story in "the West" where an abbott decides to harass a nun, they all wear Native American costumes ("but make it sexy") and in the final scene they all end up at a synagogue where a torah comes to life and performs a merry dance. Frankly I'd be surprised if ROH revives it in its current form given the work they've clearly been doing behind the scenes since 2020.

 

I'm not sure I understand where 'British colonial perceptions' come into Bayadère - it's not a British ballet, nor was the RB production mounted by a Briton. I agree that it incorporates stereotypes and conflates various cultural and religious practices, because it's not seeking to be a realistic representation of anything. If a ballet made on another continent in the 19th century portrayed Western stereotypes etc I wouldn't give a hoot, as long as it was as beautiful and entertaining as Bayadère (which is a big ask).

[Sim]

7 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I'm not sure I understand where 'British colonial perceptions' come into Bayadère - it's not a British ballet, nor was the RB production mounted by a Briton. I agree that it incorporates stereotypes and conflates various cultural and religious practices, because it's not seeking to be a realistic representation of anything. If a ballet made on another continent in the 19th century portrayed Western stereotypes etc I wouldn't give a hoot, as long as it was as beautiful and entertaining as Bayadère (which is a big ask).

Completely agree, BridieM.  As Jann Parry said in her review of Nutcracker in December (having seen the altered Arabian and Chinese dances), these are fairy tale ballets, not PC tracts.  I was recently in Egypt and met up with an Egyptian friend whom I hadn't seen for decades.  I was telling her about all the so-called 'offence' being caused by 19th century ballets and she thought it was hilarious.  She said to me "do you people think we didn't have harems?  That women weren't treated as objects and entertainment for men?  That marriages weren't arranged?  You are all trying to deny the truth.'  I told her that that is a current theme in the West, and she is baffled...and very miffed at what she sees as the West being patronising and 'offended' on their behalf.  That's the way things were (and sometimes still are), so are we all to pretend that none of these things happened?  And who are all these people who are 'offended' by fairytale ballets that are set in the distant past?  Last time the RB did Bayadere, I was standing behind an 'older' Indian lady and her daughter, who gave me huge beaming smiles a few times during the course of the evening.  As we were leaving I asked if they had enjoyed it, and both young and old ladies told me they loved it.  No offence there, then. 

 

Anyway, I don't suppose we will be seeing Bayadere for a long time (until everybody stops being 'offended' by a fairytale) as we (I) can no longer even go to Russia to see it.  My take is...show the ballet in all of its beauty.  If anyone is sensitive or offended by it, it's simple;  don't go.  For the rest of us, let us decide for ourselves.  

[Sophie_B]

12 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

I'm not sure I understand where 'British colonial perceptions' come into Bayadère - it's not a British ballet, nor was the RB production mounted by a Briton. I agree that it incorporates stereotypes and conflates various cultural and religious practices, because it's not seeking to be a realistic representation of anything. If a ballet made on another continent in the 19th century portrayed Western stereotypes etc I wouldn't give a hoot, as long as it was as beautiful and entertaining as Bayadère (which is a big ask).

I am by no means an expert so I won't try and go into too much detail and there are a lot of ifs and buts as to how colonial power actually "works". But as far as I understand, the figure of the temple dancer was roughly based on the Indian tradition of devadasi, which the British seem to have misunderstood, equated with prostitution, and eventually outlawed. This was part of a whole range of social reform movements throughout the 19th century which superficially studied, misunderstood and reshaped Indian traditions to fit British perceptions of what culture, education, or religion was acceptable. To be clear - I'm not saying that the ballet's stereotypes were specifically put there by a British person past or present. I'm saying that because Britain colonised India from the late 18th century onwards, this skewed colonialist lens (on what India was and who Indians were) influenced European perceptions of the subcontinent more generally. Petipa was by all accounts highly impressed by Indian culture and dancing and did not set out to wilfully denigrate the culture - he was just strongly influenced by the stereotypes and misunderstandings swirling around at the time.

 

I totally get the perspective that a ballet made in a different continent about Western stereotypes would be quite funny rather than harmful. BUT, if that continent had at the time also maintained an exploitative colonial presence in Europe that suppressed and altered traditions, rated white Europeans as second class humans and built an unequal economic system that meant the other continent were benefitting from the raw materials and work of Europe, I might feel differently.

[Jan McNulty]

There's a very interesting interview with Jane Pritchard on Shobana Jeyasingh's website:

 

https://www.shobanajeyasingh.co.uk/explore/understanding-la-bayadere-interview-jane-pritchard/

 

Sohphie_B do you have any links please to references about Petipa being influenced by the skewed colonialist lens?

[Lindsay]

 

24 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

Sohphie_B do you have any links please to references about Petipa being influenced by the skewed colonialist lens?

 

I think recent discussions around Petipa and other 19th and early 20th century 'creatives' seeing the East through a colonial and imagined "Orientalist" lens derive largely from Edward Said's very influential book, Orientalism .  For example, a quick  google throws up This Article which discusses the European vs 'Oriental' ideals depicted in ballet and draws heavily upon Said.  I don't have access to JStor from this computer but, if anyone does, I'm sure that searching Said/Orientalism/Ballet would produce more journal articles along the same lines.  Petipa was living in a world where such tropes were a constant reference point across all of the art forms.

 

My personal view is that there are very respectable arguments that Said overstated/oversimplified his case and/or that some of his 'followers', (particularly those overly-indebted to post-modern theory) have taken his arguments to illogical conclusions, but for those looking for the basis of such arguments, his book is the starting place.

[Wanja]

1 hour ago, Sim said:

Completely agree, BridieM.  As Jann Parry said in her review of Nutcracker in December (having seen the altered Arabian and Chinese dances), these are fairy tale ballets, not PC tracts.  I was recently in Egypt and met up with an Egyptian friend whom I hadn't seen for decades.  I was telling her about all the so-called 'offence' being caused by 19th century ballets and she thought it was hilarious.  She said to me "do you people think we didn't have harems?  That women weren't treated as objects and entertainment for men?  That marriages weren't arranged?  You are all trying to deny the truth.'  I told her that that is a current theme in the West, and she is baffled...and very miffed at what she sees as the West being patronising and 'offended' on their behalf.  That's the way things were (and sometimes still are), so are we all to pretend that none of these things happened?  And who are all these people who are 'offended' by fairytale ballets that are set in the distant past?  Last time the RB did Bayadere, I was standing behind an 'older' Indian lady and her daughter, who gave me huge beaming smiles a few times during the course of the evening.  As we were leaving I asked if they had enjoyed it, and both young and old ladies told me they loved it.  No offence there, then. 

 

Anyway, I don't suppose we will be seeing Bayadere for a long time (until everybody stops being 'offended' by a fairytale) as we (I) can no longer even go to Russia to see it.  My take is...show the ballet in all of its beauty.  If anyone is sensitive or offended by it, it's simple;  don't go.  For the rest of us, let us decide for ourselves.  

This is the best summary of this "problem" I have ever read. 

Thank you, Sim

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Sophie_B said:

I totally get the perspective that a ballet made in a different continent about Western stereotypes would be quite funny rather than harmful. 

 

Just to clarify: I didn't mean that I would find a 19th-century ballet using Western stereotypes funny - just that I wouldn't care/be offended (if the ballet was good enough, which if it had survived to this day it probably would be). And yes, that's my perspective as a Western person (with British, Irish, Jewish/German/Polish/Italian and South African ancestry, and a grandfather on one side and a great-grandfather on the other side who became naturalisesd American citizens...). Others may have other perspectives, of course, as is their right.

[Lindsay]

23 minutes ago, Wanja said:

This is the best summary of this "problem" I have ever read. 

Thank you, Sim

Except that saying "my friend" and "two people I met at the ballet" were fine with it, therefore it's ok, is not really a summary is it? 

 

I don't disagree that some critics are at risk of throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater.  There obviously needs to be a nuanced discussion that moves over time (i.e. I don't think many people, other than the Bolshoi, still think blackface is acceptable, whereas depictions of oriental slavemasters with whips (looking at you ENB Nutcracker!) may divide opinion more evenly.  But saying there is no need for a discussion at all and it's all just PC silliness ignores the genuine offence that stereotypes cause to many many people.  Ballet in the West is already in enough trouble as an art form struggling for audiences who perceive it as archaic.  Doubling down on the right to retain tropes that would have been considered dated by many people in the 1960s will not help.   

Edited June 7, 2022 by Lindsay

[Sophie_B]

53 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

Sohphie_B do you have any links please to references about Petipa being influenced by the skewed colonialist lens?

 

28 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

I think recent discussions around Petipa and other 19th and early 20th century 'creatives' seeing the East through a colonial and imagined "Orientalist" lens derive largely from Edward Said's very influential book, Orientalism .  For example, a quick  google throws up This Article which discusses the European vs 'Oriental' ideals depicted in ballet and draws heavily upon Said.  I don't have access to JStor from this computer but, if anyone does, I'm sure that searching Said/Orientalism/Ballet would produce more journal articles along the same lines.  Petipa was living in a world where such tropes were a constant reference point across all of the art forms.

 

My personal view is that there are very respectable arguments that Said overstated/oversimplified his case and/or that some of his 'followers', (particularly those overly-indebted to post-modern theory) have taken his arguments to illogical conclusions, but for those looking for the basis of such arguments, his book is the starting place.

Thank you Lindsay, that is exactly what I meant. For the record, I quite like postmodernism but am not a faithful Said disciple or anything (let's face it, he made a Big Argument quite a long time ago and lots of people poked valid holes in it since). But I do think he's a useful starting point for the idea that Europeans tended to conflate a lot of "the East" into one exotic "Other", which is crystal clear in many visual arts of the time. 

 

I was commenting more from general knowledge of representations of "the exotic" in Western culture and from colonial histories, where lots of exciting stuff has been written since Said but frankly it can get a bit jargony. Directly related to ballet, a quick Google brought up two recent MA dissertations (ie not quite peer reviewed articles), which as Lindsay said rely largely on Said and other postcolonial / postmodern scholars but may be of interest - sorry if this was the one you also linked Lindsay, I couldn't open your link

 

Barnes, Racialized Visions of “The Other”: Histories of Orientalism Behind La Bayadére
https://collections.lib.utah.edu/ark:/87278/s6bk77x4 

 

Gendron, De-Orientalizing Classical Ballet in the Twenty-First Century 

https://digitalcommons.sia.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=stu_theses

 

[Suffolkgal]

Nothing much to add to these excellent points except that these things something come to a natural point for change - i remember a few years ago the Chinese dance in Nutcracker was met with some rather embarrassed laughter as the majority of the audience i think found it quite uncomfortable. So things will be amended but if we try and put our 21st century Western views on to beautiful creations from earlier times then where will it end! And i feel it's very patronising to assume the view of people from other cultural backgrounds whom, I am sure, can make up their own minds...

[Sim]

Just now, Suffolkgal said:

Nothing much to add to these excellent points except that these things something come to a natural point for change - i remember a few years ago the Chinese dance in Nutcracker was met with some rather embarrassed laughter as the majority of the audience i think found it quite uncomfortable. So things will be amended but if we try and put our 21st century Western views on to beautiful creations from earlier times then where will it end! And i feel it's very patronising to assume the view of people from other cultural backgrounds whom, I am sure, can make up their own minds...

That's what I was trying to say, but you put it much more clearly and eloquently!

[Scheherezade]

On 07/06/2022 at 15:16, Suffolkgal said:

And i feel it's very patronising to assume the view of people from other cultural backgrounds whom, I am sure, can make up their own minds...

I have many friends from the Middle East and south east Asia, all of whom have expressed this view and have endorsed everything set out in Sim’s earlier post. I would personally find the idea of someone taking offence on my behalf unbelievably patronising. To do so is to assume a wholly unacceptable position of superiority in the unedifying manner of ‘nanny knows best’. 

[alison]

But it happens a lot, "on behalf" of numerous groups of people.  Did it start, I wonder, with the now-notorious "Winterval" which certain councils created because it was thought that "Christmas" would be offensive to people of other faiths (whereas, as I understand it, most of them were happy to incorporate Christmas in their lives to at least some extent)?

[Lindsay]

3 hours ago, alison said:

But it happens a lot, "on behalf" of numerous groups of people.  Did it start, I wonder, with the now-notorious "Winterval" which certain councils created because it was thought that "Christmas" would be offensive to people of other faiths (whereas, as I understand it, most of them were happy to incorporate Christmas in their lives to at least some extent)?

 The actual "Winterval" story was never about Christmas being offensive - it was a marketing strategy devised by Birmingham City Council for lots of winter activities from Children in Need to a Frankfurt Christmas Fair to lighting up Aston Hall during a city rejuvenation project in 1997.  It was subsequently recycled and distorted many times by the Murdoch press and the Mail and has morphed into a "PC gone mad" urban myth about immigrants objecting to Christmas and Councils appeasing them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas

 

And for those who dislike the Guardian, here is the Mail apologising for repeating this untrue myth:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-2058830/Clarifications-corrections.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Edited June 9, 2022 by Lindsay