Unsupportive parents

[Squawk020]

I’m currently in year ten, I go to a very good academic school and my predicted grades are very high. My parents want me to stay at my current school for sixth form, but I want to apply for Elmhurst. I’ve only been dancing for two years, but I’ve already begun pointe and intermediate foundation. I also don’t look like the most typical dancer, so my parents are doubtful. We are also a quite low income family but my dad has a good pension so I don’t think I’d be eligible for any funding and obviously they wound pay much in terms of fees. They’ve already made it clear that I will have to get the train to school and they won’t help me with transport.

 

Any advice

ps sorry for the long post

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Squark020 and welcome to the Forum!

 

I have moved your post to the main Doing Dance forum where you are more likely to get replies.

[alison]

Welcome to the forum, Squawk020.  Don't worry about that being a "long" post - you should see some of the others we get

 

Anyway, I hope some posters with more experience in these matters than Jan and I have will be along soon to help you.

[Danceonthrough]

I’m sorry that you feel your parents aren’t supporting you. Have you had a conversation with them about applying to see what the outcome of an audition would be? Maybe if you were offered a place they might see it as a realistic option as you can take A levels alongside the dance course at Elmhurst. 

[Squawk020]

Thanks, I’ve tried to have a conversation but they keep shutting it down and just don’t see it as a realistic option and think it would be impossible for me to be offered a place. Then there’s the issue about funding because while I’ve offered to work to help pay for it, I can’t afford to pay all the fees myself. They also don’t value the a levels offered there as they want me to take computing and Russian, I’ve told them I can take a levels at any age. I’m going to keep trying to talk to them though 

[Jewel]

Why Elmhurst in particular?

 

What you are essentially asking your parents to pay for is private schooling.  I can understand their reservations especially as you have only been dancing two years (however my son only started playing an instrument aged 14 and now he is auditioning for music college.

 

Elmhurst is a very particular type of school and anyone auditioning knows it is a very long shot.  When you audition aged 11 they will take on potential.  But aged 16 they literally have just 3 years to get a dancer to the standard of a professional ballet dancer.  You have to be of a comparable level of dancers who have trained in Lower School and indeed internationally.  

 

As the funding is likely to be an issue you may be better off continuing in your dance classes locally, perhaps supplementing with workshops and summer schools and aged 18 look at auditioning for one of the degree funded ballet/dance courses if that is what you aspire to.  Have you asked your dance teacher's advice?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Jewel

[rowan]

I’m a ballet mum and will try to address some of your comments in the order you made them.

 

Going to a good academic school and having high predicted grades is a great position to be in. Getting the best academic results you can is really important for the future - it will give you choices, because whether you become a dancer or not, at some point a dancer’s career ends. No doubt this is something your parents are aware of and why it might appear that they are unsupportive, or indeed actually are unsupportive. Many parents will be anxious about their child wanting to set out on a precarious and short career in the performing arts. 

 

Elmhurst does offer A-levels but the choice will be more limited compared to a normal school and it may not offer subjects which you wish to study or are good at. This is a valid concern of any parent. Have you looked to see what is on offer? Would those subjects appeal?

 

Realistically, if you’ve only been dancing - I assume you mean just ballet - for two years, you will be at a big disadvantage, as most young dancers will have been training since at least the mid-primary years and competition for a place will be fierce. Your guide here should be your dance teacher. What do they think of your potential? Have you told them of your aspirations? Have you ever auditioned for any associate schemes or youth ballets? I would leave how you look out of the equation for now. However, some physical facilities are really important for ballet; some of those you have no control over, and others need to be worked on for years. You might not need every single one of them, but you will need some.

 

In a school like Elmhurst, the fees are means tested for talented pupils, so in theory if you were offered a place with an award, your parents wouldn’t have to pay full fees if your parents are low income. However, you said you don’t think you’d qualify for a fee reduction, so that doesn’t really tie in with the low-income bit, but your parents might have all sorts of financial commitments that you might not necessarily know about. Elmhurst is a private school and your parents still might not be willing for you to attend, for all sorts of reasons, no matter what the fees are.

 

When you say your parents say you will have to get the train to school, do you mean Elmhurst? Most pupils there will board and not travel in daily. I’m not sure that day pupils are an option. Why are you determined on Elmhurst as opposed to other dance schools?

 

If your dance teacher supports you and thinks you have a chance/potential, perhaps he/she could talk to your parents about auditioning. There would be an audition fee to pay but it would be a waste of money and time if you have no chance of getting a place.

 

Otherwise, you can start some dance courses after A-levels if you do A-levels at your current school. These are not so likely to be ballet-focused but other forms of dance. It will give you more time to hone your technique.

[Squawk020]

I’ve not yet been able to speak to my teachers as both myself and my two teachers are currently isolating. The reason I want to go to Elmhurst in particular is because since I began dance ( end of year 7) I’ve always wanted to work towards becoming a professional. I know you can be a day pupil at Elmhurst as their website has a fees calculator which is dependent on whether or not you board. Elmhurst is the most local to me of all the vocational ballet schools and is the only one that I wouldn’t have to board at( reducing cost), it also emphasises a levels which I know my parents find to be important so I hoped it would make them more willing to allow me to apply. The reason I don’t think I’d qualify for any funding is that while my mom has a very low income job and my dad doesn’t work, he has a good pension( but he’s not willing to use any of it as my parents want to move house in the future). I know how competitive the dance industry is, especially for someone as new to dance as I am, but I would prefer to apply and get rejected that not apply and be left wondering if.

[Jewel]

The think you may not realise is that most young dancers don't choose what school they go to.  They apply to all of them and see whether they are accepted or not.  

[Squawk020]

I understand that, and I want to apply to all the ballet schools, but Elmhurst is the only school that my parents may stand a ( very small) chance of accepting me applying

[Pups_mum]

I can see things from your perspective  Squawk020 - it's tough to have a dream and not be able to chase it, and I quite understand the "better to try and be unsuccessful than not to try at all" ethos. However, I also have a lot of sympathy for your Mum and Dad, and it sounds like they want the best for you.

As Rowan has said, you will be competing with the very best dancers, not only in this country, but internationally, many of whom will have been in full time vocational training since they were 11. Even those who who aren't currently in full time training will probably be having many hours of tuition from local teachers  as well as associate schemes, youth ballets, summer schools etc and most will have being dancing since they were quite young. I'm not saying it is impossible for late starters to go onto professional careers, but it is a lot, lot more difficult, and those who succeed are generally exceptional talents.

What are you doing besides classes with your local teachers? Have you auditioned for any associate schemes, youth ballets or summer schools/othet intensives? If not, I would say that this is where you need to go first, before thinking of auditioning for a prestigious upper school like Elmhurst. This will give you more idea of where you currently are compared to those dancers who you would be competing for places with, and you'll get some more objective opinions regarding your potential. Things are starting to open up again post Covid now so hopefully you will be able to find some opportunities fairly close to you.

My advice would be for you to work very hard for your GCSEs because whatever happens these are very important - everyone needs a plan B, and to broaden your horizons. Don't focus on only Elmhurst. Whether dance is destined to be your career, or to stay a lovely hobby, there are many, many ways in which it can be enjoyed. After A level there are other options and student finance may be available. And don't be too hard on Mum and Dad. Chances are they want what is best for you and are trying to protect you - read some of the stories on here and that might become clearer to you. It's great to aim high, but temper that with realism, keep your options open and try to communicate as much as possible with your parents. Do they know you are posting here by the way. Please take care online. We are a nice bunch here, but remember that anyone can read your posts.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Pups_mum

[Anna C]

Hello Squawk, and welcome from me too.  As a Mum, I can absolutely understand why your Dad doesn’t want to use his pension; I expect he’s worked hard for a long time to build up his pension and it’s his (and your Mum’s) security for the future.  Even if you get into Elmhurst or any other upper school, the chances of making it through all three years without being injured, assessed out, or even changing your mind, then getting a paid contract as a ballet dancer are absolutely tiny, so even the most talented dancer with the right physique and facility (turnout) needs a “Plan B.”

 

If your family invests all its money and resources into ballet and you get injured, that leaves you in a very difficult position for whatever comes next.  

 

To have a chance of getting into Elmhurst 6th form, you really will need to be dancing at around Advanced 1 Level, so you have a lot of catching up to do to be audition-ready.  Most girls auditioning will either already be at a full-time ballet school, or will have been at a good, competitive Associate scheme, or have a private coach, or both.  They will probably have been en pointe for 4 or 5 years too.  There will be a LOT of extremely talented dancers from the UK and overseas.  

 

Have your teachers ever indicated that you have the potential to audition for full-time upper schools?  Do students from your dance school go onto full time training, or do Associates?  When you say you don’t look like a typical dancer, is this something you’ve spoken to your teachers about?  

 

If you speak to your dance teachers and they think you’d be successful at getting a place at upper school, would your parents be willing to hear that from your teachers and let you apply, do you think?

[Anon2]

@Squawk020 it’s wonderful you have started ballet and are enjoying it so much. But I second all the comments here you need to have a serious conversation with your dance teacher about your prospects. You may have made amazing progress in your short time dancing but there is more to being a dancer than picking it up quickly. As others have said look at associate schemes, holiday courses - use them to realistically judge your level compared to your peers. 
 

Having had a daughter go through lower and upper school the support from parents isn’t just financial but emotional too. It is tough and no fairy tale being a ballet student, the days are long and practice expected into the evenings. You need a supportive network behind you to survive never mind thrive. 
 

Financially you are not just looking at the school fees but dance and a formal uniform. In sixth form you could be getting through dozens of pairs of pointe shoes a year. Once you get to graduate year you also need money to travel to auditions.

 

 

[Anna C]

6 minutes ago, Squawk020 said:

A note on the pension issue. I don’t want to use his pension, but he wants to take out a lot of money so in 5/6 years he can buy a house but this means I am not able to access any funding, as withdrawing his pension increases our income to above the limit for funding

 

To be honest, with or without means-tested funding for 6th form, there’s still a lot of money to find, as Jane says.  

 

I really think you need to speak to - or email - your ballet techers to see whether think you have the potential, before worrying about funding. 

[SissonneDoublee]

If your ballet teacher(s) says that you have the ability to train as a professional ballet dancer, but your parents are against funding your full-time training at 16 years old, your best bet is to apply for associate places (Elmhurst Extended Young Dancers, Royal Ballet Advanced Associates, Central Associates, MIDAS, Midland Ballet Theatre, and Kings might have an associate scheme) while you take A Levels, to supplement getting in as many hours of high-quality training as possible at your home dance school, and then applying to 18+ ballet training (at Central, for example), which you can then fund yourself with a student loan. Even so, you will need financial support to cover the cost of accommodation, pointe shoes, plus all the sundries that ballet students need.

 

To get a place at Elmhurst you will need to be exceptional. Even the girls already at Elmhurst lower school are not all given upper school places. Auditions take place around the world, and upper school has lots of students from overseas. Some students are admitted into the graduate year (Year 14, so after A Levels), so if you have outstanding training at home, you could join at this point for a final polish and the graduate tour to help with finding employment. It is only extraordinarily talented dancers that are able to join at this stage, already pretty much dancing at company standard.

 

As you can see, there are possibilities, but all of them involve a combination of talent, training and unfortunately finance. Hopefully your ballet teacher will be able to guide you, and the information on here will be helpful. Good luck!

[LinMM]

I think you’ve already had some really excellent advice here Squawk020 

so I’m not going to add to it but I’m interested in the suddenness of this desire to go into full time ballet training and to Elmhurst in particular ....though you did partly explain that. 
It seems to have become important during the Christmas break. Has somebody said something to you at the end of last term or 
have you got a friend already studying at Elmhurst or another vocational ballet school? 

[Ruby Foo]

It’s great you have a passion and a dream. A vision is a wonderful thing. However, as others before me have pointed out, to start ballet so late, you would need to have exceptional talent and exceptional physical ability. Very few people have the attributes to even contemplate a career in Ballet as it is, but you would be extremely disadvantaged starting so late.

Before you contemplate the stress of winning over your parents and possible auditions, which you may, or may not be prepared for, why don’t you ask a professional, qualified independent teacher for their opinion?

Normally, it would be your own teacher who would suggest to you that you have the talent, physical ability and experience to audition for a career in Classical Ballet. In your case, this doesn’t seem to have happened. However, you could go to someone independently, who would tell you if it’s at all possible or not. This would save you a lot of bother and money! If they say yes, go for it, then your parents won’t feel it’s such a gamble. If they say no, no chance at all, then you may have to think of a different type of dance career or a dance related career or not dance at all. If you pm me, I can give you a name of someone who will tell you honestly where you stand.

As regards being a day girl, from personal experience, it gets very tricky, if not almost impossible, the older you get. When you are young, the benefits are incredible. But at upper levels the training is so intense and time so limited (especially with academics) getting your head down on a pillow ASAP is the main priority!

 

[Justkeepsmiling]

I would agree with the others that have suggested that you could keep dancing locally until 18 and try to supplement your training with associates or  summer/Easter schools and masterclasses. That way you could continue with your A levels (which will keep your parents happy) and you will have more options open to you if it doesn’t work out. There are some schools that will take students aged 18 on their courses in first year and by that stage you will have more dancing under your belt and hopefully  be at least at Intermediate level before you apply. It also would mean that you could use a student loan to pay for your course if you get a place if you go for one of the degree courses. I do know of students who were just not ready to go to vocational school aged 16 but have worked hard to improve and have been successful in gaining places aged 18 ( not at Elmhurst though)

I would definitely also speak to your dance teacher for some advice as they will know your facility, ability, commitment and determination and will hopefully point you in the right direction. Good luck with it all. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

You could apply for Elmhurst associates. If you get a place then your parents will be invited into watch once a term (Covid dependent). This will at least let them see the school and some of the faculty. The auditions will be advertised on their website.

[sunrise81]

You could also apply for the Elmhurst summer school? By the time Elmhurst students finish Year 11, I think the aim is to have completed the Advanced RAD exams........my daughter is Year 8 and doing Inter Foundation this year. 

[Drdee]

@Squawk020 have you looked at other Midlands vocational ballet training courses as well? You mention you don’t look like the most typical dancer what do you mean by that? If you are doing other dance genres you may

consider looking at Rambert as well as they do have bits of funding support on top of loan etc. Could you do both Inter Foundation and Inter at the same time? 

[DancingtoDance]

18 hours ago, Squawk020 said:

I’m currently in year ten, I go to a very good academic school and my predicted grades are very high. My parents want me to stay at my current school for sixth form, but I want to apply for Elmhurst. I’ve only been dancing for two years, but I’ve already begun pointe and intermediate foundation. I also don’t look like the most typical dancer, so my parents are doubtful. We are also a quite low income family but my dad has a good pension so I don’t think I’d be eligible for any funding and obviously they wound pay much in terms of fees. They’ve already made it clear that I will have to get the train to school and they won’t help me with transport.

 

Any advice

ps sorry for the long post

Just out of curiosity, how many ballet classes have you taken a week for the past two years, and have you taken dance classes other than ballet by any chance or not?

 

I agree with the advice to apply to associate schemes if you can't get into a vocational ballet school yet. I also suggest that perhaps you may want to apply to ballet winter or summer schools if you can. I'm not suggesting that you should definitely do ballet winter or summer school even if you get in, because there may be other priorities and sometimes we need a break, but it may be worth considering. There may also be non-selective ballet winter or summer intensives (I went to one but not in the U.K.) I also suggest that if you do apply for vocational ballet schools, you apply to more than only Elmhurst Ballet School, because it is possible to not get into one vocational ballet school but get into another ballet school.

 

Even if you do get into vocational ballet school or do get into ballet school, I suggest you consider career options other than ballet dancing, because various factors may mean the end of vocational ballet training or the end of a career in ballet dancing, and because according to https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1fkwdll6ZscvQtHMz4HCYYr/why-do-dancers-die-twice the average age a dancer retires from a career in performing dance is about 35, which means that a career in dancing may very well be shorter than the years one works. There are forms of dance other than ballet, if you wish to explore them.

 

I wish the best for you!

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by DancingtoDance

[Squawk020]

Thanks to all those who suggested summer schools and associates, I will definitely look into that. I will also look into Rambert. I currently do 3 ballet classes a week and 1 modern and 1 tap class. I also have experience in contemporary as I used to compete.

[Medora]

I think you should apply to a summer intensive! This is one way to gauge your potential: if you get accepted I’d take that as a positive, and if you end up going you will meet lots of other dancers your age, who will all be really talented as these intensives can be very competitive to get in to. This will help you get an idea of where you stand in comparison to dancers who are at vocational school already, as this will be the level of your competition for entry into Elmhurst. 
 

The Royal Ballet School summer intensive is open for applications now, have a look at their website.

 

The Royal Ballet School also has an online easter intensive with no audition. Do this one! You’ll get an idea of the level of training at these schools, and you can see other dancers your age on screen with you. 

[Medora]

And if you are serious about vocational school, you might want to look into doing more ballet. Your competition will already be at vocational school in some cases, and they are doing 2-3 hours of dance per day. If you can’t find classes locally, there are lots of good online classes around. 

[Pointetoes]

2 hours ago, Squawk020 said:

Thanks to all those who suggested summer schools and associates, I will definitely look into that. I will also look into Rambert. I currently do 3 ballet classes a week and 1 modern and 1 tap class. I also have experience in contemporary as I used to compete.

Just to give you an idea when my DD was in Yr 10 she was doing 15 hrs a week of dance, all genres plus various other dance companies and county choirs /orchestra. She also regularly do workshops in the holidays and things like EYB.  

 

If this really is the way you want to go, I do think you need to increase your dance hours. As has already been said 16+ entry particularly for Ballet is really tough.  

 

Good luck

[Kate_N]

If you're in or near Birmingham, you might consult Annette Nicholson, an ex-Birmingham Royal Ballet soloist, and now a wonderful teacher. She offers, through her studio Nicholson Dance Studio,  a dancer screening for those who are aiming for vocational school

https://www.nicholsonschoolofdance.com/dancers-screenings

 

I don't know the cost, but you'd get excellent feedback and honest advice.

 

@drdance a member of this forum, might offer a similar assessment, also in the Midlands.

 

MODs: I hope it's OK to link this. I have no interest (financial or otherwise) in this enterprise, although I used to do class fairly regularly with Ms Nicholson when she taught at DanceXchange in central Birmingham, so I have direct personal experience of her positive nurturing approach to dancers of all abilities.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Kate_N
Typos

[LinMM]

Also I do believe that Sander Blommaert who used to dance with the Royal Ballet and until recently was teaching at Elmhurst has now opened his own Ballet School. 
I know it’s in or near Birmingham but not sure if exact address. 
He is very good at teaching and coaching pupils who are also late starters. 
He’s definitely worth a look at too and I took classes with him (as an adult learner) for a year when he used to teach at the BBO studios in London so know he’s okay and fully qualified etc. 
 

[LinMM]

I couldn’t get the link to post but anyway 

website is www.blommaertballetschool.com

and email is : blommaertballetschool@gmail.com 

[Jan McNulty]

Clickable link:

 

https://www.blommaertballetschool.com

[Kate_N]

Oh yes @LinMM - I did Mr Blommaert's Instagram classes during lockdown - he's an excellent teacher for clean strong technique & seems like a very supportive and positive mentor to his young students.  

[Drdee]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

If you're in or near Birmingham, you might consult Annette Nicholson, an ex-Birmingham Royal Ballet soloist, and now a wonderful teacher. She offers, through her studio Nicholson Dance Studio,  a dancer screening for those who are aiming for vocational school

https://www.nicholsonschoolofdance.com/dancers-screenings

 

I don't know the cost, but you'd get excellent feedback and honest advice.

 

@drdance a member of this forum, might offer a similar assessment, also in the Midlands.

 

MODs: I hope it's OK to link this. I have no interest (financial or otherwise) in this enterprise, although I used to do class fairly regularly with Ms Nicholson when she taught at DanceXchange in central Birmingham, so I have direct personal experience of her positive nurturing approach to dancers of all abilities.

I recommended Annette Nicholson @Squawk020 as she has very well priced ‘back to school’ 2 day summer/winter schools and her Sunday associates and private coaching. The screening service was around £90 when we used it (2018) and were able to

pay in instalments - it was very good and they set you a personalised strengthening plan. We have used her since 2016 and even now for preparing and filming audition videos for professional ballet jobs. As you said your funds are tight which means you need to weigh up each activity one at a time. As many said increasing your ballet classes would be a good plan of action. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Drdee
Word missing

[Kate_N]

Great to hear from someone who's worked with Ms Nicholson in this way!

 

My other suggestion @Squawk020in terms of discussion with your parents, is to take it step by step. At each step, you and your parents (separately and together) can review your options.

 

As others have said, you are setting a very high aim in auditioning for Elmhurst for post-16 training. There are many uncertainties. You don't know how you will fare in meeting the Elmhurst criteria. And I think you need to know that before you set your heart on any course of action.

 

But could you ask your parents for permission to audition, if it is clearly understood (and also allowed by Elmhurst) that if you are offered a place, that is a moment to pause and consider the next step, and that step may be to turn down the offer of a place.

 

You need to be sensible about this, and recognise that a) you may not be offered a place; or b) if you are, it is your parents' decision finally, because of the funding requirement.

 

I also think it might be a reasonable request to your parents to permit you to take this first step, as long as you are respectful of their decision were you to be offered a place. You will see whether you are of sufficient standard & ability to be offered a place at a vocational school, or not. It would be sad to go through the next few years of your life, wondering "what might have been." I've seen a few young adults rather blighted by this sort of regret. 

 

But you need to be prepared for not being offered a place.

 

If you were to be offered a place, but your parents cannot afford to fund it, then you have further options. It's not a disaster! You then will know that you have the standard of training required and the ability good enough to be offered a place. That would be great information to have! There's lots of advice here in this thread about alternative ways to approach your post-16 training.

 

Your main plan here might be to keep up your training so that you can audition for University-accredited dance degrees, which you would fund via student loans, and part-time work in the vacations, if necessary. Your starting point would be looking at the suggestions in this thread for more classes, as you're not really doing enough for the aspirations you have. Associates schemes, or well-taught live online classes with really experienced teachers - some names have already been mentioned in this thread (all of these will cost, but they are good options). 

 

Good luck.