Hyperextension and Instagram

[Beezie]

So geesh, apparently I have followed enough studios that Instagram spams me with ballet posts.  But here is what I just cannot believe…

 

I see so many school posts where the entire student body has extreme hyper extension.  We are talking 8 and 9 year olds whose feet are 10cm off the floor when sitting with their legs straight and extended.  Same with turnout.  The entire class of little ones has 180 degree turnout….and demonstrates it with absolutely no effort.

 

I know ‘Instagram vs Reality,’ but are there really schools that are this selective?  I always thought extreme hyper extension and full turnout were quite rare.  And if this really is a genetic gift, it seems quite improper to highlight these children while peddling stretches that claim to deliver the same results.

 

Ha!  If I am confused, I’m never letting my little dancer on Instagram to get ballet spam.  I cannot think of a quicker way to disenfranchise her love of ballet.

[Aklf]

58 minutes ago, Beezie said:

So geesh, apparently I have followed enough studios that Instagram spams me with ballet posts.  But here is what I just cannot believe…

 

I see so many school posts where the entire student body has extreme hyper extension.  We are talking 8 and 9 year olds whose feet are 10cm off the floor when sitting with their legs straight and extended.  Same with turnout.  The entire class of little ones has 180 degree turnout….and demonstrates it with absolutely no effort.

 

I know ‘Instagram vs Reality,’ but are there really schools that are this selective?  I always thought extreme hyper extension and full turnout were quite rare.  And if this really is a genetic gift, it seems quite improper to highlight these children while peddling stretches that claim to deliver the same results.

 

Ha!  If I am confused, I’m never letting my little dancer on Instagram to get ballet spam.  I cannot think of a quicker way to disenfranchise her love of ballet.

I agree that some content on Instagram showing young dancers in extreme/forced positions is concerning. Particularly when some posts encourage children to  try very dangerous exercises which will only result in injury. These would not be recommended by any qualified reputable teacher. It’s important that children are aware that extreme hyper mobility is extremely rare and they should always work safely within their own physical 

limits with advice on safe stretching from their teachers. 
Ballet is an art form and I personally would value artistry and dynamic performance above hyper mobility! 
Whilst there are also plenty of great safe stretching tips on Instagram you are right to be aware of the pitfalls,  especially with young children who can be easily influenced. 

[Peanut68]

14 minutes ago, Aklf said:

I agree that some content on Instagram showing young dancers in extreme/forced positions is concerning....

Ballet is an art form and I personally would value artistry and dynamic performance above hyper mobility! 
 

Very well put Aklf.... this has long been my bugbear...that freakish extreme stretches & leaps & tricks have become the norm on platforms like Instagram that we now expect them all the time.... but stop & look & does it actually look nice??? Much of the time, NO!! It’s ugly & disjointed & without any artistic or story telling or musicality merit. IMHO....

Classical Ballet seems to be compromising the all important beauty of the Classical line for bravarda & tricks more akin to circus skills. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Peanut68
Add

[RosiesDream]

10 hours ago, Aklf said:

Ballet is an art form and I personally would value artistry and dynamic performance above hyper mobility! 
 

 

Yes priorities have definitely changed.

Personally, I think hyper mobility is making ballet freakish, and I am morbidly bored with gratuitous knicker flashes. I expect anytime now, hoops, clubs and ropes will become normal props (I'll allow ribbons. La Fille Mal Gardee is one of my favourites) Surely there's got to be more to ballet? Maybe I'm just getting old...? (Don't answer that one!). 

[Beezie]

As funny as it sounds, I didn’t even know what hyper mobility was until a couple of years ago, when a took a barre class from a former dancer with extreme hyper mobility.

 

It looked so strange in-person that I had to go home and Google it.  I probably saw it on stage 100 times, and never noticed it.  But in an exercise class with normal ladies, it really looked really bizarre to see her knees appearing to bend backwards.  
 

Of course, now that I know what I am looking at, I see it everywhere in ballet.

 

Agree on artistry.  While I am a layperson, I love ballet.  …but not every ballet.  I love the ones that suck you into this incredible, emotional story…..and you leave thinking “How did they do that with no words or song?”  In that context, the hyper mobility and tricks have little value.  It is the grace, fluidity, and emotion that carries the story.  I catch myself watching the dancers face and arms as much as their legs.  I suspect others would call me an ‘amateur viewer’ but to each their own.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Beezie

[Dancers Dad]

I remain very glad that I kept my daughter off social media for as long as humanly possible!

 

I'm interested to read the above because my daughter's hypermobility has been as much a hindrance as a help - for example, when dancers have to put their arms out straight, her 'straight' is actually beyond 180 degrees because of her elbow hyperextension and she has had to work really hard to recognise where 'straight' actually is and hold her arms there instead.

[Aklf]

1 hour ago, Dancers Dad said:

I remain very glad that I kept my daughter off social media for as long as humanly possible!

 

I'm interested to read the above because my daughter's hypermobility has been as much a hindrance as a help - for example, when dancers have to put their arms out straight, her 'straight' is actually beyond 180 degrees because of her elbow hyperextension and she has had to work really hard to recognise where 'straight' actually is and hold her arms there instead.

Natural hyper mobility of some limbs is definitely a desirable asset for classical ballet and helps to achieve a lovely line. You’re right though it takes special training to control it and takes a little extra time. I think the issue regarding instagram

is when children are forced into unnatural positions for their physique and promoting over stretching limbs which is unsafe and not necessary for ballet training. 

[Beezie]

Aklf - Yes, the wisdom of showing children in unnatural positions and promoting over stretching.

 

….but my upset is also showing a full class of extremely hyper mobile and perfectly turned-out ballet children, like it is normal.  I wonder if these schools should disclose that they had to sift through hundreds of applicants to find these kids.  Or that they have less genetically perfect students who either weren’t put in the video or are obscured in the back of the class.  It feels like false advertising, possibly to young eyes who don’t know how to spot it.

 

If you have all the physical assets for a pro ballet career, than that is awesome!  But I can see an average child looking at those pictures and wanting to give-up straight away.  …and it makes me sad.  At a young age, ballet should be for everyone. 
 

And even some pro’s admit that they don’t have all the genetic assets.  They have to work hard to use all their natural turnout, or make sure their knees are pulled up to make their legs appear as straight as possible.

[Beezie]

It gives a very different impression when the caption of those pictures reads:

 

”At XXX school, we train flexibility at a young age with exercises like your see here.”

 

…vs what would probably be closer to reality….

 

”At XXX school, we select our children based on their turnout and hyper mobility.  Here you see our students learning how to fully utilize their natural range of motion.”

 

Clearly caption 2 sounds pretentious…which is why you never see it.  
 

Granted maybe the younger generation applies this logic all the time to social media.  I don’t know. (Kind of like crazy eyebrow pictures and the like.)

[Aklf]

9 minutes ago, Beezie said:

It gives a very different impression when the caption of those pictures reads:

 

”At XXX school, we train flexibility at a young age with exercises like your see here.”

 

…vs what would probably be closer to reality….

 

”At XXX school, we select our children based on their turnout and hyper mobility.  Here you see our students learning how to fully utilize their natural range of motion.”

 

Clearly caption 2 sounds pretentious…which is why you never see it.  
 

Granted maybe the younger generation applies this logic all the time to social media.  I don’t know. (Kind of like crazy eyebrow pictures and the like.)

I must confess I have never come across a school like you mention on Instagram. Now curious! Is it U.K. based? 
 

[Beezie]

One UK school, and a mess of Eastern European and Russian schools.  (Yeah, I know, maybe to be expected with Russian schools given their early selection of dancers.). Also, online flexibility classes in US….ads trying to sell a course subscription.  Maybe I just fell into an Instagram advertising hole that I need to get out of….silly algorithms.

[Fonty]

When I trained all those years ago, knee hyperextension was seen as a fault to be corrected, not something to be encouraged. 

[Tango Dancer]

1 hour ago, Beezie said:

 

And even some pro’s admit that they don’t have all the genetic assets.  They have to work hard to use all their natural turnout, or make sure their knees are pulled up to make their legs appear as straight as possible.

 

Definitely.  One of my favourite teachers (former professional ballet dancer) does not have amazing natural turnout.  He uses what he's got and has great technique and that works for him.  

 

I really wonder how much children are pressurised into doing things that are dangerous or take training shortcuts.  If I am asked to do something that feels uncomfortable or unsafe, I tell the teacher "that doesn't feel good" or "it hurts when I do that."  But then I'm a middle aged stroppy woman with no pretention to any ability in ballet.   If you're a child it's a lot harder to have the confidence to say when you depend on your teacher to promote / help your career.   

 

[Blue Box Ballet]

‘Epidemiological studies of hypermobile dancers indicate that although students are selected for hypermobility when auditioning for vocational schools, they are not represented in the higher ranks of professional companies. Fatigue and bone health experienced by hypermobile individuals in the general population provide an indication that hypermobile dancers may be more vulnerable to injury. The modest amount of research on injury rates in hypermobile dancers confirm that they have substantially more tendon injuries and longer healing times than normal dancers. In addition, the Beighton score used in most dance related studies may not be an appropriate measure of hypermobility in these populations. Further research is required into this vulnerable group of dancers in order to ensure that there is more understanding of the attrition rate from ballet schools to professional companies and health issues of the hypermobile dancer.’

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51240812_Hypermobility_and_Dance_A_Review
 

Royal ballet company in particular - high percentage of hyper mobility in corps de ballet/ lower ranks and low percentage in principals/ higher ranks. 
 

This suggests that the current trend/ fascination with hyper extension amongst certain corners of the dance world is not actually valued as highly or as much of an attribute as some might think. 
 

Certainly food for thought. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by CMcBallet
Grammar

[Peony]

Those studies of dancers appear to quite old 20-30 years and I am wondering what criteria they are using for ‘hypermobility’ that gave 0% of principals of RB/ ABT/ NYCB with it. Possibly they’ve adjusted the criteria to take account of training? To meet the ‘layperson’ definition of hypermobility you really don’t have to be amazingly bendy!

I’m not sure how much difference early stretching and training makes. The vast majority of babies are extremely flexible. It seems more common in some countries that parents who are aspiring for their children to be dancers/gymnasts will help them stretch from a very early age

[SissonneDoublee]

The article is 10 years old, and the research carried out was largely articles around another 10 years older again, with a heavy biais towards articles dealing with the difficulties/ negative aspects of hypermobility.
 

Looking at the work and photos during training of today’s principal dancers, I doubt the veracity of the claim that 0% have hypermobility. Current vocational training has a strong emphasis on strength and conditioning to support the flexible joints and avoid injury.

 

Hypermobility needs to be carefully supported with strengthening work, and should not be over-stretched as this is a quick route to injury. The encouragement of extreme stretching on social media or elsewhere is very irresponsible, and should be an alarm bell for any parent looking at dance schools.

[Ruby Foo]

On the news today, Calum Lowden, from Scottish Borders, who has been promoted to Principal at the Royal Swedish Ballet. He claims to be  very inflexible, not being able to do the splits or touch his toes.

[Fonty]

50 minutes ago, valentina said:

On the news today, Calum Lowden, from Scottish Borders, who has been promoted to Principal at the Royal Swedish Ballet. He claims to be  very inflexible, not being able to do the splits or touch his toes.

 

I saw that.  I can't believe for one minute that a man would be promoted to Principal if he was that inflexible now.  Was he saying that if he wasn't studying ballet his natural physique wouldn't allow him to do this?  I assumed that was the case, but perhaps I am wrong.

[Ruby Foo]

From what I gathered, he was never particularly flexible and that hadn’t changed!

[NJH]

On 10/10/2021 at 12:55, Tango Dancer said:

 

Definitely.  One of my favourite teachers (former professional ballet dancer) does not have amazing natural turnout.  He uses what he's got and has great technique and that works for him.  

 

I really wonder how much children are pressurised into doing things that are dangerous or take training shortcuts.  If I am asked to do something that feels uncomfortable or unsafe, I tell the teacher "that doesn't feel good" or "it hurts when I do that."  But then I'm a middle aged stroppy woman with no pretention to any ability in ballet.   If you're a child it's a lot harder to have the confidence to say when you depend on your teacher to promote / help your career.   

 

a certain teacher , who i'm increasingly less  enamoured with due to attitude and  outside the studio behaviour towards other  adult dancers , does make a very good comment in 2 no one pays t owatch you  from the side " 

In my  private class with an entirely different teacher we ended up putting tape lines on the studio floor  ( this teacher in the principal of her schools so  absolutely no qualms aobut  such - also if you look at the floor in may  pro comoany studios  there are tape lines all over to represent stage dimensions or fixed points in the choreo) when looking at some of the Centre work in RAD Intermediate to make best advantage of my  'safe' turn out 

[Pas de Quatre]

I agree that much of what is seen on social media is extreme, it really does need the old warning "don't try this at home"!  However there is a big difference between hypermobility and flexibility.  Hypermobility is a laxness in the joints, it may affect just a few or most of them, it is inborn.  Flexibility is achieved by lengthening muscles and tendons.  Frequently a dancer with hypermobile, sway back knees, actually has very tight hamstrings.  Stretching needs to be very well explained and targetted as otherwise it can simply overstretch the knees without doing anything to the hamstrings!  That is just one example, but an important one.

[Blue Box Ballet]

On 11/10/2021 at 09:24, Peony said:

Those studies of dancers appear to quite old 20-30 years and I am wondering what criteria they are using for ‘hypermobility’ that gave 0% of principals of RB/ ABT/ NYCB with it. Possibly they’ve adjusted the criteria to take account of training? To meet the ‘layperson’ definition of hypermobility you really don’t have to be amazingly bendy!

I’m not sure how much difference early stretching and training makes. The vast majority of babies are extremely flexible. It seems more common in some countries that parents who are aspiring for their children to be dancers/gymnasts will help them stretch from a very early age

Absolutely valid criticism. 
There have been more recent studies carried out by RBS/ RB company that I have been presented with but sadly I can’t find the links right now. 
 

[Anna C]

On 13/10/2021 at 11:14, Pas de Quatre said:

I agree that much of what is seen on social media is extreme, it really does need the old warning "don't try this at home"!  However there is a big difference between hypermobility and flexibility.  Hypermobility is a laxness in the joints, it may affect just a few or most of them, it is inborn.  Flexibility is achieved by lengthening muscles and tendons.  Frequently a dancer with hypermobile, sway back knees, actually has very tight hamstrings.  Stretching needs to be very well explained and targetted as otherwise it can simply overstretch the knees without doing anything to the hamstrings!  That is just one example, but an important one.

 

A very good point, PdQ.  Hypermobile joints can be more of a curse than a blessing; they can be more prone to injury, they often lack strength (flat turnout is not much good without the strength to HOLD the turnout when working), and hypermobile dancers can often have very low proprioception, which can mean teaching them can be more challenging.  When my dd was 11 or so, one of her Teachers questioned the flexibility of her feet and her ability to point her toes - she had plenty of flexibility but lacked the ability to activate her hamstrings and to actually feel the muscles necessary to sustain the point. 

 

As you say, the muscles and tendons can be very tight, and unless a hypermobile dancer is prescribed tailored stretches, they can do more harm than good by simply doing whatever stretches their classmates are doing.  

 

Further along the spectrum, hypermobile joints can sublax or dislocate, be painful, cause tendonitis - in short, they may look desirable and give graceful lines, but they can be a real problem, especially if not managed properly.

 

I cringe every time I see a dancer “sitting back” into a swayback knee, and I loathe seeing anyone - children or adults - overstretching, doing splits between two chairs and so on.  It’s not going to give them hypermobile joints, it might increase flexibility but it’s an unsafe way to do so, and at what cost in the future?  

[Blue Box Ballet]

https://australianballet.com.au/behind-ballet/strength-beats-stretch

 

https://dancemagazine.com.au/2019/09/why-the-australian-ballet-dancers-quit-stretching/

 

worth a read! 

 

[Dancers Dad]

23 hours ago, CMcBallet said:

https://australianballet.com.au/behind-ballet/strength-beats-stretch

 

https://dancemagazine.com.au/2019/09/why-the-australian-ballet-dancers-quit-stretching/

 

worth a read! 

 

Great articles, thanks. And completely chimes with what the two S&C specialists my daughter has seen say. All about the strength. Cold, pre-class stretching of little or no value and actually can damage - yet nearly everyone in class still does it.

[Anna C]

44 minutes ago, Dancers Dad said:

Great articles, thanks. And completely chimes with what the two S&C specialists my daughter has seen say. All about the strength. Cold, pre-class stretching of little or no value and actually can damage - yet nearly everyone in class still does it.

 

I concur.  I used to have to remind dd not to do any actual stretches until after a full barre.  Pre-class warm up is one thing, actively or passively stretching cold muscles and ligaments is quite another - we still used to see so many children and teens doing it pre-class or pre-audition (the latter, especially when done “competitively” is always best ignored!).

[Beezie]

Great articles!  If anyone has an article on pre-class warm-up the is geared for younger children and follows the idea of dynamic stretching, I’d love some tips.  My daughter has some time to warm up before class on her own, and probably defaults to static stretches.  (Though she does a quick jog around the block first.)

 

Likewise for home stretching.  Or should home stretching really be replaced with home strengthening?

 

The act of getting into a split is still commonly seen as THE accomplishment by children.  And still taught with a lot of static stretches…though I think most studios have now moved these to the end of class.  But it doesn’t stop kids from wanting to practice these at home, where it is a lot harder to really warm up.

[Blue Box Ballet]

2 hours ago, Beezie said:

Great articles!  If anyone has an article on pre-class warm-up the is geared for younger children and follows the idea of dynamic stretching, I’d love some tips.  My daughter has some time to warm up before class on her own, and probably defaults to static stretches.  (Though she does a quick jog around the block first.)

 

Likewise for home stretching.  Or should home stretching really be replaced with home strengthening?

 

The act of getting into a split is still commonly seen as THE accomplishment by children.  And still taught with a lot of static stretches…though I think most studios have now moved these to the end of class.  But it doesn’t stop kids from wanting to practice these at home, where it is a lot harder to really warm up

 

Another good article on hyper mobility 

https://www.healthydancercanada.org/uploads/4/7/1/3/47130231/hdc_understandinghypermobility_rp_2019.pdf

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by CMcBallet
Clarity

[Raquelle]

2 hours ago, Beezie said:

Great articles!  If anyone has an article on pre-class warm-up the is geared for younger children and follows the idea of dynamic stretching, I’d love some tips.  My daughter has some time to warm up before class on her own, and probably defaults to static stretches.  (Though she does a quick jog around the block first.)

 

Likewise for home stretching.  Or should home stretching really be replaced with home strengthening?

 

The act of getting into a split is still commonly seen as THE accomplishment by children.  And still taught with a lot of static stretches…though I think most studios have now moved these to the end of class.  But it doesn’t stop kids from wanting to practice these at home, where it is a lot harder to really warm up.

I don't really have much advice Beezie in terms of a pre class warm up..for Jas/in my dd school their warm up tends to be more skips, star jumps, marches with a few arm movements rather than stretches per se. In her new school they are very very careful with stretches and tell them not to do splits etc and certainly not oversplits....its a lot more about conditioning and strengthening and I think (hopefully) flexibility will come from dancing rather than lots of stretching....

[Blue Box Ballet]

2 hours ago, Beezie said:

Great articles!  If anyone has an article on pre-class warm-up the is geared for younger children and follows the idea of dynamic stretching, I’d love some tips.  My daughter has some time to warm up before class on her own, and probably defaults to static stretches.  (Though she does a quick jog around the block first.)

 

Likewise for home stretching.  Or should home stretching really be replaced with home strengthening?

 

The act of getting into a split is still commonly seen as THE accomplishment by children.  And still taught with a lot of static stretches…though I think most studios have now moved these to the end of class.  But it doesn’t stop kids from wanting to practice these at home, where it is a lot harder to really warm up.

more useful links 

 

https://humankinetics.me/2019/03/04/what-is-the-ramp-warm-up/

 

(uses the RAMP protocol): 

https://www.strengthmotionmind.com/11-dance

YouTube overview:

 

youtube links below are complete workout playlists.

(Minus skipping with a skipping rope):

 

 

 

 

https://iadms.org/media/3598/iadms-resource-paper-the-importance-of-a-good-warm-up.pdf
 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by CMcBallet
Clarity

[Thecatsmother]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3365276/

 

lots of other negative aspects to hyper mobility which are often not discussed.

[Dancers Dad]

6 hours ago, Thecatsmother said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3365276/

 

lots of other negative aspects to hyper mobility which are often not discussed.

Interesting. Quite early stage research and simply stating a correlation - but I'm still curious. I'd be interested in the social factors that play a role - eg Do hypermobile people go into training/careers that have a higher likelihood of stress? Also, the definitions of both hypermobility and anxiety are wide open for interpretation. So while I'm interested in this, I wouldn't draw any conclusions.

[Jewel]

Hyper-mobility is often co-morbid with neuro-diversity which in itself often leads to anxiety. That fact might skew figures.