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Visiting Stage Door/Royal Ballet Dancers post-Covid


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26 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

I'm not quite sure this is the right thread for this article but the thread has somewhat transmogrified from stage door to attendance in general & I can't think of a more appropriate existant thread so... https://bachtrack.com/opinion-covid-19-face-masks-audiences-london-september-2021

I found this article both interesting and, as I'm due to go to the ROH for the first time since March 2020 in 10 days' time, decidedly worrying. I may have to re-think going if the ROH ballet audiences are going to be as bad at mask wearing as the ROH opera audiences evidently are being.

 

A thought-provoking article and the possibility that non mask wearing might result in theatres needing to be closed again is too awful to contemplate.

Sadler's Wells this week...... Possibly 25% masked. Quite a bit of coughing near me. 

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I don't think I'm reassuring Dawnstar by saying this, but I'd repeat that even strict mask wearing - and therefore its opposite - is unlikely to make much difference.

 

(For a long time it looked as if it would, but the studies undertaken seem to have produced disappointing results.)

Edited by Lizbie1
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At today’s Jenufa rehearsal I thought 80% plus of audience members were wearing masks. The reverse on the trains unfortunately with mask wearing 20% at best. The ROH’s notices and announcements are good but I’m afraid the Government’s laissez faire approach to mask wearing etc doesn’t help at all.

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2 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I don't think I'm reassuring Dawnstar by saying this, but I'd repeat that even strict mask wearing - and therefore its opposite - is unlikely to make much difference.

 

(For a long time it looked as if it would, but the studies undertaken seem to have produced disappointing results.)

It depends on the mask.  At first, I wore one to protect other people but now I'm going to the theatre again I have bought a mask that Which says is 94% effective for the wearer too:
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/face-masks/article/best-reusable-face-masks-awLeA3A6XoZD

It does make me feel safer, anyhow!

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3 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I don't think I'm reassuring Dawnstar by saying this, but I'd repeat that even strict mask wearing - and therefore its opposite - is unlikely to make much difference.

 

(For a long time it looked as if it would, but the studies undertaken seem to have produced disappointing results.)

 

Aaargh!!

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6 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I don't think I'm reassuring Dawnstar by saying this, but I'd repeat that even strict mask wearing - and therefore its opposite - is unlikely to make much difference.

 

(For a long time it looked as if it would, but the studies undertaken seem to have produced disappointing results.)

 

that is a hugely irresponsible thing to say

 

"Evidence suggests transmission mainly happens indoors where people are close together.

Face coverings worn over the nose and mouth reduce the spread of coronavirus droplets from coughs, sneezes and while speaking.

The main purpose is to protect others. If everyone wears one, the risks drop for all.

There is some evidence they offer protection to wearers, but are not a replacement for social distancing and hand-washing.

Masks can also help reduce virus spread from contagious people with no symptoms."

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7 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

that is a hugely irresponsible thing to say

 

"Evidence suggests transmission mainly happens indoors where people are close together.

Face coverings worn over the nose and mouth reduce the spread of coronavirus droplets from coughs, sneezes and while speaking.

The main purpose is to protect others. If everyone wears one, the risks drop for all.

There is some evidence they offer protection to wearers, but are not a replacement for social distancing and hand-washing.

Masks can also help reduce virus spread from contagious people with no symptoms."

 

I'm still wearing them in shops and theatres and on public transport. I'm simply saying that it's not, alas, as simple as "everyone wears masks, nobody catches Covid". If you can point me to a reputable study that shows something substantially better than a 1 in 8 reduction I'd be interested to see it.

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51 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I'm still wearing them in shops and theatres and on public transport. I'm simply saying that it's not, alas, as simple as "everyone wears masks, nobody catches Covid". If you can point me to a reputable study that shows something substantially better than a 1 in 8 reduction I'd be interested to see it.

 

No one is saying it is reduced to zero transmission, but if everyone masked in an indoor area (of poor ventilation) where you can't practice social distancing (such as public transport, shops, theatres, pubs) then masks help. From what I've read, the reduction much better than 12.5%, assuming people wear them properly.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

 

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19 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

No one is saying it is reduced to zero transmission, but if everyone masked in an indoor area (of poor ventilation) where you can't practice social distancing (such as public transport, shops, theatres, pubs) then masks help. From what I've read, the reduction much better than 12.5%, assuming people wear them properly.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

 

 

Thank you! I meant a "real world" study, but that is interesting.

 

I think "assuming people wear them properly" is the catch.

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8 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

I think "assuming people wear them properly" is the catch.

Exactly...very often worn under the nose, hanging off one ear etc. Many people are never going to wear them "properly". In any event  I think the dehumanising aspect of mask wearing, in terms of how we are unable to see people fully, and understand and react to them through normal facial expressions, is very debilitating and needs to be taken into account. 

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I’ve been lucky at recent Sadlers Wells performances as on those two occasions people sitting around me have had masks on although it was a bit 50-50 in general throughout the theatre.  
I did contact the theatre after the first performance because although they said they strongly recommended and encouraged people to wear masks at all times etc etc they still allowed people to take drinks into the auditorium .....so very conducive to mask wearing lol! I know this is permitted in normal times but I would have thought a bit of a no no just at the moment. 
Both on the phone and via email they were sympathetic but the gist was they weren’t in control of the “selfish” actions of others and other theatres allowed it so it seemed to be a difficult position for them. 
Knowing everything I have gathered to date about Covid transmission I would have thought theatres are a prime place for it because of the close proximity you are to others plus the length of time etc. But am obviously willing to take the risk!! 
I do think mask wearing is a small price to ask people to pay in such a scenario even if help in a small way. I do hate them though. 

 

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I couldn’t see in the article linked what the effectiveness of cloth masks is? 
still wearing mine as an additional measure to protect others as I’m not too worried myself. The effectiveness of everything else is minimal in comparison to vaccination, which is incredibly effective. Yet still loads of people not vaccinated, especially in London. 

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5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

At the Theatre Royal in Nottingham last night staff were handing out disposable masks to people who didn’t have masks with them.  Most people seemed to keep them on during the performance too.

 

That sounds like a gentle hint that worked!

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3 hours ago, alison said:

And people still getting "breakthrough" infections despite being vaccinated - not sure whether any patterns to this have been detected yet.

 On a population basis you’re about 60% less likely to test positive and less likely to transmit it. That includes the immunosupressed/  elderly who react less well to the vaccine so you’re particular risk depends on who you are. Young health people will be less than 60% less likely to get it. 
It’s not quite as good as before we had delta but still very good. 
presuming the majority of people who have covid will isolate because they have symptoms or are doing precautionary lateral flows the risk of you catching covid from some who has been vaccinated are pretty small, the extra benefit of a face covering is pretty tiny. Covid is endemic now so people will continue to get it. At some point there has to be a reassessment of what the benefits are. Personally I think as we’re still working out how to use the vaccines with boosters and longer courses for the immunosupressed, a lot of children still not vaccinated etc the small benefit is worth it but at some point that will change. Almost everyone was wearing one prior to rule changes so I really don’t think it’s fair to judge individuals or call them selfish. If there’s a benefit they should be mandated, the responsibility rests with our government 

Edited by Peony
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There can be additional benefits to wearing a mask as friends and I have discovered over the past year:

 

It keeps your face warmer in winter.

 

It can help when you are gardening if you suffer from hay fever.

 

It can hide a broken tooth while you are waiting for it to be repaired.

 

 

If wearing a mask means that even 1% fewer people catch Covid then we should continue wearing them in situations where it is more likely to spread.

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The effect will be much, much smaller than 1% reduction in cases though, because someone with covid would have to be present and transmit it.

I have respiratory disease and genuinely can’t tolerate cloth so I’m unfortunately contributing to the enormous impact on the environment. Daughter has had to step up acne treatment because masks exacerbate it. It just depends when you think the down sides reach the tipping point. Personally I think that should be done by the qualified experts rather than on an individual basis 

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I agree about experts Peony but they can't seem to agree amongst themselves.  

 

Dr Chris Smith and Professor Linda Bauld, who are usually on BBC Breakfast on Saturday mornings both seem to speak sensibly and they both said they are still wearing masks in crowded indoor places.

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6 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Exactly...very often worn under the nose, hanging off one ear etc. Many people are never going to wear them "properly". In any event  I think the dehumanising aspect of mask wearing, in terms of how we are unable to see people fully, and understand and react to them through normal facial expressions, is very debilitating and needs to be taken into account. 

 

Well, I've been very interested in how easily people seem to recognise me and I them - even in the street or places where we wouldn't normally expect to encounter one another. So the masks can't be that much of an impediment. And, after all, a lot of expression is in one's eyes.  I do not feel dehumanised myself.

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1 hour ago, Peony said:

The effect will be much, much smaller than 1% reduction in cases though, because someone with covid would have to be present and transmit it.

I have respiratory disease and genuinely can’t tolerate cloth so I’m unfortunately contributing to the enormous impact on the environment. Daughter has had to step up acne treatment because masks exacerbate it. It just depends when you think the down sides reach the tipping point. Personally I think that should be done by the qualified experts rather than on an individual basis 

I think that statement is completely unjustified by any evidence. There is surely no doubt that in crowded, indoor situations if the majority of people wear masks there will some reduction in the number of people catching covid. Perhaps there are no definitive studies on how many, but any reduction in people catching this awful virus is surely to be appreciated. 

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Just now, DanJL said:

I think that statement is completely unjustified by any evidence. There is surely no doubt that in crowded, indoor situations if the majority of people wear masks there will some reduction in the number of people catching covid. Perhaps there are no definitive studies on how many, but any reduction in people catching this awful virus is surely to be appreciated. 

It’s not unjustified to say it’s much less than 1% benefit overall, you just have to look at the statistics! Work out the probability of anyone having covid in the venue, then the probability that they will transit it (particularly if vaccinated), then the benefit of a mask. It comes to a very small number overall 

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1 hour ago, Peony said:

It’s not unjustified to say it’s much less than 1% benefit overall, you just have to look at the statistics! Work out the probability of anyone having covid in the venue, then the probability that they will transit it (particularly if vaccinated), then the benefit of a mask. It comes to a very small number overall 

Well the current best estimate is that 1 in 90 people in England are infected. Remembering that a third of those show no symptoms and a decent amount more will be in the early stages before symptoms appear. The vaccine cuts transition but only by a small amount. Then thinking about how many people at a packed venue will be sat within 2 metres of you, plus people you might encounter in the intervals etc. surely equates to somewhere near 1%?

 

None of us are experts, but as mentioned above, the scientists that are experts generally recommend using masks indoors and do so themselves. 

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8 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

I agree about experts Peony but they can't seem to agree amongst themselves.  

 

Dr Chris Smith and Professor Linda Bauld, who are usually on BBC Breakfast on Saturday mornings both seem to speak sensibly and they both said they are still wearing masks in crowded indoor places.

indeed the only  indoor 'public' places  i'm not wearing a face covering at present  are
the ballet studio 
 at work within a certain  parameters  - bascially parts of the site are laid out now in such a way that if you are a workbench  you  don't need to be wearing a mask 

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6 hours ago, DanJL said:

Well the current best estimate is that 1 in 90 people in England are infected. Remembering that a third of those show no symptoms and a decent amount more will be in the early stages before symptoms appear. The vaccine cuts transition but only by a small amount. Then thinking about how many people at a packed venue will be sat within 2 metres of you, plus people you might encounter in the intervals etc. surely equates to somewhere near 1%?

 

None of us are experts, but as mentioned above, the scientists that are experts generally recommend using masks indoors and do so themselves. 

 1 in 90 is the ONS estimate it’s not the actual testing figure which is lower. It includes those in early stages. And 2-15 year olds are the group most affected by about 2.5 x and they’re not that numerous at most general performances. Covid is rife amongst children how are almost all

unvaccinated which skews the figures enormously. Over 93% of adults have antibodies to covid. Indicators are that the vaccine is still over 60% effective against delta.  The R number is below 1. Infection rate is dropping in all age groups apart from kids
 

As Jan says above the experts don’t always agree. The truth is that nobody knows as it’s not straightforward and there’s a lack of information. You can see that in the widely inaccurate scientific modelling. I’m perfectly happy to go along with Chris Whitby’s advice myself as I find it pretty measured and sensible. However, I do dislike the way we’re all encouraged to judge others when they’re acting in a perfectly lawful manner. 
 

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