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2 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Beautifully expressed Lizbie.

 

Thank you! Really, this kind of discussion is what makes this forum so valuable - disagreeing civilly with reasons attached rather than people simply saying, "you're wrong".

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On 12/07/2021 at 12:25, Jeannette said:

 

Sorry to disagree but the fishdives segment is one of THE wow moments in the entire balletic cannon...like the 32 fouettes in SL. I expect sheer explosion. Pow! I’ll never forget when Cojocaru/Kobborg   performed them here at the Kennedy Center. 

 

Go Big or Go Home.

 

 

 

 

 


completely agree … this is a one of those WOW moments.  I like your phrase …Go Big or Go Home!
 

Naghdi/Bonelli were only slightly quicker on Sunday than Nunez/Vadim in the stream, and Bonelli looked close to losing control, but at least he and Naghdi had a go!   She sparkled throughout, as well as the costume and tiara..  Fabulous  

 

Edited by FionaE
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Surely, all sorts of considerations come into play where fish dives are concerned. It is all too easy for the ballerina to knock her partner off balance and, however strong and secure he might be, her weight is a factor - but one I don’t propose to dissect in detail.

The expression “Go big or go home” doesn’t sit easily with me at all, whoever is involved, as it seems to border on the disrespectful.

I was one of the lucky people who saw both Nunez/Muntagirov and Naghdi/Bonelli live and felt it a privilege to be able to witness such illustrious dancing from them all.

 

 

 

Edited by capybara
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8 minutes ago, capybara said:

The expression “Go big or go home” doesn’t sit easily with me at all, whoever is involved, as it seems to border on the disrespectful.

 

I think it was meant light-heartedly - it's only ever been used that way around me.

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24 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

The expression “Go big or go home” doesn’t sit easily with me at all, whoever is involved, as it seems to border on the disrespectful.

 

 

The crudity of the phrase doesn't do justice to the skill and art of (some of) our dancers.  Unlike you, @capybara, I only saw Núñez/Muntagirov but I did think their unusually slow pace in the fish dives gave a very grand impression, every moment savoured in its perfection.  Of course these two are more than capable of performing at speed, as they have proved over and over again, but their artistic judgement was good enough for me.  They were quite simply superb.

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I was lucky enough to see Osipova / Clarke, Nuñez / Muntagirov and Naghdi / Bonelli live in this run and can honestly say I found all their fish dives, varied as they were in speed, at least as exciting as the two clips above. 

 

I agree that it's all personal preference. But for me at least, the point is that both slow and fast fish dives can be exciting, yes also both can be musical and lyrical. It's not a case of every dancer choosing one over the other - we can enjoy all the different interpretations. Stylistically Nuñez and Muntagirov choose to draw out the move, presumably because they believe that works best with their overall style. It's a choice I enjoy, but of course other preferences exist 🙂

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On 14/07/2021 at 18:08, MJW said:

Regarding the comments about Voices of Spring  you may find the Masterclass with Merle Park and Wayne Eagling organised by the Frederick Ashton Foundation quite interesting - link below

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo1A73hPC8U

I really enjoyed watching this. I found it interesting that the original male casting, Eagking and then Cassidy, was along the more heroic build, but the role now seems cast with more compact dancers. Most noticeably, the emphasis was very much on style and characterisation. Watching the complete Park / Eagling performance, there was no sense of technical limitation (why would there be as the choreography was created on these dancers) and yet in the Masterclass, at the rehearsal I saw and on the stream, the dancers seemed uncomfortable, even inhibited by the demands.

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1 hour ago, Jamesrhblack said:

I really enjoyed watching this. I found it interesting that the original male casting, Eagking and then Cassidy, was along the more heroic build, but the role now seems cast with more compact dancers. Most noticeably, the emphasis was very much on style and characterisation. Watching the complete Park / Eagling performance, there was no sense of technical limitation (why would there be as the choreography was created on these dancers) and yet in the Masterclass, at the rehearsal I saw and on the stream, the dancers seemed uncomfortable, even inhibited by the demands.

I also love the performances of past casts. As you say, they made it look effortless and also understood it so well. 

In defence of the dancers at the Masterclass, they had never danced together before. 

I will get around to watching the stream soon. 

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2 hours ago, Jamesrhblack said:

I really enjoyed watching this. I found it interesting that the original male casting, Eagking and then Cassidy, was along the more heroic build, but the role now seems cast with more compact dancers.

 

Yes, I noticed that, and wondered if it made a difference.  I suspect it does.

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I'm loving this discussion about the fishdives, BTW.  It was only this morning that I remembered they're a later accretion, so not authentic at all anyway :)

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1 hour ago, alison said:

I'm loving this discussion about the fishdives, BTW.  It was only this morning that I remembered they're a later accretion, so not authentic at all anyway :)

 

Yes - but I think not rejected by Ratmansky when he made his quasi-authentic version. So presumably he considered them in keeping with the whole.

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35 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Yes - but I think not rejected by Ratmansky when he made his quasi-authentic version. So presumably he considered them in keeping with the whole.

I believe that Ratmansky has had second thoughts and removed them from more recent performances.

They were introduced by Pierre Vladimiroff, who danced the Prince in the Diaghilev production in 1921, clearly with the intention of adding a “flashy effect” to the pdd. One of the Auroras refused to perform what she called an “acrobatic feat”.

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I didn't know the fishdives dated from 1921, thanks for this interesting information. I watched the pdd last night and enjoyed the unhurried and gracious way Nunez/Muntagirov danced it.

 

 

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Fascinating! Fonteyn and Blair are so exciting - fast, light, flowing, musical, and with an air of otherworldliness that tells us this is a fairy tale, a fantasy; almost as if they're oblivious of the audience and dancing purely in their world. All their dancing is a means to an end not an end in itself. Terrific.

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12 hours ago, DanJL said:

I was lucky enough to see Osipova / Clarke, Nuñez / Muntagirov and Naghdi / Bonelli live in this run and can honestly say I found all their fish dives, varied as they were in speed, at least as exciting as the two clips above. 

 

I agree that it's all personal preference. But for me at least, the point is that both slow and fast fish dives can be exciting, yes also both can be musical and lyrical. It's not a case of every dancer choosing one over the other - we can enjoy all the different interpretations. Stylistically Nuñez and Muntagirov choose to draw out the move, presumably because they believe that works best with their overall style. It's a choice I enjoy, but of course other preferences exist 🙂

If my memory serves me, don't the Russian companies leave out the fish-dives altogether? At least the Marinsky.  Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

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Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier but didn’t have time to watch then so thought I’d re visit and now can’t find the post 🤔 

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7 hours ago, LinMM said:

Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier

 

copyright issues, so you'll have to hunt them down on YouTube, if they are still there

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A number of posts on this thread have been deleted in line with our Acceptable Use Policy.  We’d like to remind members of the following, from the AUP:

 

Videos, photos and copyright issues The very widespread availability of videos and photographs on media websites such as YouTube, photo sharing and so-called ‘torrent’ sites which allow media downloads raises problems of acknowledgement and copyright. When links to videos and photos are made on this site it is the member's responsibility to satisfy themselves that rights are respected. We reserve the right to remove links where we believe this not to be the case.

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On 17/07/2021 at 00:35, LinMM said:

Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier but didn’t have time to watch then so thought I’d re visit and now can’t find the post 🤔 

LinMM, the one really worth watching of those two was an old one of the French Opera Ballet, which is danced exquisitely and looks as though it is straight out of a Perrault fairy tale.  Search for Dupont and Legris.  (Of course, the still-beautiful Aurelie Dupont is now the Director of POB.)

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4 hours ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

LinMM, the one really worth watching of those two was an old one of the French Opera Ballet, which is danced exquisitely and looks as though it is straight out of a Perrault fairy tale.  Search for Dupont and Legris.  (Of course, the still-beautiful Aurelie Dupont is now the Director of POB.)

I do so agree.  The designs could be by Poussin or Watteau

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3 hours ago, Shade said:

Off topic but did anyone else get pinged by the COVID app after last Sunday? I just have but no symptoms.

 

I've moved the rest of the "pinging" discussion to its own separate thread:

 

I fear we're going to have a lot more to say on the subject, if the weekend's headlines are anything to go by :(

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Well - they've just posted a clip of the fish dives from the broadcast.

 

 

Seems slower than I remember them from the first night.

 

Edited to add: my guess is that few minds will be changed by this - mine certainly wasn't.

Edited by Lizbie1
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  • alison changed the title to Royal Ballet: Beauty Mixed Programme, July 2021

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