Royal Ballet: Beauty Mixed Programme, July 2021

[Borzoi]

12 hours ago, DanJL said:

I was lucky enough to see Osipova / Clarke, Nuñez / Muntagirov and Naghdi / Bonelli live in this run and can honestly say I found all their fish dives, varied as they were in speed, at least as exciting as the two clips above. 

 

I agree that it's all personal preference. But for me at least, the point is that both slow and fast fish dives can be exciting, yes also both can be musical and lyrical. It's not a case of every dancer choosing one over the other - we can enjoy all the different interpretations. Stylistically Nuñez and Muntagirov choose to draw out the move, presumably because they believe that works best with their overall style. It's a choice I enjoy, but of course other preferences exist 🙂

If my memory serves me, don't the Russian companies leave out the fish-dives altogether? At least the Marinsky.  Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

[Two Pigeons]

That's right, they do.  Aurora does a reverse pirouette and then leans back into Florimund's outstretched arm.

[LinMM]

Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier but didn’t have time to watch then so thought I’d re visit and now can’t find the post 🤔 

[zxDaveM]

7 hours ago, LinMM said:

Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier

 

copyright issues, so you'll have to hunt them down on YouTube, if they are still there

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

A number of posts on this thread have been deleted in line with our Acceptable Use Policy.  We’d like to remind members of the following, from the AUP:

 

Videos, photos and copyright issues The very widespread availability of videos and photographs on media websites such as YouTube, photo sharing and so-called ‘torrent’ sites which allow media downloads raises problems of acknowledgement and copyright. When links to videos and photos are made on this site it is the member's responsibility to satisfy themselves that rights are respected. We reserve the right to remove links where we believe this not to be the case.

[maryrosesatonapin]

On 17/07/2021 at 00:35, LinMM said:

Have two films of fish diving couples been removed? 
Im sure I saw them in a post earlier but didn’t have time to watch then so thought I’d re visit and now can’t find the post 🤔 

LinMM, the one really worth watching of those two was an old one of the French Opera Ballet, which is danced exquisitely and looks as though it is straight out of a Perrault fairy tale.  Search for Dupont and Legris.  (Of course, the still-beautiful Aurelie Dupont is now the Director of POB.)

[Shade]

Off topic but did anyone else get pinged by the COVID app after last Sunday? I just have but no symptoms.

[Balletfanp]

No, I haven’t.

[Two Pigeons]

4 hours ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

LinMM, the one really worth watching of those two was an old one of the French Opera Ballet, which is danced exquisitely and looks as though it is straight out of a Perrault fairy tale.  Search for Dupont and Legris.  (Of course, the still-beautiful Aurelie Dupont is now the Director of POB.)

I do so agree.  The designs could be by Poussin or Watteau

[alison]

3 hours ago, Shade said:

Off topic but did anyone else get pinged by the COVID app after last Sunday? I just have but no symptoms.

 

I've moved the rest of the "pinging" discussion to its own separate thread:

 

I fear we're going to have a lot more to say on the subject, if the weekend's headlines are anything to go by

[Lizbie1]

Well - they've just posted a clip of the fish dives from the broadcast.

 

 

Seems slower than I remember them from the first night.

 

Edited to add: my guess is that few minds will be changed by this - mine certainly wasn't.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Lizbie1

[Jan McNulty]

Thanks Lizbie.

 

They just look to careful for me.  I would prefer something faster with an element of excitement even if they may look untidier.

[Beryl H]

On 18/07/2021 at 16:03, alison said:

 

I've moved the rest of the "pinging" discussion to its own separate thread:

 

I fear we're going to have a lot more to say on the subject, if the weekend's headlines are anything to go by

 

Yes, the next thing is a pingademic!

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

They just look to careful for me.  I would prefer something faster with an element of excitement even if they may look untidier.

 

I agree. Otherwise they become more of a way of getting into the final 'pose' rather than the whole move/movement mattering.

[alison]

Just been catching up on the livestream of this (which is still up until tomorrow), and thought I had to say that I thought Beatriz Stix-Brunell was sublime in the After the Rain pdd.  The close-ups the streaming allowed really added to the impression I'd had from the upper reaches of the theatre: she looked absolutely blissful.

 

I miss her already ...

[FLOSS]

There are great musicians of the past such as Cortot who entered the recording studio and played as they would in recital and today if they are remembered at all they are remembered for the "Number of wrong notes committed to record in the name of art". Needless to say the knowledge that your legacy could well end up being your mistakes has had a dampening effect on studio recordings. Something similar has happened in the world of classical dance where today with the ubiquitous mobile phone you can never be sure whether or not someone is recording your performance for posterity.

 

The fish dives are part of the western tradition of Sleeping Beauty having made their first appearance in the ballet's grand pas de deux in London in 1921. According to Dolin they were introduced into the text by Vladimirov who had been engaged to dance the Prince. I can't say whether or not they were Vladimirov's invention. All I can say is that a great deal of technical experimentation took place in the aftermath of the Revolution as state institutions adapted to performing to a less sophisticated and knowledgeable audience than they had previously performed for. The Russian version of the ballet remains truer to the original in that respect than western versions are.  As an indication of how firmly entrenched the fish dives are  in western tradition when Ratmansky staged his Sleeping Beauty for ABT based on the Sergeyev  materials he felt obliged to retain them because to western audiences they are an essential part of the text.

 

I have to say I much prefer fish dives where you don't see the mechanics at all just the effect. That is how they used to be done in the dim and distant past by the likes of Sibley and Dowell. But then those dancers worked in a world in which there was much less opportunity for unauthorised recordings than today and the dance aesthetic was governed by the tastes of major choreographers who held to Fokine's ideas about the place of technique in the great scheme of things. Basically it was a world in which technique was a means to an end and never an end in itself in which a technically gifted dancer with little else to offer would be described as a "only a technician".

 

I think that two factors have worked together to produce this deadly dull mechanical effect and lack of apparent spontaneity in performances. The first is the way that today's obsession with perfectly performed classroom steps and enchainements has made its way into theatrical performance and come to dominate what we see in the theatre regardless of whether classroom steps are what the choreographer wanted the audience to see in performance or whether the music has to be significantly slowed down in order to achieve them. In many ways the failure to recognise and observe a clear distinction between classroom and theatre performance has had the effect of reducing far too many performances to displays of dance technique rather than displays of artistry.

 

A second factor is the dancers' knowledge that somewhere in the audience someone is likely to be recording what they are doing and may well post it and that it will then be commented upon by all and sundry which I think must have an impact on what we see in performances. The knowledge that a single section of a performance on a day determined by an unknown recorder may well end up being a #

 dancer's Aurora or Odette/Odile  for all eternity must have some sort of impact on all but the most tough minded of performers and affect their ability to engage in displays of apparent spontaneous artistry.

 

 

[alison]

On 19/07/2021 at 16:51, Jan McNulty said:

Thanks Lizbie.

 

They just look to careful for me.  I would prefer something faster with an element of excitement even if they may look untidier.

 

Having finally caught up with that part of the stream, I would say I felt they were in keeping with the rather sedate nature of much of the rest of the pdd.  I'm not sure whether I like it being that sedate, but I'll have another look and rethink.

[Fonty]

11 hours ago, alison said:

 

Having finally caught up with that part of the stream, I would say I felt they were in keeping with the rather sedate nature of much of the rest of the pdd.  I'm not sure whether I like it being that sedate, but I'll have another look and rethink.

 

Sedate is a good word for it.  I think I prefer it when Aurora is danced with the joy of a lovely young princess marrying the prince of her dreams, with emphasis on the youth.  I know I always mention Fonteyn, but she managed to convey this perfectly.  Some of the interpretations today are just a touch too regal and mature for my tastes.  

[Jan McNulty]

Ballet hadn't even entered into my consciousness when Margot Fonteyn was still dancing so I never had the pleasure of seeing her dance live.

 

I remember a documentary about finding a lost Sleeping Beauty film which showed the Rose Adagio as danced by Margot Fonteyn.

 

Even though what we saw was grainy black and white you could just tell that she was utterly magnificent and looked absolutely age appropriate for the role.  Although I've seen and loved (or not) lots of different Auroras over the years none have matched (for me) her performance in that grainy film.

[Bruce Wall]

A very interesting interview dated 06.08.21 with Suzanne Farrell might be of some interest in this regard.  Here is but one (perhaps pertinent) quote from it:

 

 "The words of a great poem are written down. They don’t change, but choreography is subjected to many variables. Our medium is humanness. The human body is constantly changing. It alters with time, emotion, humidity, with health. It has lived one day longer. You should never assume that a human body will be predictable."

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Bruce Wall

[Fonty]

On 08/08/2021 at 15:14, Jan McNulty said:

Ballet hadn't even entered into my consciousness when Margot Fonteyn was still dancing so I never had the pleasure of seeing her dance live.

 

I remember a documentary about finding a lost Sleeping Beauty film which showed the Rose Adagio as danced by Margot Fonteyn.

 

Even though what we saw was grainy black and white you could just tell that she was utterly magnificent and looked absolutely age appropriate for the role.  Although I've seen and loved (or not) lots of different Auroras over the years none have matched (for me) her performance in that grainy film.

 

I never saw her dance live either.  My experience is based entirely on film and Youtube snippets.  I don't think I have ever seen anyone match her for her ability to radiate joy.  

[Pas de Quatre]

I did see her live several times, and totally agree about her "radience". In Sleeping Beauty the thing I remember most is nkt one of the iconic moments, but the fluidity of her arms in the diagonal stepping forwards en pointe in the last Act solo - just before the sectionmwith the fish dives.

[jmhopton]

3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I did see her live several times, and totally agree about her "radience". In Sleeping Beauty the thing I remember most is nkt one of the iconic moments, but the fluidity of her arms in the diagonal stepping forwards en pointe in the last Act solo - just before the sectionmwith the fish dives.

Are we thinking of the same action, Pas de Quatre? For me the most memorable move she makes in SB is in the final pas de deux when she leans over to one side and moves her arms amazingly quickly up and down and around and then repeats it at the other side. I've looked in vain since then for an Aurora to replicate this move but no one has done. An attempt is made today but it's very truncated and half hearted by comparison.  Perhaps it was an Ashton or De Valois move that's got lost over time but it's a shame as its so fast and striking. 

[Borzoi]

9 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

I never saw her dance live either.  My experience is based entirely on film and Youtube snippets.  I don't think I have ever seen anyone match her for her ability to radiate joy.  

Would this be the video?https://youtu.be/AmbI8azLrS8

[Fonty]

8 hours ago, Borzoi said:

Would this be the video?https://youtu.be/AmbI8azLrS8

One of them, although that one misses out the balances at the end which is a pity.  Haven't watched those clips for ages, but the first thing that strikes me is the speed of the music, which I believe is the correct tempo?  The conductor doesn't hang around, she has to nail those balances spot on.

 

 

10 hours ago, jmhopton said:

For me the most memorable move she makes in SB is in the final pas de deux when she leans over to one side and moves her arms amazingly quickly up and down and around and then repeats it at the other side. I've looked in vain since then for an Aurora to replicate this move but no one has done. An attempt is made today but it's very truncated and half hearted by comparison.  Perhaps it was an Ashton or De Valois move that's got lost over time but it's a shame as its so fast and striking. 

  
I know exactly  the move you mean.  I have often thought of mentioning it myself.  What is that move called?  It is so exciting when she does it.

[jmhopton]

2 hours ago, Fonty said:

One of them, although that one misses out the balances at the end which is a pity.  Haven't watched those clips for ages, but the first thing that strikes me is the speed of the music, which I believe is the correct tempo?  The conductor doesn't hang around, she has to nail those balances spot on.

 

 

  
I know exactly  the move you mean.  I have often thought of mentioning it myself.  What is that move called?  It is so exciting when she does it.

 

Here is a clip of her performing it with David Blair. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxr5zGy5cMU

 

The move I'm talking about is 2.07/08 minutes in and is repeated later than I thought (about 2.28) and at the same side, not opposite sides. Don't know why she didn't do both sides. It would have been more symmetrical, but I saw a black and white clip of her doing it with Michael Somes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3veh2lXWxgg) and it was exactly the same. Don't know why no one does it like this now; perhaps they can't! That backbend right at the start as well; awesome! Also the incredible fish dives and the atmosphere of calm and control she exudes. There is a comment underneath from David Blair's daughter, Catherine and she thinks it was filmed about 1963. So Fonteyn would have been in her early forties yet she exudes the charm and vivacity of a young woman half this age. Would we have the RB we know today if it wasn't for trailblazers such as Fonteyn, De Valois and Ashton? We were so incredibly lucky to have all this talent to nurture the growth of British Ballet. In my opinion this performance is difficult to beat (though of course just a personal opinion) and has encouraged me to revisit my Fonteyn performances/documentaries and see how things were done at the start of British Ballet when the 'British style' of control, fast footwork, epaulement etc were more to the fore.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by jmhopton
Complete posting

[Lizbie1]

Since speed of the music has been mentioned: one of my problems with the Nunez/Muntagirov clip is that I find the tempo stretched beyond where it can comfortably sit.

[Balletfanp]

I agree. I was at the live performance and was really frustrated for them as they seemed to be struggling to slow the steps enough to fit the music. Which doesn’t allow for sparkling fast fish dives, for instance.

 

I don’t know much about it, but I always thought that a conductor conducting for dancers was supposed to keep one eye on the dancers and adjust the tempo if necessary. I had a clear view of Kessels where I was sitting and didn’t see him glance at the stage once.

[Lizbie1]

3 hours ago, Balletfanp said:

I agree. I was at the live performance and was really frustrated for them as they seemed to be struggling to slow the steps enough to fit the music. Which doesn’t allow for sparkling fast fish dives, for instance.

 

I don’t know much about it, but I always thought that a conductor conducting for dancers was supposed to keep one eye on the dancers and adjust the tempo if necessary. I had a clear view of Kessels where I was sitting and didn’t see him glance at the stage once.

 

You could be right that this was Kessels' choice, but I'm struggling to see why he'd impose that tempo. IMO it just doesn't work for the music (for starters, the violin "flourishes" sound very strange when so clearly articulated) and I don't think the other pairings had anything so slow.

[maryrosesatonapin]

If we compare any performances to Fonteyn's they are likely to be lacking.  But our current dancers bring their own gifts to the stage and I think the two we were discussing re the fish dives are amongst the best in the UK today.  Remember that this performance was part of a mixed programme, so it didn't have the emotional investment of a culmination of the whole (very long) ballet.  Marianela and Vadim chose to dance in a rather expansive, 'largo' style and I think it worked on the night I saw it.  I loved them both.

[Pas de Quatre]

It is indeed very hard to compare performers, and totally unfair as everyone is an individual and brings something different to the table.  However, having said that, the only dancer today who I think radiates joy in a similar fashion to Fonteyn is Osipova.

 

Going back to the fish dives, if you look closely they are executed in a different manner.  In the old fast version that Fonteyn is doing in jmhpton's links, the first piroutte is vertical, but towards the end of the second turn she begins to lean forward into the dive already.   In the slower version often seen today, both turns have a vertical axis, then the ballerina goes into a deep penché arabesque and the second leg lifts a little after.

[Anna C]

53 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

However, having said that, the only dancer today who I think radiates joy in a similar fashion to Fonteyn is Osipova.

 

Having been privileged to see (and weep at) Naghdi’s debut as Aurora, I would respectfully disagree.  For me, Naghdi is *the * Aurora of her generation. 

[bangorballetboy]

1 hour ago, Pas de Quatre said:

However, having said that, the only dancer today who I think radiates joy in a similar fashion to Fonteyn is Osipova.

 

 

I would respectfully disagree with that.  At the Royal alone (nevermind elsewhere) there are a number of dancers who pass this test with flying colours (I'm thinking particularly, but not exhaustively, of Kaneko and Naghdi), without any need to overact.