Is it really still potential? (Royal Ballet School 2021 intake)

[BalletBoyMum1]

We're going to sort out a zoom call for the boys to see each other 😍

[Anna C]

21 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

If you are risking everything  - money, academics, broad childhood experiences - for the end goal of getting a professional contract then that is a very poor & uninformed gamble.  From my perspective as a parent however, I do see value in the journey, in the discipline, in the etiquette, in doing what you are good at, in developing your brain in this way, and experiencing how hard work produces results (body & performance-wise). 

 

Absolutely.  I am sure my dd’s determination, self-discipline, resilience and work ethic from 15 years of ballet, recovering from a training-ending year-long injury, going back to school for A Levels, returning to one of her two Associate schemes and passing her Advanced 2 with Merit on two lessons a week all played a part in getting her into Oxbridge (the amazing brain helped too, obviously 😂).  She was asked about it at Interview and her whole ballet journey clearly made her an interesting candidate.

 

We are a lowish-income family but once her passion and talent for ballet became clear, we did send her on some residential holiday courses, summer schools and performance experiences, within our budget, of course.  Once she’d finished Brownies and swimming lessons, she decided that ballet and music were her passions so we did invest time and hard-earned money into two Associates schemes.  She was offered an audition for Year 9 but chose not to go because she wanted to stay at home for GCSEs.  

 

Yes, we invested a lot of time and energy on ballet and of course it wasn’t cheap - but it was a lot cheaper than riding lessons, a pony and a horsebox!  I think the difference between ballet and riding is that if a child shows talent and the facility for ballet, many of us automatically think they have a good chance of dancing professionally so the ballet journey becomes focused on full-time training.  We probably wouldn’t do that if they showed talent and passion for riding, and I expect we know that although horses will probably be a lifelong passion, the chances of being a professional showjumper or three-day eventer are pretty much nil.

 

Music’s the same; the number of children taking music lessons is huge, compared to those who become professionals.  But while we’re paying for music lessons or taking our dcs to riding lessons, we spend that time and money with no real expectations of a career - so why do we do it in ballet?

 

There’s a lot to be said for taking it all a term at a time, doing what we can afford, and trying to enjoy the journey, looking at the benefits that a commitment to ballet will hopefully bring our children no matter what they end up doing.  Residential courses help with independence, summer schools mean learning rep and being taught by different teachers, associates led to making wonderful friends.   EYB and LCB summer schools gave her confidence and acting skills.  Above all, all these things were fun.

 

Too much pressure and too many expectations rarely lead anywhere good, and they’re more likely to steal a child’s love of dance at best, leaving them broken at worst.   We must try to enjoy the journey, not be fixated on the destination.

[Pups_mum]

That's a really interesting point @Anna C

There is a strange level of expectation in ballet its true. It's there in other things such as sport too, but not quite to the same degree. I will never forget another mother asking me "Well what are you going to do with her now?" when my DD didn't get into RBS JAs. The inference was now that as she, at the ripe old age of 8, had "failed" at ballet I needed to find something else for her to try. My reply was "Nothing. She's the same child as she was before I opened that letter and nothing changes." (Showing my age there - no email then!!)

Even the language used is kind of disparaging. How often do we hear words like "just a hobby" and "only a recreational dancer" as though anything other than a professional career is worthless. What nonsense. As long as dance is bringing joy, to the dancer and those who watch, it is very worthwhile.

I think part of it is a relative lack of progression opportunities for dancers other than the vocational route. If you play a competitive sport there are often loads of options besides a professional  career to continue beyond childhood, even into quite old age in some sports But there's not so much in dance, particularly ballet so I think people sometimes view it as pointless.

Maybe there needs to be more development opportunities for dancers who don't aspire to a professional career? The process of selection as a potential professional starts so young, when a child can't possibly understand the implications. Really what is needed are enrichment opportunities- the chance to do more of what they love, without it being a precursor to, well, anything  - art for art's sake if you like. I wonder how much heartbreak could be avoided if there was some kind of system whereby children with more enthusiasm and talent than average could be developed and encouraged but without it being seen as a career choice. The exam boards could start by ditching the term "vocational exams" maybe?

Edited March 28, 2021 by Pups_mum

[alison]

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

 

Music’s the same; the number of children taking music lessons is huge, compared to those who become professionals.  But while we’re paying for music lessons or taking our dcs to riding lessons, we spend that time and money with no real expectations of a career - so why do we do it in ballet?

 

 

That's an excellent point, Anna.  Put like that, it does make the whole thing seem rather ridiculous.

[OnlyDance]

13 hours ago, DD Driver said:

A goal of growing up is to be able to get a job that pays your rent & food!  

Hallelujah!!

[Kate_N]

12 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

How often do we hear words like "just a hobby" and "only a recreational dancer" as though anything other than a professional career is worthless. What nonsense. As long as dance is bringing joy, to the dancer and those who watch, it is very worthwhile.

 

This is lovely @Pups_mum as an adult (perpetual student) dancer, I'm still doing almost daily classes for the love of it, the beautiful music,  the delight of trying each day to get a little bit better at some difficult stuff.

 

But people (outside of the ballet world) are surprised to hear it. It's odd - if I cycled or played tennis, or played bridge, or whatever - no-one would bat an eyelash. 

 

Children with good training in ballet and dance have something beautiful for life!

 

12 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

Maybe there needs to be more development opportunities for dancers who don't aspire to a professional career?

 

There are quite a lot of professional dance-related roles: education & outreach officers with the UK-wide network of funded dance agencies (not agents who get you work, but places like Swindon Dance or DanceXchange or Ludus); fund-raisers, stage technicians ... and so on.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Kate_N

[Pups_mum]

That wasn't quite what I was getting at @Kate_N, maybe I didn't express myself very well. I don't mean opportunities for other dance related work, more like additional opportunities for high quality training and performance outsids of the vocational system. 

 

One of my sons plays hockey at county level currently. Technically he is very good but he lacks the physical attributes he needs to follow the pathway designed to develop professional/international standard players. A couple of years ago he was invited to trials for that type of thing but didnt quite make it and the feedback (yes, we got some!) indicated that it was predominantly a physique issue. Hurray! Honesty! We know where we stand. But its not an issue. He still plays for the county, can still go on courses where he us coached by the best of the best - nobody scrutinises his photo first before deciding whether he is worthy of that opportunity. He might not be going to progress up the England Hockey pathway but it the opportunities are not just linear, they spread out too - there will be great opportunities at University, thriving adult  and even veteran leagues all over the country and so on. He will be able to continue to play at potentially a pretty high standard for as long as he wants. The vast majority of players are not aiming to win Olympic medals or play in the professional leagues but there are still loads of other options that are not seen as "failure."

 

But dance just doesn't seem to be like that. I know it isn't impossible to access high level teaching with a less "suitable" physique because I've been through that with my DD. But it's hard, and a lot of doors shut because of it. There doesn't seem to be an easily accessible route for able and enthusiastic young dancers to develop beyond their local dance school if they don't have the physique for a professional career. Yes, there's some, like EYB for instance, but even things like that get less from age 18. Again I know there are some adult companies but relatively few, and if you don't go to University and/or live outside a big city they are scarce. The whole system seems to be focused on identifying those who might go on to be professional rather than developing the art more widely. I know so many lovely dancers who have just stopped at 18. Such a shame. And I wonder how many children and families get sucked into the vocational system and potentially difficult experiences when they just started out wanting something extra for a child with talent and a love for dance, but the system inexorably pulls tgem along?

 

Sorry, I've rambled and I'm still not sure that I've explained properly what I mean. But there's just a different "feel" about ballet somehow, and a different perception. It occurred to me as I was typing this that nobody has ever said to me "Why do you bother with all this hockey stuff? He's never going to earn his living at it is he?" But I heard that about my DD and dancing so many times. Other parents don't quiz me about my son's career intentions when he plays well and his team wins, but I was asked that incessantly about DD. Why does ballet have to be leading somewhere when sport can just "be"? 

[Kate_N]

9 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

Why does ballet have to be leading somewhere when sport can just "be"? 

Oh I see, yes, that is difficult @Pups_mum And I agree, it is a puzzle I've wondered about as well.

 

I suppose because ballet isn't like sport, where - although the spectators are important - the main point is playing a game, and winning it! Ultimately, ballet is a performance art and needs an audience. 

 

But yes, it's really hard to keep up top-level training outside large cities. I've found that myself, and just have to live with losing certain skills or experience with kinds of steps etc. But I never had full-time training to an extremely high level - just adequate at Advanced syllabus level. And there's a limit to how many studios will let a middle-aged woman dance with 15 or 16 year olds! 

 

[Horsellian]

32 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

But yes, it's really hard to keep up top-level training outside large cities. I've found that myself, and just have to live with losing certain skills or experience with kinds of steps etc. But I never had full-time training to an extremely high level - just adequate at Advanced syllabus level. And there's a limit to how many studios will let a middle-aged woman dance with 15 or 16 year olds! 

 

 

I guess our (fairly small) studio must be unusual in that respect, which I don't think I really realised.  We have a lot of adult classes: one beginners, three non-beginners mixed ability, an advanced adult class, PBT, pointe work, and floor barre.  There are also over 18s in most of the vocational grades.

 

When we have a show, the cast ranges in age from 3 to 70+!

[Anna C]

2 hours ago, Horsellian said:

 

I guess our (fairly small) studio must be unusual in that respect, which I don't think I really realised.  We have a lot of adult classes: one beginners, three non-beginners mixed ability, an advanced adult class, PBT, pointe work, and floor barre.  There are also over 18s in most of the vocational grades.

 

When we have a show, the cast ranges in age from 3 to 70+!

 

That’s great, Horsellian.  I feel exactly as Pups_mum does; my daughter loved her RAD Advanced 2 and Advanced non-syllabus classes at Battersea HQ but once she had passed her Adv 2, what was missing were things like EYB, LCB summer schools ending in a performance, and so on.  Even the wonderful ENB repertoire workshops for teenagers, which attracted advanced dancers, stop at 18 and then switch to “Adult General” workshops - which are aimed at less advanced adult dancers, with “beginner plus” or “some ballet experience”, with the repertoire adjusted accordingly.

 

There are amateur orchestras, amateur sports leagues at all levels and oodles of adult choirs, many of a very high standard for those who have taken music to an advanced level, but in comparison there are next to no performance experiences after uni (that I know of) for ballet dancers who have taken their exams as far as they can go but for whatever reason, can’t or don’t want to make a living in dance or theatre.  

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

I suppose because ballet isn't like sport, where - although the spectators are important - the main point is playing a game, and winning it! Ultimately, ballet is a performance art and needs an audience. 

 

That's just it though, isn't it? There are many opportunities for adult amateur musicians, singers and actors to continue to learn, rehearse and perform with others. Orchestras, bands, choirs, amdram groups, all sorts. Ballroom dance enthusiasts have many clubs and dance schools who teach large numbers of adults. You can participate in most sports as an adult.

 

But adult ballet dancers? Very few dance schools have classes for adults, and those that do will probably have one class a week for all abilities. Unless you happen to live near a big city or have the time and money to travel, there's nothing.

[taxi4ballet]

Great minds think alike Anna!!

[Anna C]

Just now, taxi4ballet said:

That's just it though, isn't it? There are many opportunities for adult amateur musicians, singers and actors to continue to learn, rehearse and perform with others. Orchestras, bands, choirs, amdram groups, all sorts. Ballroom dance enthusiasts have many clubs and dance schools who teach large numbers of adults. You can participate in most sports as an adult.

 

But adult ballet dancers? Very few dance schools have classes for adults, and those that do will probably have one class a week for all abilities. Unless you happen to live near a big city or have the time and money to travel, there's nothing.

 

Typing at the same time, Taxi. ☺️

[shygirlsmum]

I have just seen that Ballet International have posted a clip of their adult rep class on Instagram, hopefully some uk ballet teachers will take inspiration and start performance opportunities for over 18’s as from this thread it sounds like there is a gap in the market.

[Bluebird22]

I may be mistaken but I’m sure there was no upper age limit on the BRB Swan Lake Dreams. I used to teach a lady who would frequently express frustration at the lack of opportunities available for the dancer who had never stopped but equally never danced professionally. 

The discovering rep from the RAD is a step in the right direction I suppose.

[Anna C]

49 minutes ago, Bluebird22 said:

I may be mistaken but I’m sure there was no upper age limit on the BRB Swan Lake Dreams. I used to teach a lady who would frequently express frustration at the lack of opportunities available for the dancer who had never stopped but equally never danced professionally. 

The discovering rep from the RAD is a step in the right direction I suppose.

 

Yes, that’s true, if it’s available in your town.

[PetitJeté]

I haven’t read all the replies, but I’ve been thinking exactly the same @Momapalooza  My dd is a JA, and got to the WL finals this year, but it was a no. I feel now that perhaps I was naive in thinking they only look for potential (although this was what her JA teacher told me!), and have thought exactly what you said about the ones who got in looking ‘polished’ (although this is based only on the social media posts, as you say!). Although I appreciate that there may be others who don’t do social media, and may not be like this. My dd has only even done one show, and has never done a competition, so she won’t have the confidence in performance of others who are more experienced in this regard. I was a dancer myself, albeit only for a short while, but it feels like the whole thing is tougher these days! 

[Harwel]

35 minutes ago, PetitJeté said:

I was a dancer myself, albeit only for a short while, but it feels like the whole thing is tougher these days! 

There is almost no comparison.  I was training 35 years ago and it’s a different world now.  The standard is phenomenal. 

[BisforBallet]

2 hours ago, Harwel said:

There is almost no comparison.  I was training 35 years ago and it’s a different world now.  The standard is phenomenal. 

Totally agree here. My daughter is learning steps now that I wasn’t even aware of at her age and there was never the same push for flexibility! 

[BalletBliss]

2 hours ago, PetitJeté said:

I haven’t read all the replies, but I’ve been thinking exactly the same @Momapalooza  My dd is a JA, and got to the WL finals this year, but it was a no. I feel now that perhaps I was naive in thinking they only look for potential (although this was what her JA teacher told me!), and have thought exactly what you said about the ones who got in looking ‘polished’ (although this is based only on the social media posts, as you say!). Although I appreciate that there may be others who don’t do social media, and may not be like this. My dd has only even done one show, and has never done a competition, so she won’t have the confidence in performance of others who are more experienced in this regard. I was a dancer myself, albeit only for a short while, but it feels like the whole thing is tougher these days! 

Same here.  We are one of this year's WL finals 'no's.  Although never a JA, I felt my dd would still stand a chance, based on potential and being considered one of the best in her ballet class of pre-selected girls.  (Although all of it basically ended last March, when the school closed and hasn't reopened to children's classes.  They tried their best by still keeping at it by giving a couple of weekly classes via zoom until summer holidays, but then closed completely.)  We are not part of a social world.  Through all these lockdowns and schools' struggles, I assumed the situation was the same for all ballet students.  Especially as all we hear is how different this year is in terms of fallen (!!!) standards.  Those like me, who don't use social media and just get all their info from BBC or local radio, just took it at face value.  When then, at the end of November, I learnt of WL and their auditions, I actually exclaimed to my dd, what a fantastic opportunity it is, now of all years (!) to try to audition for such a demanding institution.  What, with all the 'lowered' standards, dd would surely have a fair chance, as everyone else would have suffered lack of practice as much as she has!  How pathetically naive :)!  So all of December she practised herself alone in her bedroom, trying to remember all the routines they did in class and trying to work out, what exactly the auditioning list of exercises involved, as she learnt it somewhat differently.  I told her not to worry and just do whatever she knew how to, and that the auditioning panel would surely take it into account that all entrants are underpractised and are understandably below expected standard...  I then filmed her at home on the last day before the deadline and, miraculously, she got through to the finals.  This reinforced my believe that this year must indeed be different in 'lowered standards' sense (I didn't realise of this forum's existence yet or had any contacts with the ballet community to be guided in any way), and dd just continued on whatever she could do to herself, going over routines she still remembered.  Then a few zoom ballet classes were added to her already busy academic/extra-curricular schedule, when by chance we found one of her former teachers doing it online to groups of 8-10 girls, but that was that. 

 

Now, from finding this forum and this thread in particular, I do begin to learn of a completely different world out there that I had no idea about.  It is so very interesting and enlightening!  Were I aware of all the issues highlighted in this thread, I would probably never had entered WL auditions at all, realising that dd would probably never stand a chance in the first place in light of such high quality, intense training happening backstage that we had not only no access to, but not a clue about.  But then again, were we to have a glimpse of it all beforehand, it would totally paralise us to even try as, being a low-income family, we could never afford such training anyhow.  Whatever it is worth for, it must have been for a good reason that we were so totally blind and super naive at the time, and went for it with open minds and brave hearts.  It gave dd a great experience of auditioning, of the historic WL - an absolutely gorgeous place, breathtaking nature of the Richmond Park, flocks of stunning deer.  Ignorance is indeed bliss!                     

[glowlight]

@BalletBliss - don't take this lightly when I say that it was a HUGE achievement for your DD to get a place in the finals.  There are hundreds of wonderful dancers who audition and don't get that far.

 

Please encourage her to keep going (if that is what she wants).  You will see from other threads that there are many other opportunities out there.

[Anna C]

34 minutes ago, glowlight said:

@BalletBliss - don't take this lightly when I say that it was a HUGE achievement for your DD to get a place in the finals.  There are hundreds of wonderful dancers who audition and don't get that far.

 

Please encourage her to keep going (if that is what she wants).  You will see from other threads that there are many other opportunities out there.

 

My goodness, I absolutely agree.  @BalletBliss any child who gets to WL finals clearly has so much potential.  Remember how few places there are compared to how many talented dancers there are.  I’m with glowlight, if your dd wants to aim for full-time training in future, your family should be eligible for means-tested assistance.  Having got to WL finals, it would be well worth her trying again, and not just at WL.

[Momapalooza]

9 hours ago, BalletBliss said:

Same here.  We are one of this year's WL finals 'no's.  Although never a JA, I felt my dd would still stand a chance, based on potential and being considered one of the best in her ballet class of pre-selected girls.  (Although all of it basically ended last March, when the school closed and hasn't reopened to children's classes.  They tried their best by still keeping at it by giving a couple of weekly classes via zoom until summer holidays, but then closed completely.)  We are not part of a social world.  Through all these lockdowns and schools' struggles, I assumed the situation was the same for all ballet students.  Especially as all we hear is how different this year is in terms of fallen (!!!) standards.  Those like me, who don't use social media and just get all their info from BBC or local radio, just took it at face value.  When then, at the end of November, I learnt of WL and their auditions, I actually exclaimed to my dd, what a fantastic opportunity it is, now of all years (!) to try to audition for such a demanding institution.  What, with all the 'lowered' standards, dd would surely have a fair chance, as everyone else would have suffered lack of practice as much as she has!  How pathetically naive :)!  So all of December she practised herself alone in her bedroom, trying to remember all the routines they did in class and trying to work out, what exactly the auditioning list of exercises involved, as she learnt it somewhat differently.  I told her not to worry and just do whatever she knew how to, and that the auditioning panel would surely take it into account that all entrants are underpractised and are understandably below expected standard...  I then filmed her at home on the last day before the deadline and, miraculously, she got through to the finals.  This reinforced my believe that this year must indeed be different in 'lowered standards' sense (I didn't realise of this forum's existence yet or had any contacts with the ballet community to be guided in any way), and dd just continued on whatever she could do to herself, going over routines she still remembered.  Then a few zoom ballet classes were added to her already busy academic/extra-curricular schedule, when by chance we found one of her former teachers doing it online to groups of 8-10 girls, but that was that. 

 

Now, from finding this forum and this thread in particular, I do begin to learn of a completely different world out there that I had no idea about.  It is so very interesting and enlightening!  Were I aware of all the issues highlighted in this thread, I would probably never had entered WL auditions at all, realising that dd would probably never stand a chance in the first place in light of such high quality, intense training happening backstage that we had not only no access to, but not a clue about.  But then again, were we to have a glimpse of it all beforehand, it would totally paralise us to even try as, being a low-income family, we could never afford such training anyhow.  Whatever it is worth for, it must have been for a good reason that we were so totally blind and super naive at the time, and went for it with open minds and brave hearts.  It gave dd a great experience of auditioning, of the historic WL - an absolutely gorgeous place, breathtaking nature of the Richmond Park, flocks of stunning deer.  Ignorance is indeed bliss!                     

 I am so pleased you went for it, and yes, ignorance can be bliss.  I personally wish I haven't been on social media the last few years.  At the same time, it's also good that you have now seen and experienced what you have this year.  Although the last year has been very different, I still think the trend will continue and auditions will be more frantic and frenzied in the coming years.  There are definitely kids out there who have been training for at least the last 2 or so years solely with the goal of gaining a place in vocational school in mind.

 

Your DD has done amazingly well, especially if she is not a JA.  There are very few non-JAs who get a place in WL at Year 7 certainly in the last few years.  I suspect those who are not are either from overseas or have had very high quality pre-vocational training prior to starting Year 7 and are most likely associates for other programmes/schools.  Happy to be corrected here.  It does make sense for their incoming groups to be predominantly JA though as I assume the programme was started to feed into their full time school.

 

There are certainly still schools out there, I know of some overseas, whose auditions I think are carefully designed to look more at physical suitability and potential for entry at Year 6/7.  Apart from basic exercises to check for musicality, the audition is more a check of whether or not the child would fit into their kind of training.  These schools appear to me, my personal opinion, looking more for blank slates with the right ingredients to mold into their specific kind of training.  I quite like this idea, because a child of 10/11 still has so much growing and changing to do.  This also places less emphasis on prior training or performance experience.  Somehow, it feels more like an even playing field. No need for intensive training before auditions, no need for fancy photographs, etc.  Ironically, I think these are also the same schools where a high percentage of students who enter in the lower years go on to the higher years, on to their junior companies and finally their companies.

 

 

[Momapalooza]

14 hours ago, PetitJeté said:

I haven’t read all the replies, but I’ve been thinking exactly the same @Momapalooza  My dd is a JA, and got to the WL finals this year, but it was a no. I feel now that perhaps I was naive in thinking they only look for potential (although this was what her JA teacher told me!), and have thought exactly what you said about the ones who got in looking ‘polished’ (although this is based only on the social media posts, as you say!). Although I appreciate that there may be others who don’t do social media, and may not be like this. My dd has only even done one show, and has never done a competition, so she won’t have the confidence in performance of others who are more experienced in this regard. I was a dancer myself, albeit only for a short while, but it feels like the whole thing is tougher these days! 

I personally feel this as well, how it's so much tougher these days.  I am just thinking 6 or so years ago and I don't think it was anywhere near like this.  I have been wondering why, I think a big part of it is obviously social media and everything is just so much more visible and the world so much smaller.  But it almost feels like ballet in general seems to have exploded in popularity and has become more "mainstream".  With this comes what feels like a more and more intense and frenzied audition preparation to get into full time training, almost the younger the better. I expect the volume of applications into lower schools have steadily grown larger and larger certainly in the last 3 years or so.

[Anna C]

39 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

These schools appear to me, my personal opinion, looking more for blank slates with the right ingredients to mold into their specific kind of training.  I quite like this idea, because a child of 10/11 still has so much growing and changing to do.  This also places less emphasis on prior training or performance experience.  Somehow, it feels more like an even playing field. No need for intensive training before auditions, no need for fancy photographs, etc.  Ironically, I think these are also the same schools where a high percentage of students who enter in the lower years go on to the higher years, on to their junior companies and finally their companies.

 

Which schools in particular are you thinking of, @Momapalooza?  Are they the overseas equivalent of the Royal Ballet School?  I’m just wondering because I recall a thread a few years ago about Paris Opera Ballet school and in terms of physical attributes, they seemed even more strict than White Lodge.  If you are below or above certain height and weight range, there’s no point in even applying to POB.

 

You talk about WL not being an “even playing field” but you could say the same about any elite, world-class institution, from Oxbridge to Manchester United Junior Academy, whatever.  Of course WL JAs have a good chance of getting a year 7 place; they’ve probably taken class at WL once or twice, they have the reassurance safety in numbers, wearing their JA uniform, and if necessary, the panel can get more detailed feedback about how they usually dance.   But this would be the same for Elmhurst Young Dancers, Tring CBA dancers, Hammond Associates and so on, just as it is later on for Central Pre-Seniors applying for Central.  It still doesn’t guarantee a place though!  And the tough fact is that a career as a ballet dancer, just like all those other elite sports and academic institutions, isn’t “an even playing field”.  But then, neither is life. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Even if you get a Year 7 place at WL, the chances of making it into RB Upper School, surviving all three years there, and getting into the company, are *miniscule*.  Just as they are in Paris, Moscow and so on.

 

To be honest with you, if your child has the physique, potential (no school wants the “finished article” at 11), talent and desire to get finals at auditions, doing one good Associate Scheme as well as say, two classes a week *good quality* local training is not excessive in terms of time or money - and I say that as a low-mid income family; it’s the same as you’d be doing in football or if your child had aspirations to be a chorister or musician.  And even if they’re not successful or don’t want to train full time, it’s still all great experience, a wonderful decompression from academics, gives fitness, self discipline, uses the brain, and above all, you know where your child is on a Saturday! 

[Mum of unicorn dancer]

I do not know if anyone noticed, but the most of girls who got WL yes this year were seasoned performance professionals having a history of either performance with the professional ballet company or on/near on West End or in top dance competitions.This is a massive part to achieve success in WL audition - being able to perform. Having a track record to be a safe pair of hands/feet in past.   I think it was one of the most dicisive factor between candidates this year. Yes, you have to have a right physique, amazing facility and musicality, but without performance these will not stand out. Please correct me if I am wrong about this, but none of the extra classes could give you this special magic. 

 

[PetitJeté]

It’s really interesting to hear everyone’s views on this. On the social media side, I’m sure others may have a different opinion, but personally the thought of putting my dd out there in pics wearing a leotard in front of hundreds if not thousands of followers does not sit right with me at all. I also notice with some of these girls on there that it’s all still images, no videos, and I think a false impression can be created with a photo. I think ultimately my dd not being chosen was the right thing, and I was not particularly happy at the idea of sending her off boarding at 11 in any case. But all this has made me think if the dance world is a place I want to encourage her to pursue anyway. I think for now we’ll focus on her just getting enjoyment out of it, and see where the next few years take us. 

[TwoDancers]

1 hour ago, Mum of unicorn dancer said:

I do not know if anyone noticed, but the most of girls who got WL yes this year were seasoned performance professionals having a history of either performance with the professional ballet company or on/near on West End or in top dance competitions.This is a massive part to achieve success in WL audition - being able to perform. Having a track record to be a safe pair of hands/feet in past.   I think it was one of the most dicisive factor between candidates this year. Yes, you have to have a right physique, amazing facility and musicality, but without performance these will not stand out. Please correct me if I am wrong about this, but none of the extra classes could give you this special magic. 

 

How do you know this???? 

[Sally-Anne]

1 hour ago, PetitJeté said:

It’s really interesting to hear everyone’s views on this. On the social media side, I’m sure others may have a different opinion, but personally the thought of putting my dd out there in pics wearing a leotard in front of hundreds if not thousands of followers does not sit right with me at all. I also notice with some of these girls on there that it’s all still images, no videos, and I think a false impression can be created with a photo. I think ultimately my dd not being chosen was the right thing, and I was not particularly happy at the idea of sending her off boarding at 11 in any case. But all this has made me think if the dance world is a place I want to encourage her to pursue anyway. I think for now we’ll focus on her just getting enjoyment out of it, and see where the next few years take us. 

I’m with you on the social media side - it seems to me that there is a privacy/consent issue with posting pictures and information of such young children on a public forum. Privately for family and friends I understand.
 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Sally-Anne

[Anna C]

Can we be careful to remember the rules around discussing vocational schools and children who are not our own (or our pupils), please.  There’s beginning to be quite a bit of hearsay and speculation on this thread and we don’t want to have to lock it.

 

Here are the guidelines about vocational school threads:  https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/18707-from-the-moderators-forum-policy-for-discussion-of-all-vocational-schools/

 

 

Many thanks. 

 

Anna C on behalf of Balletcoforum Moderators

[Dancing Kitty]

1 hour ago, TwoDancers said:

How do you know this???? 

 Social media: teachers and pupils are all posting results.  

[BalletBoyMumma]

I wouldn’t read to much into those picked for performances tbh. While an amazing opportunity and lots of fun it is much more about fitting into existing costumes and location/availability of the child and parent. My son was picked after his very first JA lesson so definitely not based on ability (we joked that it was probably his wild-child look that matched the look they needed for the character 😂). Most roles are non-ballet/dancing roles and if they are it’s a tiny part. Often it’s just seated to fit in with the stage scenery/environment, a stage ‘prop’ so to speak, or to walk across the stage carrying something. If lucky, some mime or skips. It’s great fun and the whole experience is exciting but the actual being on stage bit is very minimal. 
While not as grand a stage as somewhere like the ROH, a child would get far more performance confidence/experience from local school’s end of year shows or festival performances etc. If your DC doesn’t get to do this already, definitely seek something out - it’s the best!

[TwoDancers]

1 hour ago, Dancing Kitty said:

 Social media: teachers and pupils are all posting results.  

You are making very big assumptions and speculating and generalising un-necessarily here - I can’t even begin to work out how you can say that all those children are “seasoned performance professionals” - honestly?  And so what if they are?

I am beyond baffled.  
How about we simply say well done to the children and wish them good luck at whatever school they may be attending, vocational or otherwise.  That old mantra - be kind.