Is it really still potential? (Royal Ballet School 2021 intake)

[No Clue Dance Mum]

3 minutes ago, Bunny said:

I think to suggest that an hour of ballet a week with a good teacher is enough for children with potential is wonderful in theory, but in reality parents cannot think this, or they surely wouldn’t be accessing private one to one coaching and additional classes and schemes? What would be the point if they thought there was no benefit? I can absolutely see the benefit, and only regret that financial circumstances and my own lack of research and foresight means that I didn’t/couldn’t consider these options for my DS. Still, you live and learn! Every child who has a place at WL is exceptionally talented and I’m sure their place is very well deserved. My DS will sit patiently on the waitlist and hope for the best with fingers tightly crossed! x

Yep same with us. Good luck to your DS

[Jan McNulty]

2 minutes ago, No Clue Dance Mum said:

Yep same with us. Good luck to your DS

 

Hello No Clue Dance Mum and welcome to the Forum!

[TwoDancers]

I do think it’s important to remember that this last year has been really different aswell. Dance schools offered varying levels of classes through zoom during the Lockdowns (some had a super limited timetable, or offered nothing, some offered a full timetable etc), so naturally people may have looked elsewhere ... and there was lots available! Anyone with access to social media could find free ballet classes or teachers offering new online classes for all age ranges.

And it’s also important to consider that just because multiple schools are posting the success of these children, doesn’t necessarily mean the children are “still” doing classes with them .... maybe it’s an opportunity for that teacher/dance school to celebrate that they’ve had some part in that child’s training at some point over the last couple of years or so??

Maybe this is naive of me, but I am super wary of social media!!

 

[Momapalooza]

6 minutes ago, TwoDancers said:

I do think it’s important to remember that this last year has been really different aswell. Dance schools offered varying levels of classes through zoom during the Lockdowns (some had a super limited timetable, or offered nothing, some offered a full timetable etc), so naturally people may have looked elsewhere ... and there was lots available! Anyone with access to social media could find free ballet classes or teachers offering new online classes for all age ranges.

And it’s also important to consider that just because multiple schools are posting the success of these children, doesn’t necessarily mean the children are “still” doing classes with them .... maybe it’s an opportunity for that teacher/dance school to celebrate that they’ve had some part in that child’s training at some point over the last couple of years or so??

Maybe this is naive of me, but I am super wary of social media!!

 

This may well be the case and you’re right there was and still is a wealth of free ballet classes through social media. However I do think there is a difference between “follow along” classes and actual classes and I think the reference on this thread is more about actual classes where teachers can feedback to students. 
 

And of course it’s also true that perhaps some were posts from previous schools or teachers celebrating past students’ successes as this does happen often too but I believe this thread is more to do with those who appeared to have been training quite at a very high level and frequency (for example, those who have been posted multiple times a week doing various classes with several different teachers whether ballet, stretch etc).  Don’t get me wrong, I believe if we could do this we would as well! Especially leading up to auditions. Why not try to maximise and complement existing potential leading up to auditions. It does make sense.  The sad reality is that not everyone can do this, especially not a sustained level over a few months. And one of the the purposes of this  discussion is whether people think this alters the playing field or not. It is hard reality that depending on family situation, not everyone can access the same training. 
 

Social media I think just highlights this disparity. Only time will tell whether this trend will continue and whether child A who has potential but very minimal training (and can only do exercises at home as there is no available or affordable training classes) is actually on a level playing field with child B who has potential but also able to take lots of quality ballet classes and associates with multiple teachers/schools, complemented with other training such as conditioning, strengthening (in a formal class setting with a teacher).

[rowan]

45 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

Precisely this. But for families who will have to make extra sacrifices to help their DC achieve their dream, perhaps more than others, it is good to go into this with open eyes. To go blindly is to assume that because your DC has been told to have heaps of potential and works really hard with what DCs got that’s it’s a level playing field. What if the family situation dictates that you cannot easily access quality training? That the nearest school is a small one that only does syllabus and exams every so often? that the nearest associate centre is miles away and the family cannot afford to send DC weekly. Parents have no dance background therefore cannot guide accordingly. The teacher isn’t really used to preparing students for auditions. 

Much of this is true in all aspects in life, though. No one can be provided equal access to every “hobby that some might make a job out of later”.
 

However, in relation to ballet, providing access to good training to those who would never have thought about dance, or been able to afford it, is the purpose of outreach schemes. Mine started dancing through such a scheme. The lessons were free. There were no exams at all. Leotards and shoes were provided. The audition fees for JAs, MAs, vocational school were also paid for for those put forward. However, it is still true that hardly any children on such schemes, like children studying dance anywhere, will go to vocational school or become dancers. 

 

[Motomum]

1 hour ago, Peony said:

Perhaps the standards required now mean that it’s just not possible to take kids at year 7 stage if they aren’t at a high enough level. Perhaps to level the playing field the schools need to look at taking children at 10 like the Russian schools do. Or maybe increase the amount provided through their associates, which may be more easily achieved with some zoom classes. Some of the children starting year 7 will be 12 or near enough which I suppose is fairly late in terms of starting training?

You raise a really good point indeed.

My son is in Russian based vocational training here in the UK, and at 12 is still at pre-vocational level, but the training is intense. Their focus is very different indeed. Starting young is everything.

Interestingly all the Y6 children who auditioned for WL from one particular Russian school were successful in getting a place.

[The red shoes]

Could it just be possible that standards are indeed getting higher ... ? RBS specifically advertises themselves as a school of excellence and they have to keep that reputation. Not saying this is right or wrong but if “ the more polished child” is being accepted.. we need to ask ourselves why? 
 

A long time ago , if you were a boy with the right proportions and equipment then you were half way in the door.. not anymore I’m afraid!!! The standard of boys has increased dramatically in the last decade and keeps increasing so IMO .., no it’s not potential alone anymore .

[BalletBoysDad]

9 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Could it just be possible that standards are indeed getting higher ... ? RBS specifically advertises themselves as a school of excellence and they have to keep that reputation. Not saying this is right or wrong but if “ the more polished child” is being accepted.. we need to ask ourselves why? 
 

A long time ago , if you were a boy with the right proportions and equipment then you were half way in the door.. not anymore I’m afraid!!! The standard of boys has increased dramatically in the last decade and keeps increasing so IMO .., no it’s not potential alone anymore .

I totally agree with this. Potential is a very elastic word. The goalposts of the word ‘potential’ have almost definitely shifted. The RBS are presumably going to take successful WL applicants on an incredible and demanding educational journey. Like you say, in the past, body type and facility might be enough to show potential. (I personally had this conversation with a famous choreographer who joined WL at 16 with no previous classical ballet experience, and went on to become a principal, then artistic director of a major company). That would be almost unheard of now! He said that himself. Now you’ll see young boys with ‘body potential/facility’ AND some very solid skills that demonstrate additional potential. You’ll see that in a Y5 class, and these boys will be trying for vocational places at the end of this year. There will always be that boy with limited experience who shines, but there will equally be many boys who’s ‘potential’ is already highly polished. 

[Pas de Quatre]

A long time ago RBS used to say they preferred someone with no training but who had the right physique, to someone with poor training as it is so hard to eliminate faults. That no training certainly wouldn't apply now. But it is still a case of do RBS think the candidate is suitable for their training, not measuring what they have learnt already. 

[Harwel]

I have just been drawn down the rabbit hole of this thread - I rarely visit here anymore since my DS left the ballet world (I thank God everyday for that day!).  I feel the anxiety of the new parents just entering this world who want to try to explain everything, find a reason for everything, justify everything.  I think you are just finding out that NOTHING about the ballet world has anything to do about a level playing field (I genuinely don’t think anything in this world does).

 

 I strongly suggest you read some of the threads about the beautiful dancers who have gone through vocational school systems and come out utterly broken.  There are some on here, there are some 

on Instagram there are some on YouTube.  I truly wish all the beautiful young hopeful dancers get what they want and live a life of roses and sunshine - unfortunately this will not happen.  Many who have just got into vocational school will never make it to senior school and even fewer will make it a career. Some who were unsuccessful at gaining a place this year will actually do better by being nurtured at home and may find success later.  
 

What is this training for?  To get a job in a ballet company? Honestly, save your energy, stop comparing, stop blaming uneven playing fields, north south divides (never heard anything so nutty - can’t think a company AD gives a flying monkeys where someone is from given all the international hires).  Focus on your child’s needs, make them mentally strong, teach them to understand their worth in this world away from ballet.  If a ballet career is for them it will happen. if not, be grateful they will be super successful elsewhere. 
 

The standards are incredibly high, and increasing every year. No one gets a place if they are not incredibly gifted physically.  The training is intense and only a tiny minority can take it (a tiny % of those accepted at year 7) classical dancers are elite athletes that are born for the role.  
 

There is no level of training given by any 3rd party that will confer enough talent, dedication, physical attributes to a child that has not been born with those attributes.  If a child with those attributes does not get the level of training to bring it out then unfortunately a dance career is not their destiny. However, that training does not have to happen to gain a year 7 place. 
 

Enjoy your child’s successes, help them recognise the talent and dedication of others.  It seems to me the biggest challenge to our younger generation is mental health - make them mentally strong to face life in general.  Ballet will be a footnote in most of our children’s lives. 

[Momapalooza]

7 minutes ago, Harwel said:

I have just been drawn down the rabbit hole of this thread - I rarely visit here anymore since my DS left the ballet world (I thank God everyday for that day!).  I feel the anxiety of the new parents just entering this world who want to try to explain everything, find a reason for everything, justify everything.  I think you are just finding out that NOTHING about the ballet world has anything to do about a level playing field (I genuinely don’t think anything in this world does).

 

 I strongly suggest you read some of the threads about the beautiful dancers who have gone through vocational school systems and come out utterly broken.  There are some on here, there are some 

on Instagram there are some on YouTube.  I truly wish all the beautiful young hopeful dancers get what they want and live a life of roses and sunshine - unfortunately this will not happen.  Many who have just got into vocational school will never make it to senior school and even fewer will make it a career. Some who were unsuccessful at gaining a place this year will actually do better by being nurtured at home and may find success later.  
 

What is this training for?  To get a job in a ballet company? Honestly, save your energy, stop comparing, stop blaming uneven playing fields, north south divides (never heard anything so nutty - can’t think a company AD gives a flying monkeys where someone is from given all the international hires).  Focus on your child’s needs, make them mentally strong, teach them to understand their worth in this world away from ballet.  If a ballet career is for them it will happen. if not, be grateful they will be super successful elsewhere. 
 

The standards are incredibly high, and increasing every year. No one gets a place if they are not incredibly gifted physically.  The training is intense and only a tiny minority can take it (a tiny % of those accepted at year 7) classical dancers are elite athletes that are born for the role.  
 

There is no level of training given by any 3rd party that will confer enough talent, dedication, physical attributes to a child that has not been born with those attributes.  If a child with those attributes does not get the level of training to bring it out then unfortunately a dance career is not their destiny. However, that training does not have to happen to gain a year 7 place. 
 

Enjoy your child’s successes, help them recognise the talent and dedication of others.  It seems to me the biggest challenge to our younger generation is mental health - make them mentally strong to face life in general.  Ballet will be a footnote in most of our children’s lives. 

Thank you @Harwel I was actually just reading through a couple of other threads on this forum and combined with what stood out for me the most in your post (the last sentence), it really has helped me get a good dose of reality. After hearing and reading about other people’s experiences too, I do think I know how to manage DCs expectations and hope that DC sees the reality too - hopefully before the “should I or should I not audition” decision.  I have my personal thoughts and preference on this (I like a quiet and easy life) but I am going to go with what DC wants.  

[Fudge]

13 minutes ago, Harwel said:

I have just been drawn down the rabbit hole of this thread - I rarely visit here anymore since my DS left the ballet world (I thank God everyday for that day!).  I feel the anxiety of the new parents just entering this world who want to try to explain everything, find a reason for everything, justify everything.  I think you are just finding out that NOTHING about the ballet world has anything to do about a level playing field (I genuinely don’t think anything in this world does).

My Dd stepped off this mad rollercoaster at the end of Year 11 she had places at 3 Upper Schools. It is not a level playing field at all...... I do wish my Dd had stayed at home until 16 in a nurturing environment.  For those of you starting the vocational school journey be honest about how it is going and keep talking.  We sat down each summer and discussed if this was what Dd still wanted.  It is very easy to get caught up in it all, and not want to get left behind. Many of Dd's peers were doing multiple Summer Schools... Easter Courses ... private lessons.... extra associate classes on top of vocational school to try and get noticed - it doesn't come cheap.

[TwoDancers]

8 minutes ago, Fudge said:

My Dd stepped off this mad rollercoaster at the end of Year 11 she had places at 3 Upper Schools. It is not a level playing field at all...... I do wish my Dd had stayed at home until 16 in a nurturing environment.  For those of you starting the vocational school journey be honest about how it is going and keep talking.  We sat down each summer and discussed if this was what Dd still wanted.  It is very easy to get caught up in it all, and not want to get left behind. Many of Dd's peers were doing multiple Summer Schools... Easter Courses ... private lessons.... extra associate classes on top of vocational school to try and get noticed - it doesn't come cheap.

Absolutely this!  Being honest with your children, talking openly about options regularly and ensuring your child knows that they can jump off the train if it’s not for them , has to be the way to do this!

[rowan]

I agree with everything @Harwel says. Regard ballet as a hobby. Anything else, madness lies. I’d almost say to not wish it upon your child. There can be so much damage done.

 
Regarding potential, as I’ve said before on here, I never stopped wondering if mine had any potential until the job offers came in. (Did not go to vocational school at all, was turned down for everything RBS, never had any private lessons or did a competition or any prestigious summer schools.) We regarded it as a serious hobby in her teen years, and I certainly expected nothing to come of it when she went off auditioning for jobs. 

[Momapalooza]

18 minutes ago, Fudge said:

My Dd stepped off this mad rollercoaster at the end of Year 11 she had places at 3 Upper Schools. It is not a level playing field at all...... I do wish my Dd had stayed at home until 16 in a nurturing environment.  For those of you starting the vocational school journey be honest about how it is going and keep talking.  We sat down each summer and discussed if this was what Dd still wanted.  It is very easy to get caught up in it all, and not want to get left behind. Many of Dd's peers were doing multiple Summer Schools... Easter Courses ... private lessons.... extra associate classes on top of vocational school to try and get noticed - it doesn't come cheap.

This is my priority @Fudge, that all my DCs remain in a nurturing environment and there is no doubt in my mind that this is at home. It is of course a big factor if DC dreams big and is actually given the opportunity, pros and cons would need to be weighed but for me, personally, I do not want to miss any second of their growing up years. I know that someday they will move away but if I had my way I would try and delay this as much as possible as long as this doesn’t hinder their big dream AND provided it is actually their dream and not anyone else’s (me included).

[Momapalooza]

10 minutes ago, rowan said:

I agree with everything @Harwel says. Regard ballet as a hobby. Anything else, madness lies. I’d almost say to not wish it upon your child. There can be so much damage done.

 
Regarding potential, as I’ve said before on here, I never stopped wondering if mine had any potential until the job offers came in. (Did not go to vocational school at all, was turned down for everything RBS, never had any private lessons or did a competition or any prestigious summer schools.) We regarded it as a serious hobby in her teen years, and I certainly expected nothing to come of it when she went off auditioning for jobs. 

I  very much like the idea of ballet as a hobby. I often have open conversations with DC and am honest enough to admit that if it were up to me, I’d rather DC consider auditioning at age 16. Part of this is because, based on my first hand experience alone, I find kids age 10/11 hardly know what they really want and are easily influenced by big names or what others want. Mine change their mind about most things every week! I don’t want DC, if by some miracle they get the opportunity to go away full time, to realise 1-2 years down the line that it isn’t what they wanted but then would be too guilty or hesitant to let me know because they know full well how much we have possibly invested (in the limited amount we can)  in getting them there, or for fear of others thinking they are giving up or are failures. I think that at age 16, they are more mature physically, mentally and emotionally and have a better gauge of what they want to do with the next couple of years of their life at least.  I also think that by that age, their bodies are more like what they would be as an adult, and is a better gauge of whether they might actually still have what it takes physically to go the classical route. 

[Kate_N]

Brava times a hundred, @Harwel

 

And your point about the fundamental requirement: 

1 hour ago, Harwel said:

No one gets a place if they are not incredibly gifted physically.  The training is intense and only a tiny minority can take it (a tiny % of those accepted at year 7) classical dancers are elite athletes that are born for the role.  

 is so true. And the physical gifts are never a 'level playing field' particularly when added to the requirement for musicality, communication ability, and the desire to want to use all these attributes. 

 

I remember having some physiotherapy treatment years ago, and the physio was a consultant to a major Olympic athlete team. She'd pointed out something in the way my legs worked out in turnout, and we were talking about the extreme physical requirements of dancers & athletes. I'll always remember her statement that Olympic class athletes had to be pretty much biomechanically perfect, because the intensity of training led to injuries otherwise. I think it's pretty similar for dancers.

[DD Driver]

I have nothing to say about who RBS select for White Lodge - you're welcome!

 

I do see cultural differences between the perspectives in the UK and Australia (probably true of the US too)

Where I live, in Australia, there is a very strong migrant & Asian mindset.  Part of this is the strong emphasis on hard work over natural talent. 

 

Yes, we can all agree that Ballet as a profession is dependent on having certain innate physical attributes and, as Kate_N says, being close to biomechanically perfect!

 

Students that I see, are working with what they have and try to improve on what they can.  If their parents can afford it and if the child has dedication & sufficient 'talent' (in the eye of the beholder!) to be admitted into a program - if selective. They work to maximise their personal potential.   Ericcson's theory of Mastery, in terms of physical expertise, required 10,000 hours of 'quality' practice.  Many characteristics previously considered innate talents were found to be the result of intense practice over ten years.  So this kind of effort and training can show results - particularly by the upper school ages & onwards.  Even artistic quality can be improved with greater technique and through training (shock horror)

 

You will shout that these students may suffer from over-work or never had the 'right' facility.  Often we see young 'stars' fade away.  Sometimes succeeding at big comps and performing lead roles as a teenager means you get injuries, burn out early or have little interest in being a lowly paid Corp member. So True!

 

If you are risking everything  - money, academics, broad childhood experiences - for the end goal of getting a professional contract then that is a very poor & uninformed gamble.  From my perspective as a parent however, I do see value in the journey, in the discipline, in the etiquette, in doing what you are good at, in developing your brain in this way, and experiencing how hard work produces results (body & performance-wise). 

Edited March 27, 2021 by DD Driver

[BalletBoyMumma]

Right, this is loooong and I can only speak for myself/my own DS but I must say, I feel rather uncomfortable reading this thread about people analysing the children who got a yes and what ‘training’ they’ve had and making assumptions based on social media posts. I’ve just switched my own Instagram to private because of this (DS doesn’t have one, I post of his ballet fun, and successes, on my own account). Maybe naive of me but I didn’t realise he’d be scrutinised like this. If I did I would have been far more cautious. 
 

My son is from ‘the south’, a JA, has had the same teacher as some other successful JA finalists and been in lots of classes (though all on zoom, none in person). Apparently all things which worked in his favour according to the conversations. 

I have credited numerous teachers/schools in my social media post but some are doubled (teacher AND programme tags so it probably looks like a lot more) - two didn’t even know he was auditioning for WL until that post, one didn’t know he was a JA. They all taught him just as they did their other students. He most certainly was NOT hot-housed and we could never have afforded (or travelled to) the extra classes he managed to take while online in the last few months. He has never met in-person with two of the teachers I credited in my post either, only on Zoom (though we hope to once restrictions lift, even if just to say huge thanks!) He is the first student from his local teacher to get into a vocational school.
Only as of 2021 (so less than 3 months), my son has been doing approx 4hrs a week of ballet (on Zoom). Certainly not ‘all hours’ or being overworked/over-trained. Some of this was for social benefit rather than ‘training’ as lockdown has taken a toll on his mental well-being.  Prior to JAs, starting in yr5, he was doing just 45min ballet per week (and 30min tap/jazz). Pre-pandemic he did a weekly local class, a fortnightly JA class and a once a month other associate programme. 

My point in explaining all of this is to show what you see online is often only a fraction of the real picture, even if you are seeing the same teacher or school named repeatedly (you will have in our case as the recommendation came from someone who’s child was having similar frustrations with Zoom) they might not be linked any more than being word of mouth recommendations to try a particular teacher/programme. 
If anything, this year the amazing  teachers have been far more accessible to everyone no matter which part of the country you live in. AND they don’t have to be crazy expensive - we’ve found Zoom costs are much, much lower than in the studio training would be.  I really wouldn’t rate some of the (non-teacher) professional dancers who’ve offered classes - amazing dancers, not so great at teaching. It can actually be more damaging to a child’s confidence when they are encouraged to keep up with a skill level well above their own and find that they just can’t (because it’s impossible at their age). 

 

It shouldn’t be a surprise that many JAs make it through to vocational schools. They’ve already been selected and then taught with vocational training being a possibility for their futures in mind. That doesn’t mean every JA is suited to it or that only JAs make it through (not at all!). There will still be lots and lots of potential in DCs out there, that’s why they open the auditions out to everyone rather than just keep it in house.

 

Please remember, this is just one route of many. And do try - always try! A love of dancing will shine through - there are lots of boxes to tick though, I really do believe potential mixed with particular physical aspects   (hence the physio checks) is what the schools are looking for. It would be lovely if it was simply a case of showing the ‘joy of dancing’ but that’s only one aspect unfortunately. Find good quality teachers and trust them. Most of all, tell your DCs to dance because they love it, not because they want to be successful. Most DCs won’t become successful dancers (I know this despite letting DS try) - but hopefully all Dcs will enjoy themselves while they dance. 

[BalletBoyMumma]

Instagram in particular can be horrible for making ourselves (or our DCs) feel like the bar is set too high. Ignore it. Dance because you love it. Ask your teacher questions and apply corrections with care and attention. One good quality teaching session is still better than 100 mediocre ones. 

[rowan]

9 hours ago, DD Driver said:

From my perspective as a parent however, I do see value in the journey, in the discipline, in the etiquette, in doing what you are good at, in developing your brain in this way, and experiencing how hard work produces results (body & performance-wise). 

I agree with much of what you’ve said in your longer post,@DD Driver. And when it all is going well, I agree with what’s been said above. But at some point parents must be aware that, for some, the journey becomes harmful, the discipline becomes bullying, the etiquette means not speaking out, doing what you’re good at becomes doing what you’re not good enough at, developing your brain becomes developing self-esteem issues, and hard work doesn’t produce any results at all. And parents may not be aware, because their child might not tell them.

 

When mine was younger, I sometimes used to look at the American ballet forum. I found it hard to believe the huge numbers of hours people were training in dance, on schedules that seem normal there, even for recreational students, but are really unheard of here, the home schooling purely to fit in “enough” hours of dance training, the worry over which level of dance you were in, the insistence on the “essential” very long summer intensives, often more than one, the obsession with YAGP, traineeships, the sheer expense of it all. I thought there was no way my child could ever compete with all that, because all American dance students must be so advanced. I had to stop looking at that site. It was irrelevant to what we could do at home with the resources and opportunities we had. We could do only what we could do.

[DD Driver]

21 minutes ago, rowan said:

I agree with much of what you’ve said in your longer post,@DD Driver. And when it all is going well, I agree with what’s been said above. But at some point parents must be aware that, for some, the journey becomes harmful, the discipline becomes bullying, the etiquette means not speaking out, doing what you’re good at becomes doing what you’re not good enough at, developing your brain becomes developing self-esteem issues, and hard work doesn’t produce any results at all. And parents may not be aware, because their child might not tell them.

 

I agree!  As parents we have to set boundaries.  How much money we are prepared to spend.  Enforcing academic requirements that must be met for the ballet hours to continue. Gaining an understanding of where your dancer realistically sits in the mix...

 

The industry was difficult before Covid, now we see dancers stuck, waiting and hoping.  It has been a brutal reality check. I have had many frank conversations with my DD.  A goal of growing up is to be able to get a job that pays your rent & food!  

[Momapalooza]

19 minutes ago, rowan said:

I agree with much of what you’ve said in your longer post,@DD Driver. And when it all is going well, I agree with what’s been said above. But at some point parents must be aware that, for some, the journey becomes harmful, the discipline becomes bullying, the etiquette means not speaking out, doing what you’re good at becomes doing what you’re not good enough at, developing your brain becomes developing self-esteem issues, and hard work doesn’t produce any results at all. And parents may not be aware, because their child might not tell them.

 

When mine was younger, I sometimes used to look at the American ballet forum. I found it hard to believe the huge numbers of hours people were training in dance, on schedules that seem normal there, even for recreational students, but are really unheard of here, the home schooling purely to fit in “enough” hours of dance training, the worry over which level of dance you were in, the insistence on the “essential” very long summer intensives, often more than one, the obsession with YAGP, traineeships, the sheer expense of it all. I thought there was no way my child could ever compete with all that, because all American dance students must be so advanced. I had to stop looking at that site. It was irrelevant to what we could do at home with the resources and opportunities we had. We could do only what we could do.

I became curious with the American way of training too @rowan One of my DCs was offered scholarships to a couple of “full time” virtual places for pre-professional training (I think this is what they are called? And yes, I too was surprised such a thing existed virtually!) and when I looked at the timetables, they were actually during the day time! I did query this and it looks like most who undertake serious training are home schooled to be able to squeeze all the training hours in. We had to decline them because despite the time difference, the timings still encroached on school hours here or are too late at night! I did wonder how they managed to train so many hours. 
 

I think Australia might have a culture of home schooling too for those who are training seriously. However, from what I’ve heard, it’s all very structured with a set timetable within the school. Most DC are able to train good full time hours while still living at home. And even for those preparing to go into the big schools there, there are good pre-vocational programmes all within the same school and students normally just attend other schemes similar to associates. Friends in Australia, not making a sweeping comment, has told me that as far as they know there is no culture of going to multiple schools and teachers In their area anyway. even when they have privates with another teacher, these are those who specialise in just privates and would need the permission of the main dance school before they would teach anyone. 

[glowlight]

8 hours ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

My point in explaining all of this is to show what you see online is often only a fraction of the real picture, even if you are seeing the same teacher or school named repeatedly

 

@BalletBoyMumma makes some excellent points in her post, but this is really important.  Social Media is media - it was what people chose to publish about themselves.  Just as what you read in a magazine or see on the TV may not give you a full and balanced picture - what people publish can be very one-sided.

 

I would also add that if one particular school has had particular success this year, it could be the luck of the draw, could be that they've struck it right with the balance of their teaching this year, or maybe the camaraderie that these students feel when auditioning together gave them that extra boost of confidence that helped them to shine in their final audition.

 

I remember the very first audition my dd did, her dance teacher took a group of them together and made a day out of it.  They were all dressed similarly with a little flower in their hair.  Although obviously they were judged as individuals they went in as a team. There is a strength in numbers that brings a special something.  

[DD Driver]

1 hour ago, Momapalooza said:

Friends in Australia, not making a sweeping comment, has told me that as far as they know there is no culture of going to multiple schools and teachers In their area anyway. even when they have privates with another teacher, these are those who specialise in just privates and would need the permission of the main dance school before they would teach anyone. 

 

That is my experience Momapalooza.  When a dancer is at a 'serious' ballet school they usually agree not to go to other schools or teachers.  The existing faculty should be sufficient. This includes private lessons if desired.  Maybe Australian Ballet School interstate or Queensland Associate programs but these are only for visits a few times per year.  

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, glowlight said:

 

@BalletBoyMumma makes some excellent points in her post, but this is really important.  Social Media is media - it was what people chose to publish about themselves.  Just as what you read in a magazine or see on the TV may not give you a full and balanced picture - what people publish can be very one-sided.

 

I would also add that if one particular school has had particular success this year, it could be the luck of the draw, could be that they've struck it right with the balance of their teaching this year, or maybe the camaraderie that these students feel when auditioning together gave them that extra boost of confidence that helped them to shine in their final audition.

 

I remember the very first audition my dd did, her dance teacher took a group of them together and made a day out of it.  They were all dressed similarly with a little flower in their hair.  Although obviously they were judged as individuals they went in as a team. There is a strength in numbers that brings a special something.  

 

Pas de Quatre has started a separate thread about Social Media here:  

 

[Flowerdew]

On 26/03/2021 at 17:26, Ballerina_girl said:

Interestingly I have yet to see or hear of a child from the north of the UK get a place at WL hopefully I am wrong and there is a few out there but from social media this doesn’t appear to be the case. I’m sure it’s just coincidence as I know there was a lot from the north at the finals 

One of my students got a place at WL, my studio is in the North West! 😀

[Flowerdew]

21 hours ago, Harwel said:

I have just been drawn down the rabbit hole of this thread - I rarely visit here anymore since my DS left the ballet world (I thank God everyday for that day!).  I feel the anxiety of the new parents just entering this world who want to try to explain everything, find a reason for everything, justify everything.  I think you are just finding out that NOTHING about the ballet world has anything to do about a level playing field (I genuinely don’t think anything in this world does).

 

 I strongly suggest you read some of the threads about the beautiful dancers who have gone through vocational school systems and come out utterly broken.  There are some on here, there are some 

on Instagram there are some on YouTube.  I truly wish all the beautiful young hopeful dancers get what they want and live a life of roses and sunshine - unfortunately this will not happen.  Many who have just got into vocational school will never make it to senior school and even fewer will make it a career. Some who were unsuccessful at gaining a place this year will actually do better by being nurtured at home and may find success later.  
 

What is this training for?  To get a job in a ballet company? Honestly, save your energy, stop comparing, stop blaming uneven playing fields, north south divides (never heard anything so nutty - can’t think a company AD gives a flying monkeys where someone is from given all the international hires).  Focus on your child’s needs, make them mentally strong, teach them to understand their worth in this world away from ballet.  If a ballet career is for them it will happen. if not, be grateful they will be super successful elsewhere. 
 

The standards are incredibly high, and increasing every year. No one gets a place if they are not incredibly gifted physically.  The training is intense and only a tiny minority can take it (a tiny % of those accepted at year 7) classical dancers are elite athletes that are born for the role.  
 

There is no level of training given by any 3rd party that will confer enough talent, dedication, physical attributes to a child that has not been born with those attributes.  If a child with those attributes does not get the level of training to bring it out then unfortunately a dance career is not their destiny. However, that training does not have to happen to gain a year 7 place. 
 

Enjoy your child’s successes, help them recognise the talent and dedication of others.  It seems to me the biggest challenge to our younger generation is mental health - make them mentally strong to face life in general.  Ballet will be a footnote in most of our children’s lives. 

Fully agree with this Harwel!! 
I’m a principal of a dance studio with many years of experience of children auditioning, being accepted, wait listed & not accepted into vocational schools & associate, your thoughts and experiences are spot on!! 

[BalletBoyMumma]

Absolutely agree on those teachers/schools who encourage a supportive attitude toward one another, even when they go into an audition and they’ll be each other’s direct competition. This supporting one another, enjoying themselves, and reminders to not compare themselves to each other (because they all have their own strengths and weaknesses) features a lot in our JA classes. And strongly with all the teachers we’ve chosen for DS (I’ve actively avoided the ones that promise success in this or that and gone for much more wholesome environments). It’s a real confidence builder. From what I’ve read on this forum most DCs made new friends at the auditions this year and really enjoyed themselves anyway, regardless of whether they are on a JA programme or not. That IS positive. 

 

And yes, only successes shown. I know I’ve not publicly posted the numerous times we’ve been unsuccessful for things. 

 

Can I suggest one really big thing I’ve found so helpful please? If you go to a class or event (associates or auditions etc) be open to making friends with the other parents and encourage your DCs to make friends too, even if they likely won’t know anyone there.

TV-type ‘Dance mums’ (or ‘tiger mums’) do exist but they are not nearly as common in the UK. Many parents of ballet-loving children have fallen into this world by accident and are mostly just winging it, relying on advice from teachers and forums like this one. I used to think it was a ridiculously competitive world and that everyone would be super judgy but actually almost every other ballet parent we’ve met has been lovely...and they have their own worries about ‘are we doing this right?’ Instagram will ALWAYS be problematic but having those friendships allows you to see that they are all just normal children who have talent and some happen to be very self-driven, even at this young age. The friendships will help ease the stress a little, especially for the DCs. It’ll bring opportunities you might not hear about otherwise too. 
There’s honestly nothing nicer than a fellow parent tagging you in a post because they think your DC might like a particular zoom workshop. Especially when they are not from the same local dance school and you only see them once a blue-moon but they’ve thought of your DC anyway. And vice-versa. The support for each other is really encouraging. Also seeing your DC’s excitement about going to an event (even on Zoom) knowing they’ll see friends they’ve met at a previous workshop is really nice. 

If your DC has attended and enjoyed an audition experience, do it again and again and again (if you can) - even if it’s just for them to show off their dancing. I think it’s always safer at this age to assume it’ll be a no but just go in and enjoy the experience. The reality is there are far fewer school places than there are talented dancers. And even if a DC gets a yes, a devastating no could be coming a bit later down the line when it’ll likely to be much harder hitting and have a bigger impact on their lives (this is my fear!). 
 

You’ll never know if you don’t try these things out though. 

 

[BalletBoyMum1]

My ds was chosen for finals for 2 schools, he is not in any associate scheme, just his local dance school. He does more hours now only because he chose to do extra ballet and less other dancing. 

 

This is the first time he has experienced any auditions and had an amazing time. He met some lovely other boys and wished he had written down his phone number so they could text and maybe play on computers together. He came out buzzing from both auditions.

 

He didn't get upset at not getting a place at WL but instead said that means he gets to stay with his family (unless he gets offered Elmhurst) and that he wants to audition for everything he can as he lived meeting other boys, his age, who love ballet as much as him.

 

I really enjoyed chatting to some of the other Mums outside Elmhurst, while waiting for the boys to finish. I have only come across supportive, lovely parents and would have loved to stay in touch. Thank you for making both mine and my sons first auditions relaxed and fun xx

[BalletBoyMumma]

@BalletBoyMum1they were a really lovely group. Huge credit to every single one of them on that. 💙👏👏👏

(My DS has been asking about your DS - would love to keep in touch if possible.  )

Fingers tightly crossed for Elmhurst! 🤞🤞🤞

So glad to hear he had a wonderful time at that one also - it makes such a huge difference for them. 

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, BalletBoyMum1 said:

1 hour ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

 

(My DS has been asking about your DS - would love to keep in touch if possible.  )

 

 

I really enjoyed chatting to some of the other Mums outside Elmhurst, while waiting for the boys to finish. I have only come across supportive, lovely parents and would have loved to stay in touch. Thank you for making both mine and my sons first auditions relaxed and fun xx

 

If you want to keep in touch why not DM each other.  

[BalletBoyMumma]

34 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

If you want to keep in touch why not DM each other.  

We have.