Is it really still potential? (Royal Ballet School 2021 intake)

[Ballerina_girl]

1 minute ago, valentina said:

 
The above post is proof then, of how social media can be so misleading! And how interpretation of social media is so misleading! 
I can tell you from experience there are pupils at White Lodge from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scottish Borders, Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester ( many) and Yorkshire. It seems very odd that posters could come to a conclusion about the locations of students from social media alone.

the reply was in reference to this years intake only. That is what the original post topic was in relation to but I will edit it to clarify that. 

[Ballerina_girl]

3 minutes ago, valentina said:

 
The above post is proof then, of how social media can be so misleading! And how interpretation of social media is so misleading! 
I can tell you from experience there are pupils at White Lodge from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scottish Borders, Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester ( many) and Yorkshire. It seems very odd that posters could come to a conclusion about the locations of students from social media alone.

i can’t edit it because I’ve already edited the spelling and can’t edit again. But it was in relation to this years intake only, apologies if that was not clear and I caused confusion but as I say that’s what the original post topic was in relation too. I have seen about 9 posts on social media all of same gender group that are all from the south so I think it was a fair observation and it was interesting how someone else had picked up on that too. Apparently there was 12 places this year so it’s a fair statement to say the majority are from the south 

[Guest oncnp]

46 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I know it is some years ago but Matthew Ball, now a principal at the Royal Ballet, went through White Lodge and Upper School and graduated into the company.  He is from Liverpool.

 

Reece Clarke, First Soloist for the RB, is even further north - Scotland. 

[Momapalooza]

2 minutes ago, Weloveballet said:

i can’t edit it because I’ve already edited the spelling and can’t edit again. But it was in relation to this years intake only, apologies if that was not clear and I caused confusion but as I say that’s what the original post topic was in relation too. I have seen about 9 posts on social media all of same gender group that are all from the south so I think it was a fair observation and it was interesting how someone else had picked up on that too. Apparently there was 12 places this year so it’s a fair statement to say the majority are from the south 

This is what I meant too. And yes, same number. 9/12 places (single gender group) I would say is quite skewed region-wise although as others might say perhaps this is coincidence. However this is the same gender group who appear to have quite a lot of training this year. To be fair, I don’t refer just to their own posts although some are very much active posters.  They get posted by various teachers and schools too. And I’m not generalising, just an observation of THIS year’s audition group.  I believe other year groups are more of a mix. And come Year 10 even more so once more internationals enter the mix.  

Sadly, I do think this is going to get more “normalised”. One wouldn’t have to be on social media a lot to see that there is an influx of accounts of kids (parent monitored or otherwise), not yet audition age but already doing a whole lot more than kids their age years ago. The move of a lot of things to online delivery has made the world a much smaller place. Zoom has made it possible for a kid to have 2, 3, 4 lessons a day from the confort of their own homes during lockdown. We’ve seen young kids proudly say on social media that it’s been a busy day with 5 hours of training. Or that they’ve just finished a masterclass, associates, Pilates and then another workshop. It’s easier to contact industry professionals, teachers who wouldn’t normally do private lessons online, company dancers, company teachers. This to me is far from what it used to be years ago. but we’ve heard this before a million times in recent months -  It’s unprecedented times and everyone is trying to make it work, make a living and those who can, take the opportunity to maximise options if they can. My worry is that at some point the lines will get so blurred that panel members and teachers in auditions might have taught auditionees in the past as the world is now so connected virtually and otherwise. Although I know everyone will be consummate professionals and will be acting in separate, professional capacities, I wonder what perception this will give if some kids are familiar with key audition personnel. 

[Ballerina_girl]

5 minutes ago, oncnp said:

Reece Clarke, First Soloist for the RB, is even further north - Scotland. 

Again I think the point being missed is that OP was in relation to this year and  whether things had started to change. It’s what my reply was in relation to also. This years intake only. And again apologies if this was not clear. But it’s what I thought the topic was regarding 

[Ballerina_girl]

14 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

This is what I meant too. And yes, same number. 9/12 places (single gender group) I would say is quite skewed region-wise although as others might say perhaps this is coincidence. However this is the same gender group who appear to have quite a lot of training this year. To be fair, I don’t refer just to their own posts although some are very much active posters.  They get posted by various teachers and schools too. And I’m not generalising, just an observation of THIS year’s audition group.  I believe other year groups are more of a mix. And come Year 10 even more so once more internationals enter the mix.  

Sadly, I do think this is going to get more “normalised”. One wouldn’t have to be on social media a lot to see that there is an influx of accounts of kids (parent monitored or otherwise), not yet audition age but already doing a whole lot more than kids their age years ago. The move of a lot of things to online delivery has made the world a much smaller place. Zoom has made it possible for a kid to have 2, 3, 4 lessons a day from the confort of their own homes during lockdown. We’ve seen young kids proudly say on social media that it’s been a busy day with 5 hours of training. Or that they’ve just finished a masterclass, associates, Pilates and then another workshop. It’s easier to contact industry professionals, teachers who wouldn’t normally do private lessons online, company dancers, company teachers. This to me is far from what it used to be years ago. but we’ve heard this before a million times in recent months -  It’s unprecedented times and everyone is trying to make it work, make a living and those who can, take the opportunity to maximise options if they can. My worry is that at some point the lines will get so blurred that panel members and teachers in auditions might have taught auditionees in the past as the world is now so connected virtually and otherwise. Although I know everyone will be consummate professionals and will be acting in separate, professional capacities, I wonder what perception this will give if some kids are familiar with key audition personnel. 

i get you completely and I couldn’t agree more. I think your post was a very good observation and one I had made myself. I have theories as to why I believe a certain area of the country have had access to more training than others but I will keep them to myself as already I feel the point I was making is being misinterpreted. It is a fact that from dance school posts on Instagram/ Facebook with a simple search of royal ballet school you can see quite clearly there is 9 of one gender group from the south. So discussing what has happened in other years is irrelevant. Times are changing over the last year and certain people can access more training more easily via zoom and extra classes and certain people can’t.  I think you made a great point. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Weloveballet

[Momapalooza]

4 minutes ago, Weloveballet said:

i get you completely and I couldn’t agree more. I think your post was a very good observation and one I had made myself. I have theories as to why I believe a certain area of the country have had access to more training than others but I will keep them to myself as already I feel the point I was making is being misinterpreted. It is a fact that from dance school posts on Instagram/ Facebook with a simple search of royal ballet school you can see quite clearly there is 9 of one gender group from the south. So discussing what has happened in other years is irrelevant. Times are changing over the last year and certain people can access more training more easily via zoom and extra classes and certain people can’t.  I think you made a great point. 

I feel the same. I do have my theories too and while they are just that and are my own personal opinion, they might get misunderstood. What we have stated I believe is quite obvious even if someone simply check the tags of certain schools. I am not exaggerating when I say that I once saw the same child being posted by no less than 4 different teachers within the same week for various classes. It will only be a matter of time before some children would have so much more means and access to training that they will see familiar faces in auditions! Nothing wrong with this of course but I always think it’s the perception that counts, in terms of fairness. 

[Balletmummy18]

I think the OP makes a very good point and certainly in my experience of my dd doing the audition rounds for JA/ voc school 5 long years ago there was already certain pool of teachers, associate programmes  etc in London which seemed to confer an ‘advantage’ . we have all seen that explode with Covid and zoom / social media opportunities so that over training ‘becomes the norm for children. 

 

Having money for privates, summer intensives etc certainly helps/ confers advantage  whilst at voc school too!!
 

But the OP asks is still about potential and is it still worth applying for Year 7 without all this- absolutely.. every year at WL a ( albeit) few  children gain places with a few hours of training a week ..& . funny enough my dd achieved her JA place in yr 6 and WL place when ,in a vain attempt to get off the rollercoaster,we cut down her hours to 2 hours a week....so give it a go ... just be prepared if this dream comes true as it shockingly did for us...

[Ballerina_girl]

11 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

I feel the same. I do have my theories too and while they are just that and are my own personal opinion, they might get misunderstood. What we have stated I believe is quite obvious even if someone simply check the tags of certain schools. I am not exaggerating when I say that I once saw the same child being posted by no less than 4 different teachers within the same week for various classes. It will only be a matter of time before some children would have so much more means and access to training that they will see familiar faces in auditions! Nothing wrong with this of course but I always think it’s the perception that counts, in terms of fairness. 

Absolutely - 100 percent agree. Unfortunately for children that don’t have the means/access to this I think they have unfortunately been at a disadvantage this year. I felt in my head that the royal ballet might have been looking for a rough diamond/ diamond in the rough so to speak. And unfortunately I don’t think this theory was correct, at least not for this year.  

[Ballerina_girl]

11 minutes ago, Balletmummy18 said:

I think the OP makes a very good point and certainly in my experience of my dd doing the audition rounds for JA/ voc school 5 long years ago there was already certain pool of teachers, associate programmes  etc in London which seemed to confer an ‘advantage’ . we have all seen that explode with Covid and zoom / social media opportunities so that over training ‘becomes the norm for children. 

 

Having money for privates, summer intensives etc certainly helps/ confers advantage  whilst at voc school too!!
 

But the OP asks is still about potential and is it still worth applying for Year 7 without all this- absolutely.. every year at WL a ( albeit) few  children gain places with a few hours of training a week ..& . funny enough my dd achieved her JA place in yr 6 and WL place when ,in a vain attempt to get off the rollercoaster,we cut down her hours to 2 hours a week....so give it a go ... just be prepared if this dream comes true as it shockingly did for us...

absolutely if someone said to try all over again we would do it in a heartbeat it’s been a fantastic experience for her 

[MrsMoo2]

Just as a side interest my DS was horribly bullied when he started HS at 11 for his love of ballet dancing. We sat down and set him up on Instagram so he could find other boys and feel less isolated. It works brilliantly for us. We both manage it, and he will quite happily say, “put this on my page” when he has something he wants to share. We’ve met lots of other dancing boys, found out about Phoenix Boys, LBBC, and other boy opportunities we would never know about living in rural Wales. So although you have to take some content with a pinch of salt, it’s given him people to aspire to, people who understand him and access to the dance world in a way that would have been impossible a few years back. Ideally he would have gone to vocational school but it wasn’t meant to be. Finances stopped us from having private lessons every week. Thankfully though, he’s found his tribe, and that has done wonders for his self esteem and confidence. He’s almost 14 now and still dancing! 

[Momapalooza]

16 minutes ago, Balletmummy18 said:

I think the OP makes a very good point and certainly in my experience of my dd doing the audition rounds for JA/ voc school 5 long years ago there was already certain pool of teachers, associate programmes  etc in London which seemed to confer an ‘advantage’ . we have all seen that explode with Covid and zoom / social media opportunities so that over training ‘becomes the norm for children. 

 

Having money for privates, summer intensives etc certainly helps/ confers advantage  whilst at voc school too!!
 

But the OP asks is still about potential and is it still worth applying for Year 7 without all this- absolutely.. every year at WL a ( albeit) few  children gain places with a few hours of training a week ..& . funny enough my dd achieved her JA place in yr 6 and WL place when ,in a vain attempt to get off the rollercoaster,we cut down her hours to 2 hours a week....so give it a go ... just be prepared if this dream comes true as it shockingly did for us...

 It does seem that way, doesn’t it? Just out of curiosity, I did wonder if associates teachers are permitted to teach privately or teach in other schools. I guess some of them would have their own too.  But what will happen if one of them is asked to teach an audition class and there are children they have taught in their school/other schools/privately in that class? I’m not quite sure if the teacher has a say on decisions but I guess it’s just the panel members who do. I hope this doesn’t happen though as it might be seen as an unfair advantage even if in reality it’s all fair and transparent. 

[Ruby Foo]

This whole thread is interesting and makes some important points  but takes a rather one dimensional view of the process of training dancers. 1 ‘real’ live class is worth more than 5 online classes. What is really happening in those online classes? How could anyone possibly know what the quality of those classes are? Plenty ‘big names’, dancer wise,  make less than adequate teachers.  I can tell you this from experience. How well does the teacher know the pupil? Does the teacher know the pupils history? Body? How good is their relationship? How good is the teacher when teaching online? Trying to decipher all these very important questions from social media.... waste of time.
Even if a student is taking 5 REAL LIVE private lessons a week it doesn’t mean they are improving or taking on board the corrections given, or even that the classes are worth taking in the first place. You can’t tell anything from anything from peoples stories. 

Most of us will know students who did all the lessons, Ambassadors for this and that, easy ride vocationally from yr 7 etc etc etc.

But believe me, this is only the beginning of a very long and arduous journey that needs to climax at 18/19 yrs. Many of those superstars are not superstars now. Why?

Because being successful at 11/12/13/ doesn’t guarantee a thing! Being able to to 32 perfect fouettés en pointe age 13 does not guarantee you anything! There is burn out, injury, puberty, over developed muscles, growing too tall, being too small, motivation, perseverance, genetics, luck of teachers, luck in guidance, luck in general,

parental support, diet, discipline and on and on and on. Going to vocational school age 11 is handy, sure, but it means nothing in terms of landing a classical company job.
You make a good observation that living near London will obviously make it easier to access more teachers, (as will having the finance to access the tuition), but that doesn’t mean they are excellent teachers. Being a ‘big name’ does not always mean you will get the kind of tuition you need. Because students need different tuition dependent on their very different needs and personality and FORCING a pupil on, even subtlety, will have consequences later.

When a pupils natural talent and ability, coincides with their technical ability, and their confidence and performance also peaks at that very same time, then the student has  arrived. This can happen ANYTIME! It may mean, that a student at a very small school that only does one lesson a week and has no idea about competitions auditions etc needs to find something extra to give them the confidence they need To SHOW OFF their talents so they can be noticed. But providing a vocational school can see that a talented student has enough confidence to promote themselves, and let THE JOY OF DANCING SHINE THROUGH then that is all that is needed. For those who didn’t get a yes this time, then find a different way. Because it’s not just about how many lessons you can afford or take! It’s about thinking creatively, about what suits you as a person and a family, about finding different ways to get to the same point! About honest research, not social media! Some of the smaller, quieter places can lead, surprisingly, to a better/ same outcome!

It is all about the joy of dancing, feeling the music, enjoying and perfecting the detail, dealing with the disappointments when they come, feeling the support of your friends and teachers, dealing with your injuries, understanding when to push and when not...the magical essence of dance. None of this can ever be reflected in social media.

 

[tutugirl]

Over the last 3 years , I have sent several students off to vocational school . Elmhurst (1) Tring (1) White lodge (1) Moorlands (1) Hammond (2)

Several of these got multiple offers .

Apart from one child , they all attended one ballet class ( syllabus) per week and one body conditioning / free ballet class . Some did tap and jazz ( 1 class per week) . One was a Moorlands associate , several were JA’s .

All these students gained MDS . None of them was big on Instagram , some not even on it at all .

They just had a couple of private lessons before their auditions .

It can be done !

[Ballerina_girl]

I think looking now from my experience as a newbie, with my dd gaining a place at the final this year but being very inexperienced in terms of no associates training, zoom coaching etc and me not really knowing that this coaching world even all existed I think it’s safe to say I was quite naive, and I wish I had known this before the audition to be better prepared for knowing what they wanted.  I think it’s really helpful for others to know this going ahead. I’ve had another look on Instagram right now and there’s children on there that have gained places that are being coached by several expert coaches. I think in my head I had the Billy Elliot scenario of them finding a raw imperfect talent that took their eye. I really don’t think this is the case. These dancers look fabulous polished dancers. Maybe this year they did not want to take the risk or chance and played it abit safer knowing we could be back in lockdown. That being said my opinion of the experience being one to remember and a special one does not change. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Weloveballet

[Sally-Anne]

I honestly didn’t realise that Instagram was a thing for young ballet students. What is the aim of having an Instagram account for a child of 10 or 11 years, or even younger?

Is there not a safeguarding or privacy concern, given the age of the children? 
Maybe I’m old fashioned but I would not allow my children to have social media accounts at this age. 
Nor would I share pictures or details about them publicly. 
Perhaps because I’m a ‘vintage’ Mum 😂

 

[Cheshiredancemum]

6 hours ago, Ballerina_girl said:

Interestingly I have yet to see or hear of a child from the north of the UK get a place at WL hopefully I am wrong and there is a few out there but from social media this doesn’t appear to be the case. I’m sure it’s just coincidence as I know there was a lot from the north at the finals 

 

6 hours ago, TwirlyWhirly said:

My DS did!

My DD too! X

[Ballerina_girl]

6 hours ago, Cheshiredancemum said:

 

My DD too! X

That’s really good. Well done to your DD you are the first and only girl I’ve heard of getting a place from the north. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Define the North! And how far back do you want to go? Hull has produced some first class dancers via RBS over the years. 

[Momapalooza]

7 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Define the North! And how far back do you want to go? Hull has produced some first class dancers via RBS over the years. 

I believe @Ballerina_girl was referring to only this year’s offers of places to a certain school. We don’t dispute there have been lots from the north and beyond but one can easily do a search of the school’s name on social media to see that for a specific gender, this year’s offers for entry are predominantly for DC who live or based in South. I’d say maybe South of the midlands. The same search would reveal that for quite a few of these they have been trained by multiple schools and teachers. It would also appear just based on observation of social media posts by said children and or their schools that they have trained perhaps in unprecedented levels compared to say 4-5 years ago of similar children. Not claiming this to be fact but just observation of what is in the public domain being posted. And very very specific to recent offers of a particular intake (THIS year) of a particular gender to a particular school.

[Momapalooza]

7 hours ago, Sally-Anne said:

I honestly didn’t realise that Instagram was a thing for young ballet students. What is the aim of having an Instagram account for a child of 10 or 11 years, or even younger?

Is there not a safeguarding or privacy concern, given the age of the children? 
Maybe I’m old fashioned but I would not allow my children to have social media accounts at this age. 
Nor would I share pictures or details about them publicly. 
Perhaps because I’m a ‘vintage’ Mum 😂

 

I am with you on this @Sally-Anne however I do also see the point of others when they say it’s a means to meet peers and like-minded individuals and to share their journey to inspire others. It’s very much a social thing as the name suggests but also I believe it’s to get out there, maybe even endorse brands. Some tag schools, places, teachers, brands of items they wear/use. A simple experiment would be to do a # search of school names. 

[Momapalooza]

1 hour ago, Ballerina_girl said:

That’s really good. Well done to your DD you are the first and only girl I’ve heard of getting a place from the north. 

  
I would actually guess that up to maybe even 11 of this specific gender who were offered places this year live or are based (attend dance schools/associates) in the South: within London, South West, South East or Home Counties. I could be wrong obviously. Coincidence, perhaps. I would estimate 6 are from the same associates centre alone. And if previous years are to go by, not counting subsequent offers from intensives, there will be a token 1-2 MAX who weren’t previously known as an associate but is/are likely to have been in the school’s intensives in the past.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Momapalooza

[Ballerina_girl]

37 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Define the North! And how far back do you want to go? Hull has produced some first class dancers via RBS over the years. 

As mentioned several times on the thread it is in relation to this years intake only. 

[Ballerina_girl]

24 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

I believe @Ballerina_girl was referring to only this year’s offers of places to a certain school. We don’t dispute there have been lots from the north and beyond but one can easily do a search of the school’s name on social media to see that for a specific gender, this year’s offers for entry are predominantly for DC who live or based in South. I’d say maybe South of the midlands. The same search would reveal that for quite a few of these they have been trained by multiple schools and teachers. It would also appear just based on observation of social media posts by said children and or their schools that they have trained perhaps in unprecedented levels compared to say 4-5 years ago of similar children. Not claiming this to be fact but just observation of what is in the public domain being posted. And very very specific to recent offers of a particular intake (THIS year) of a particular gender to a particular school.

Absolutely. This years intake for WL specifically. It’s there on social media for all to see.  I cannot and was not commenting on previous years. Absolutely these children this year have been trained in unprecedented levels. For children who’s family cannot afford this level of training or don’t have access to it I think they’ve been disadvantaged this year. 

[SissonneDoublee]

To take only this year’s intake of one school, and only one gender within the Year 7 class as a sample, is hardly a representation of the children accessing vocational training. To claim that they all come from the south while discounting any reference to previous year groups ‘because we are talking about this year’s intake’ is absurd. Looking at such a tiny sample can only observe coincidences. Several posters have pointed out that this is not a pattern over time.

 

When talking about students accessing huge amounts of training and having a massive online presence, you have to also bear in mind the huge number of children that do both these things without securing a place at any of the vocational schools. Having lots of classes with ‘big name’ teachers and posting photos on Instagram doesn’t lead to a vocational place. Hard work sometimes includes these things, particularly the additional training, but there are many other factors. Any child in a ballet class is capable of asking for additional exercises to do at home and practicing daily. That will make more difference than a dozen online tutorials. Lots of posters have said that they know of DC who had very few lessons apart from a couple of ballet lessons and a good associates programme each week. Again, you can’t look at only part of one cohort and try to make any conclusions, ignoring all references to previous year groups.

 

Every year we comb through the ‘yeses’ trying to find an explanation or a pattern. It’s only natural to look for answers, especially when faced with a disappointment. But to try to put it down to privilege or geography rather than talent, hard work and physical suitability, is insulting to the children that have worked so hard to get there.

Edited March 27, 2021 by SissonneDoublee
Typo

[Sally-Anne]

40 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

I am with you on this @Sally-Anne however I do also see the point of others when they say it’s a means to meet peers and like-minded individuals and to share their journey to inspire others. It’s very much a social thing as the name suggests but also I believe it’s to get out there, maybe even endorse brands. Some tag schools, places, teachers, brands of items they wear/use. A simple experiment would be to do a # search of school names. 

Interesting. Is there a financial benefit to endorsing brands? And back to your original point, do you think it helps these kids get places in the schools they tag? And if so, why/how? 
(Im genuinely curious)

[Momapalooza]

3 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

To take only this year’s intake of one school, and only one gender within the Year 7 class as a sample, is hardly a representation of the children accessing vocational training. To claim that they all come from the south while discounting any reference to previous year groups ‘because we are talking about this year’s intake’ is absurd. Looking at such a tiny sample can only observe coincidences. Several posters have pointed out that this is not a pattern over time.

 

When talking about students accessing huge amounts of training and having a massive online presence, you have to also bear in mind the huge number of children that do both these things without securing a place at any of the vocational schools. Having lots of classes with ‘big name’ teachers and posting photos on Instagram doesn’t lead to a vocational place. Hard work sometimes includes these things, particularly the additional training, but there are many other factors. Any child in a ballet class is capable of asking for additional exercises to do at home and practicing daily. That will make more difference than a dozen online tutorials. Lots of posters have said that they know of DC who had very few lessons apart from a couple of ballet lessons and a good vocational programme each week. Again, you can’t look at only part of one cohort and try to make any conclusions, ignoring all references to previous year groups.

 

Every year we comb through the ‘yeses’ trying to find an explanation or a pattern. It’s only natural to look for answers, especially when faced with a disappointment. But to try to put it down to privilege or geography rather than talent, hard work, dedication and physical suitability, is insulting to the children that have worked so hard to get there.

If I sounded like it, I apologise, but I wasn’t intending to make sweeping generalisations. My original post was more about a concern that this could be the trend moving forwards. Of course I would be happy to be proven wrong and that this particular year would not be the norm for the following years. The past year has been a very different ones and this of course could be a factor. The only reason I was saying my comment was for a particular intake is to address those who thought I was making a general comment covering several years.  There is no pattern as such, and I wasn’t alluding to any, but what I was hoping won’t happen is that for this to become a pattern because that would severely limit the demographic of children who can access full time training in vocational schools. I obviously don’t know the circumstances of these DCs and I would never claim to, but an interesting thought I had was that how many of these kids would actually need a substantial level of MDS funding?   I know of many lovely stories of DCs who are funded through associates etc where the family cannot afford such extras, but I still personally believe that to attain a certain level to be truly competitive one has to have means to do so or be so stunning as to be awarded scholarships or other sorts of funding.  Would everyone have the time to travel long hours to access a particular associates? Attend classes almost every day of the week? Have privates? 
 

I had no intention to be insulting. In my previous posts I had made this clear that I don’t wish to take anything from ang children.  No one can dispute their talent, hard work and suitability which is why they achieved what they did. However, I stand by my statement that having the means to fully complement, nurture, progress and enhance these attributes helps. Perhaps I am wrong and a “rough diamond” can show up in a group of exquisitely trained, hardworking, determined dancers and be noticed. Anyone who gets to these final stages of getting into full time schools must have potential and facility  of some level. The difference might be that better trained young dancers would probably know how to harness their strengths, and hide weaknesses (if any).

The bottom line is that I would like to see a pattern NOT to emerge. You are completely right and that this is just this year’s. It would be a nice thought that everyone who works hard and has the potential has an equal chance to achieve their dream, regardless of having the means to do so. I always did say I love a good success story, and much prefer those that are about people who managed to defy odds.  

[Momapalooza]

2 minutes ago, Sally-Anne said:

Interesting. Is there a financial benefit to endorsing brands? And back to your original point, do you think it helps these kids get places in the schools they tag? And if so, why/how? 
(Im genuinely curious)

I am not sure to be honest, I wouldn’t have thought so? Perhaps they get provided products for free to advertise. I don’t really know. 
 

I would like to think tagging won’t help them get places as ultimately it would be how they perform in auditions. I wouldn’t know what their rationale is for tagging. Maybe it’s institutional pride as most would already be in the school’s system anyway.   I very much doubt schools browse through their own tags to identify potentials. 

[Ballerina_girl]

5 minutes ago, Momapalooza said:

If I sounded like it, I apologise, but I wasn’t intending to make sweeping generalisations. My original post was more about a concern that this could be the trend moving forwards. Of course I would be happy to be proven wrong and that this particular year would not be the norm for the following years. The past year has been a very different ones and this of course could be a factor. The only reason I was saying my comment was for a particular intake is to address those who thought I was making a general comment covering several years.  There is no pattern as such, and I wasn’t alluding to any, but what I was hoping won’t happen is that for this to become a pattern because that would severely limit the demographic of children who can access full time training in vocational schools. I obviously don’t know the circumstances of these DCs and I would never claim to, but an interesting thought I had was that how many of these kids would actually need a substantial level of MDS funding?   I know of many lovely stories of DCs who are funded through associates etc where the family cannot afford such extras, but I still personally believe that to attain a certain level to be truly competitive one has to have means to do so or be so stunning as to be awarded scholarships or other sorts of funding.  Would everyone have the time to travel long hours to access a particular associates? Attend classes almost every day of the week? Have privates? 
 

I had no intention to be insulting. In my previous posts I had made this clear that I don’t wish to take anything from ang children.  No one can dispute their talent, hard work and suitability which is why they achieved what they did. However, I stand by my statement that having the means to fully complement, nurture, progress and enhance these attributes helps. Perhaps I am wrong and a “rough diamond” can show up in a group of exquisitely trained, hardworking, determined dancers and be noticed. Anyone who gets to these final stages of getting into full time schools must have potential and facility  of some level. The difference might be that better trained young dancers would probably know how to harness their strengths, and hide weaknesses (if any).

The bottom line is that I would like to see a pattern NOT to emerge. You are completely right and that this is just this year’s. It would be a nice thought that everyone who works hard and has the potential has an equal chance to achieve their dream, regardless of having the means to do so. I always did say I love a good success story, and much prefer those that are about people who managed to defy odds.  

completely agree. I don’t think it’s absurd at all to make an observation on a specific year especially when this year has been such a changing year on how things are done. It is a discussion forum after all 

[Bunny]

My DS (from the north!) has made the WL waitlist. He doesn’t have an Instagram. We did absolutely no additional training, no private lessons, no one to one coaching. Just his normal ballet class and JA class via Zoom. Looking at the results and seeing all these posts on Instagram, as well as his reaction to the news, I can’t help but feel I have let him down by not realising this was the apparent ‘norm’ 😓 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Bunny

[Ballerina_girl]

30 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

To take only this year’s intake of one school, and only one gender within the Year 7 class as a sample, is hardly a representation of the children accessing vocational training. To claim that they all come from the south while discounting any reference to previous year groups ‘because we are talking about this year’s intake’ is absurd. Looking at such a tiny sample can only observe coincidences. Several posters have pointed out that this is not a pattern over time.

 

When talking about students accessing huge amounts of training and having a massive online presence, you have to also bear in mind the huge number of children that do both these things without securing a place at any of the vocational schools. Having lots of classes with ‘big name’ teachers and posting photos on Instagram doesn’t lead to a vocational place. Hard work sometimes includes these things, particularly the additional training, but there are many other factors. Any child in a ballet class is capable of asking for additional exercises to do at home and practicing daily. That will make more difference than a dozen online tutorials. Lots of posters have said that they know of DC who had very few lessons apart from a couple of ballet lessons and a good associates programme each week. Again, you can’t look at only part of one cohort and try to make any conclusions, ignoring all references to previous year groups.

 

Every year we comb through the ‘yeses’ trying to find an explanation or a pattern. It’s only natural to look for answers, especially when faced with a disappointment. But to try to put it down to privilege or geography rather than talent, hard work and physical suitability, is insulting to the children that have worked so hard to get there.

No intention to insult, in fact I think it’s been commented how immensely talented these children appear to be this year, that there doesn’t appear to be any rough diamonds in the mix. it is a discussion forum after all, I have mentioned several times how it was an observation that could be a complete coincidence. But with prestige schools it is well known that sometimes being more privileged can stand you in better stead and it again is just an observation that many have had access to multiple coaches that a lot would not have the means to access 

[Momapalooza]

1 minute ago, Bunny said:

My DS (from the north!) has made the WL waitlist. We did absolutely no additional training, no private lessons, no one to one coaching. Just his normal ballet class and JA class via Zoom. Looking at the results and seeing all these posts on Instagram, as well as his reaction to the news, I can’t help but feel I have let him down by not realising this was the apparent ‘norm’ 😓 

@Bunnyyour DS has done extremely well and you should be very proud! I still think that’s how it should be - how your DS approached it. 
 

As some posts said, this year is not the “norm” (I am so hoping it won’t be for the following years) and might just be coincidence for this particular year. It won’t count for much as it’s just my personal opinion but I do think boys still have more of a chance even if they have potential alone and not extensive training. For boys, the time before auditions I think doesn’t get as intense as it does for some girls, which is always a good thing and should be the norm. This year, I get the impression that it’s been a bit of a frenzy for some leading up to auditions! I will keep my fingers tightly crossed for you, that your DS gets a place. 

[DD Driver]

In Australia, a number of young dancers are brand ambassadors e.g. Bloch, Gaynors...  This can be for dance photographers or merchandise such as shoes or dance bags or leotards and the like. if you are going through a lot of pointe shoes this can be attractive, especially to the parents.  Some dancers want audition photo's from specialist photographers. In these deals however you have to post very frequently.  That can be onerous.

Edited March 27, 2021 by DD Driver