Dancing, training and issues with body image, resilience, etc.

[DD Driver]

34 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

Indeed, Tulip! I saw it go on when I was a teenage ballet student - my sister (who went on to have a very successful career in an excellent company) was particularly targeted by such comments. We ere talking about this the other day. 30 years later she still remembers the hurt of the envious comments. 
 

I think that’s why I find some posts on this thread a bit uncomfortable. 

 

I am very sorry to hear people said nasty things and targeted your sister - or any young student! 

 

Auditions are competitive situations and can be stressful.  Directors are making selections based on their personal, preferred criteria.  Of course.  Different students have different advantages - in their facility, their body shape, their dancing, their looks, their height etc.  I don't believe that commenting on where the preferences (appear)  to lie, is necessarily a product of envy.  

 

People are looking to understand the selection criteria and what directors want.  Over the 4 pages of this thread there are posts discussing pressures on those selected to maintain an extremely low body weight - despite their (probably) natural leanness!  This is not in the interest of any child or adult interested in pursuing ballet, professionally or for pleasure.  IMHO!

Edited October 19, 2020 by DD Driver

[Anon2]

15 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

 

I am very sorry to hear people said nasty things and targeted your sister - or any young student! 

 

Auditions are competitive situations and can be stressful.  Directors are making selections based on their personal, preferred criteria.  Of course.  Different students have different advantages - in their facility, their body shape, their dancing, their looks, their height etc.  I don't believe that commenting on where the preferences (appear)  to lie, is necessarily a product of envy.  

 

People are looking to understand the selection criteria and what directors want.  Over the 4 pages of this thread there are posts discussing pressures on those selected to maintain an extremely low body weight - despite their (probably) natural leanness!  This is not in the interest of any child or adult interested in pursuing ballet, professionally or for pleasure.  IMHO!

But if you’re a self conscious 12 year old, say for example you’re one of the first in your class to reach puberty, and a number of the observing parents are watching you intently and whispering behind their hands rather than watching their own offspring how do you think the child feels? 

[DD Driver]

11 minutes ago, Jane said:

But if you’re a self conscious 12 year old, say for example you’re one of the first in your class to reach puberty, and a number of the observing parents are watching you intently and whispering behind their hands rather than watching their own offspring how do you think the child feels? 

 

I would hope that is a rare occurrence.  Maybe you have seen otherwise.  My child and her peers seem to get quite a lot of audition, open class and stage opportunities so they are used to being watched and know (believe) that 99% of parents are very supportive of them.  Children not wanting to be watched (or refusing to allow, their own parents to watch) when they are dancing, is a whole other thread!

 

The parents I know are very careful if allowed to watch a class.  Parents don't talk.  There is a skill in watching of course! e.g. very limited focus for more than 3 seconds in any one place.  Don't make eye contact... No easy feat. 

 

So, I'm talking about trends in general.  I am happy for ANY successes for students I know even vaguely - based on whatever gets them through.

[Tulip]

This is exactly the issue Kanangra.  Some of the students admitted into vocational schools are not gifted dancers.  Maybe they look like someone's ideal of a ballerina.  I want to see talented people on stage.  People who are beautiful in motion, showing musicality and artistry that moves me. 

 

I see too many gifted full time ballet students being rejected by vocational schools, PDL and YAGP because they do not fit the mould.  Meanwhile they win the local and national Eisteddfods and comps because of their stage presence.  They are chosen as soloists in their ballet school productions because anyone can see they have 'it'.  Frankly, many who are chosen by the vocational schools can't cut it with these performers.   I can't change any of that!  I'm just saying it is very obvious to all involved. Sigh.

 

DD Driver, 

from your observation above of young dancers in vocational schools, forgive me if I’ve misunderstood you, suggests that you have sat and made a judgment of these students. You say in your opinion that some dancers in vocational schools are not gifted dancers, how do you know this?  The gifted dancers whom you have observed have been rejected by vocational schools, you say anyone can see they have it, but are you a trained professional dance teacher from an industry who knows which dancers will be employable. 
 

my whole point of me commenting on this thread was to point out that it is not only schools that put our children under so much pressure to be extra lean, but it is definitely parents who sit watching critically, she’s too thin, she’s put a bit on, she’s bulking those muscles up. 
 

It seems in the dance world a huge amount of adults mess with our children’s minds, contributing to body dystopia, never being good enough etc. 
Hence the comment ‘We dancers all end up being a little messed up to survive the dance world’. 
 

[Peony]

I think you make a very valid point Tulip. It also doesn’t just happen in the dance world, adults can be equally awful to kids with learning disabilities, autism, problem parents etc. The common denominator is probably that the kids are a little more vulnerable to start with. Sometimes we don’t think about our behaviour and have to make a conscious decision to change our reaction to things.

[Pas de Quatre]

Pupils who are used to dancing solos at competition and in their own school shows often find it hard to adjust to become just one of many within a vocational school or corps de ballet.

[NJH]

2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Pupils who are used to dancing solos at competition and in their own school shows often find it hard to adjust to become just one of many within a vocational school or corps de ballet.

which is exactly  my point  ref the 'phenoms' from (mainly) the USA who despite storming  competitions as teen disappear  once  they have to start pulling their  weight across the repetoire and  sink or swim on their own merits  among peers  rather than carefully  crafted  opportunities

 

[DD Driver]

People talk about wanting more diversity in ballet.  Government bodies and Arts Councils talk about linking funding to Ballet based on clear examples that they are taking steps towards greater diversity.  Action must  however start at a very young age!

 

I see selections being made by big schools for training & intensives and by global comps, from the age of 9, that send a clear message to people with non-conforming body shapes - that they are not welcome.  I know 2 teenage girls who are part Pacific Islander.  They have curves - only if compared to others in the studio. They have the facility, they are lean, they are beautiful and they are gifted dancers (in my humble opinion and their teachers).  No offers for them!  They will have left the building soon.

 

Yes, I am a parent judging what I see is going on!  I judge that they have been rejected based solely on their body shape.  

Edited October 21, 2020 by DD Driver

[alison]

11 hours ago, DD Driver said:

People talk about wanting more diversity in ballet.  Government bodies and Arts Councils talk about linking funding to Ballet based on clear examples that they are taking steps towards greater diversity. 

 

But that's among audiences.  Difficult for organisations to control what's happening down at grass-roots teaching level.

[NJH]

17 minutes ago, alison said:

 

But that's among audiences.  Difficult for organisations to control what's happening down at grass-roots teaching level.

that is also  in terms of other activities, however   the boxes can be ticked  with primary  age   initiatives and   stuff like over 55s... certainly my perception is that  'working age adult' provision beyond 'hobby'  classes happens  despite the big companies  and  is one of the first things to fall with the vocational schools  that have  supported / tolerated it

 

[DD Driver]

8 hours ago, alison said:

 

But that's among audiences.  Difficult for organisations to control what's happening down at grass-roots teaching level.

 

That is interesting, Alison.  In many countries people are looking to see more representation of their community on stage.  Of course every country, quite rightly, has a different context.

 

Royal NZ Ballet went through a media furore in 2017/18 because so few of their dancers where New Zealanders.  They realised that they needed to  make 'better pathways' to ensure that kiwis could come through at the required level and that there was an NZ 'voice' in their works.

 

Yes, many lead characters in classical ballets are required to be etheral - delicate and light. 

 

I recall the story...about a famous dancer who was believed, by some, to be too big to play the sylph in La Sylphide.  The response from the director(?), who wanted that dancer, was "Er...have you ever seen a sylph?"

Edited October 21, 2020 by DD Driver

[Legseleven]

On 18/10/2020 at 22:06, Kate_N said:

 

Yes, Tulip, I've seen that too, over many, many years ... and not just in ballet, but in other elite sports (family member years ago on the squad from which selection for the national Olympic skating team was made, for example). I think it happens in every elite activity where there is pressure of age, a very very narrow funnel from the broad recreational pool of participants into the elite echelons.

 

It seems to me that some of the underlying - maybe completely unconscious - feeling/thinking in this sort of discussion (and I've seen discussions like this for years - it's not a recent thing!) is that there are a lot of young people desperately chasing something that is very very hard to get. 

I couldn’t agree more. I got very tired hearing that one associate scheme had continued to reject a particular child for 3 years solely because she wasn’t tall for her age and that another child had only had successes at various festivals because a relative of hers had once been a well-known teacher in the area. It is very easy to ‘blame’ any perceived successes of a child who isn’t one’s own on something that isn’t the extremely likely truth that they were simply a better fit at the time for that particular scheme/festival category, etc. 
 

[TippyTippy]

Wow reading this old thread, well not that old unfortunately as only last year, has astounded me. I love how "mums" are now judging how vocational school choose their students.

 

How absolutely ridiculous. The top vocational schools around the world and top ballet competitions pick the best kids who "have it all"  including length of neck, feet, flexibility, back, proportions, face...it's not just how skinny a kid is, if only. And if a skinny kid is chosen over another, stop just looking at the fact the kid is skinny but maybe look at other areas the other dancer didn't have, such as neck length etc etc etc. It's about the whole package and there are very few that have it all. Some are let into vocational schools (mostly to fund the scholarship kids who do have it all) hoping to improve on weaknesses, but they wont get contracts at the end of the day if their weaknesses aren't improved..

 

I really hate this banging on about skinny dancers, it's as appalling as fat bashing. Ballet looks for a look and very, very few have it all.

[Peony]

The ones who have everything are probably incredibly rare and destined to be principals. Looking from the outside at documentaries different judges place different emphasis on different attributes. Looking at the vaganova they seem to have a particularly large audition panel which is probably a very good idea. They still have a large drop out rate though, the selection isn’t perfect and children change an enormous amount from age 11 in body and mind. Best thing is not to concentrate on others but to work on yourself as hard as possible. Ballet is so popular that there will always be a huge amount of dedicated people with the same aim, not an easy path to take

[Chamomile]

I am slightly late to the conversation with this thread but I’d just like to say tread with caution. More students/professionals read this forum than you’d think (we are internet savvy young people after all! 😉). Discussions about physique can easily get out of hand and can be quite triggering if you’re not careful.

 

Ballet unfortunately does have a particular aesthetic that only a tiny percentage of people possess genetically. As an ex-vocational ballet student at one of the top schools, I can confidently say my body shape has fluctuated as a result of comments/pressure to reach particular grades in reports/assessments or just simply in the hope that I would be favoured.

 

I started my professional training as a relatively muscular 12-year-old and had already started puberty. Although I was slightly bigger than some of my classmates who were still pre-pubescent at this point, I never remember having any hang-ups about my physique. 
 

From the age of 15 onwards I have been everything in my teachers’ eyes... “just right”, “too thin” (although worryingly this was occasionally met with praise), “too big”, “too bulky”, back to “just right”. I have really suffered with disordered eating, yo-yo dieting, body dysmorphia and general loss of confidence. It can very easily zap the love out of ballet! 

I believe it is hard enough growing up as a young person in this day and age, let alone adding the difficulties of dance training on top of this! Please encourage young dancers to love their bodies, no matter how they may look aesthetically. Be very cautious of any dance teacher who attempts to give scientific advice and claim it worked for them - every body is different! If something is flagged up as an issue, please approach someone who is actually trained to deal with athletes (if you can find someone who also deals with dancers it’s more of a bonus!). You wouldn’t ignore a doctor’s advice and listen to what Joe Bloggs advises for your health, so why do the same for dance?!
 

Be sure as parents to be there to be a shoulder to cry on and someone to cheer from the sidelines. Unfortunately so many dancers won’t ever “make it”, but you don’t want them walking away with a bitter taste in their mouths. It really upsets me to know that some parents can be incredibly judgemental of developing bodies - we get enough of that from teachers as it is! 
 

Encourage your DC to pursue safe physical activity outside of dance that will not only benefit their dance training, but also provide huge amounts of enjoyment. Encourage other interests and hobbies too. Conforming to this ideal of a bunhead is NOT healthy! Eat nutritious food but also don’t make a song and dance out of it. Don’t overload children with summer schools and masterclasses - yes, it may be cool to be taught by particular dancers and to have the ability to travel to new places, but use holidays to rest too! Follow this and I think many of you will find that your children will actually develop into stronger, healthier and happier dancers that fit the aesthetic requirements.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Chamomile

[alison]

Thank you, Chamomile, for that view from the "other side" - and a belated welcome to the forum from me, too.

[drdance]

Chamomile - VERY wise words! Thank you for your insight. I hope you are well.

[DancingtoDance]

On 02/08/2020 at 07:04, Kate_N said:

MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread has been split off from an earlier thread here:

and some quotes may be from that original thread (click on the arrow at the top right of any quote to go back to the original post).

If you spot any post which is obviously in the "wrong" thread, please point it out.  Thank you.

 

 

 

 

@Pups_mumI think this is such an important point. We need a balance, and a society which doesn't pathologise normal ordinary feelings of stress, anxiety etc and particularly the normal ordinary confusions of puberty!

 

I had a young student of mine take me aside at the start of a 3 hour studio session to tell me that they thought I ought to know that they'd not slept well because they'd been having lots of anxious thoughts. My spoken response was to smile be reassuring and say  "It's OK. You know what you have to do. Do the breathing, be in the present here in the studio, focus on that. You don't have to think about anything else."

 

What I was thinking to myself was, however, "Welcome to the adult world."

 

Lovely hard-working student - but I can't help feeling that they were not served well by not being taught that anxious thoughts are normal ... and being taught how to deal with them. And insomnia from them! Resilience is so important.

 

Edited to add: So I"m interested in what can be done to train young people in realistic ways in areas where standards are exceptionally high, and competition for places is tough, and some aspects of the high standards are perhaps beyond the individual's control?

 

Given classical ballet aesthetics as they currently are, there are going to be some bodies which are just not suited. And before we get to aesthetics, the rigours of the physical training also mean that some bodies are just not suited. And the work ethic is necessarily tough, and aesthetic & technical standards necessarily exceptional.

 

What are the ways of preparing young people for these aspects of the world they aspire to enter, which offer realistic assessment to pupils, but don't become abusive?

 

I think that abuse or neglect can be intentional or unintentional, and that abuse or neglect is never okay. One way to prevent dance teachers abusing or neglecting students is to hire dance teachers committed to valuing the physical, emotional and mental health of dance students, who use teaching practices that prevent physical, emotional or mental health injuries, and that also consider challenges students may have in this area (e.g. adapting the steps of a ballet exercise for a particular student who has a temporary physical injury).

 

I think dance teachers of children and teenagers should receive training or guidance regarding typical and atypical physical, social, emotional, and cognitive development of children and teenagers, and regarding what ballet steps are and are not appropriate for a child or teenager of a certain age, previous dance training, ability in dance, physique, flexibility and strength to do. I think putting a child or teenager at high risk of injury due to demanding to do dance steps or exercises inappropriate for their age or dance ability is abuse. It is not okay to push bodies and minds beyond their current limits to the point it poses a risk of physical or mental injury. While a certain amount of training in ballet is needed for a professional career in dancing or teaching ballet, I think over-training in ballet or dance can potentially cause injury and can be counter-productive to progress in ballet or dance. I also think over-scheduling children and teenagers with activities, including academic activities, is not helpful and quite possibly harmful. Whether or not one is paying for the activities is irrelevant regarding whether over-scheduling of those activities is harmful. Just because one is paying for something doesn't necessarily mean it is worth it and doesn't cause harm, and just because some things may be free does not necessarily mean they should be taken or that they cannot harm. Parent should be aware of this.

 

Resilience is important and can help children and teenagers get through difficult situations. However, this does not mean that children or teenagers should be expected to cope without help from other people with situations that are beyond what their current skills allow them to cope with, or to accept abuse or neglect, or that having resilience means that trauma will not harm. I think children and teenagers should be taught, shown or modeled problem-solving skills. Children and teenagers should also be taught about appropriate and inappropriate behavior and how to respond to inappropriate behavior. Home is one place appropriate behavior should be shown and taught, but unfortunately children's parents could be negligent or abusive to them. I think the topic of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, bullying, mistreatment, abuse and neglect should be discussed in school with students as well. I think children's and teenager's emotions, feelings and needs should be validated. These strategies could help build resilience. I think having awareness of one's current skills and of past and present situations could also help build resilience, and that others could help develop this awareness in young people. Students also should not be shamed or blamed for things outside of their control.

 

There should also be process students and parents could take to express concerns or to report inappropriate behavior, and without the fear of negative consequences arising from doing so. Students and parents should be encouraged to express any concerns they have in the event that they have any.

 

Verbal, emotional, or physical abuse have no place anywhere, including in dance classes, dance rehearsals, dance performances, recreational, pre-vocational or vocational dance schools, or dance companies. 

 

Regarding aesthetics, growing bodies can definitely change over time. I think there are some aspects of aesthetics you can control, and some aspects of aesthetics that you can't control. For example, one may be able to develop long and lean muscles as a result of ballet training, while one may not be able to change the length of their toes. I think it is possible that one's torso-leg proportion may change as one grows, and how much this will change if at all may not be predictable. I think regarding weight, actual or perceived issues regarding weight must be handled with care, particularly with young people whose bodies have not fully developed yet. I will preface this by emphasizing that I am not a health professional: I think if someone's weight changes due to puberty or natural changes in the body, this is okay and perhaps sometimes concerns regarding weight in the context of classical ballet aesthetics may be better addressed when a young person's body has fully developed or been close to fully developing. I think for a child or teenager, if there is a weight management plan it should be created with the guidance of a health professional and that the plan should be executed. under the supervision of a health professional.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by DancingtoDance

[drdance]

12 hours ago, DancingtoDance said:

 

I think that abuse or neglect can be intentional or unintentional, and that abuse or neglect is never okay. One way to prevent dance teachers abusing or neglecting students is to hire dance teachers committed to valuing the physical, emotional and mental health of dance students, who use teaching practices that prevent physical, emotional or mental health injuries, and that also consider challenges students may have in this area (e.g. adapting the steps of a ballet exercise for a particular student who has a temporary physical injury).

 

I think dance teachers of children and teenagers should receive training or guidance regarding typical and atypical physical, social, emotional, and cognitive development of children and teenagers, and regarding what ballet steps are and are not appropriate for a child or teenager of a certain age, previous dance training, ability in dance, physique, flexibility and strength to do. I think putting a child or teenager at high risk of injury due to demanding to do dance steps or exercises inappropriate for their age or dance ability is abuse. It is not okay to push bodies and minds beyond their current limits to the point it poses a risk of physical or mental injury. While a certain amount of training in ballet is needed for a professional career in dancing or teaching ballet, I think over-training in ballet or dance can potentially cause injury and can be counter-productive to progress in ballet or dance. I also think over-scheduling children and teenagers with activities, including academic activities, is not helpful and quite possibly harmful. Whether or not one is paying for the activities is irrelevant regarding whether over-scheduling of those activities is harmful. Just because one is paying for something doesn't necessarily mean it is worth it and doesn't cause harm, and just because some things may be free does not necessarily mean they should be taken or that they cannot harm. Parent should be aware of this.

 

 

Exactly.

However, sadly there are still teachers (in every level of dance training establishment) who have little to no training/understanding/experience of child development, child psychology, activity modification for injury, the effects of the adolescent growth spurt, pedagogy, or mental health first aid. There are dance schools up and down the country where a career as a perfomer is enough of a qualification to be a teacher. There are some dance schools where people are teaching who don't have that, or any teaching qualification or training.  There are dance schools with teachers who have done the training, passed the exams, continue to get wonderful exam results and dancers who win competitions left right and centre, yet who have unhealthy practices. 

All parents can do is try and find out as much about the school and the training as possible, and if something doesn't sound right, seek advice.

 

 

[DancingtoDance]

6 hours ago, drdance said:

Exactly.

However, sadly there are still teachers (in every level of dance training establishment) who have little to no training/understanding/experience of child development, child psychology, activity modification for injury, the effects of the adolescent growth spurt, pedagogy, or mental health first aid. There are dance schools up and down the country where a career as a perfomer is enough of a qualification to be a teacher. There are some dance schools where people are teaching who don't have that, or any teaching qualification or training.  There are dance schools with teachers who have done the training, passed the exams, continue to get wonderful exam results and dancers who win competitions left right and centre, yet who have unhealthy practices. 

All parents can do is try and find out as much about the school and the training as possible, and if something doesn't sound right, seek advice.

 

 

How will parents know whether the training is right (i.e. free from physical and emotional abuse, preventing injury, and also of sufficient quality and sufficient but not excessive quantity for their child’s goals in dance)?

[Kate_N]

Well, one answer is - Parents should read & consult this message board!

 

But seriously, it is tricky. One would think that the teacher @drdancedescribes 

 

Quote

There are dance schools with teachers who have done the training, passed the exams, continue to get wonderful exam results and dancers who win competitions left right and centre

 

would be safe, but as she notes, these teachers can still have unhealthy practices. So many children do ballet & dance as one of their childhood activities, and most parents are not in or from the performing world, and don't have the specific knowledge to judge quality of training.

 

But I'd imagine that most parents of child ballet/dance students would go to watching days or see their children in class somehow, or - as a child gets older & more articulate - talk to them about their teachers, their classes, and what the child is learning? Same as for academic school.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Kate_N

[Lifeafterballet]

In my experience some of the cruelest teachers go unchecked as they get the best results for the school 😔Never mind the physical, psychological and emotional damage that the children endure in their classes. After 8 years watching vocational ballet classes I personally still don't have a clue technical and correction wise about what is good or bad. But I can sense a happy, positive and nurturing class. An environment that is totally inclusive of every child and a willingness to develop them so that they blossom into the best dancer that they could be filled with confidence. 

[Peanut68]

4 hours ago, Kate_N said:

Well, one answer is - Parents should read & consult this message board!

 

But seriously, it is tricky. One would think that the teacher @drdancedescribes 

 

 

would be safe, but as she notes, these teachers can still have unhealthy practices. So many children do ballet & dance as one of their childhood activities, and most parents are not in or from the performing world, and don't have the specific knowledge to judge quality of training.

 

But I'd imagine that most parents of child ballet/dance students would go to watching days or see their children in class somehow, or - as a child gets older & more articulate - talk to them about their teachers, their classes, and what the child is learning? Same as for academic school.

Trouble  of course with covid times, there have been no viewing classes in vocational schools, no or few live performances & no in person consultations....

Covid is almost a ‘get out of jail free’  card a bad or abusive teacher can wave or hide behind.

Very very troubling... 

Teachers/schools seem to think they are beyond reproach & above questioning or challenging & with the ominous fear inherent in vocational schools, too many remain silent in the worry that they can always assess out or remove funding from protagonist pupils. Awful fear paralyses too many of us preventing us from speaking out or even asking questions (either the student or the parent, worried that will label a dancer as a trouble maker, a whinging complainer, a non resilient emotional weakling, a bad influence, ‘not worth bothering with’, write them off, verbalise ‘threats’ that careers can be made or broken by teachers/schools interactions with employment contacts etc....

The more I write this, the more I shudder at what we are allowing in this so called beautiful ballet world. 

Another point re: lack of viewing. We only have the word of the teacher & written/verbal reports/assessments etc that a dancer has somehow deteriorated. And why is that always judged to be the fault solely of the dancer? Surely there is a big finger of possible blame & or shame that should also be pointed at the teacher/teachers/school management? At the very least, a Dancer’s falling ‘scores’ or loss of talent should be of concern? In the real world of ‘normal’ school or in an employment setting, any drop off of performance at any level would trigger  investigation. eg. If a previously high achieving salesperson suddenly saw big downturn in results then his sales manager would be duty bound to ask questions; could be individual issues? Could be beyond their control (no stock, poor product performance or service preventing customers reordering etc etc) which could trigger investigations elsewhere....

Same with academic schools who afterall have their (horrid) predictions that follow a child right through from early age school SATS right through to GCSE’s & beyond. Any sudden fall or increase is generally looked at & department heads will consider teacher performance in relation to changes - good or bad - in a cohorts performance & results. And these get published!! What ‘proof’ of good teaching do we really have of our vocational establishments? The roll out of the usual lists of graduate destinations & successful alumni lists (so often just an accumulation of those succeeding over the last couple of decades) does not cut it at all. 

We need transparency, we need parity of comparison & most of all we need all teachers to be judged & assessed & to not have this all too often God like status wealded as power over children & young adults (& over us old enough to know better parents too!!) 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Peanut68
Typo!!

[alison]

I think you need to edit "fury" to "duty", Peanut!

[Peanut68]

Thanks Alison - duly edited! Though I think fury does certainly figure highly in my post! 

[Kate_N]

4 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

But I can sense a happy, positive and nurturing class. An environment that is totally inclusive of every child and a willingness to develop them so that they blossom into the best dancer that they could be filled with confidence. 

 

THat's the key for parents, I should think.

[Peanut68]

Sadly that doesn’t seem to be the feel in many vocational school classes in my experience....it can vary greatly if coyrse & also what works for sone students & they may feel fully supported by a teacher may not work for all...

I guess finding the right ‘fit’ maybe is key? But a happy time can so sadly & easily change with a change if tracher/culture/cohort.  I increasingly feel like we in the UK have got training all wrong & perhaps where we see the more intensive coaching approach as generally seems to be adopted overseas is potentially less damaging?

Afterall, a concert pianist / & indeed those who go on to be second violins or similar in an orchestra - do not train in their instrument in a room with 20-30 others all competing for the attention of the one teacher at the same time! A balance is used; a mix of one to one teaching with a carefully selected teacher/mentor with then group studies in ensemble/orchestras etc....could this be a model to adopt in dance training? Or is it a problem that there are now so many students & so many possible training institutions? I’d be interested to know the statistics. 

eg. How many day train to career achieving level in violin versus ballet. And then after graduating his many gainna career playing violin versus ballet & then again how many after so many years remain in career, rise in ranks of orchestra etc versus dancers in ballet companies. My gut tells me way more train for a classical dance career than train for a classical music career? I’m pribsvnoy way off & I dare say an online forum like this orobsbjoh has very similar discussions about experiences of young people! 

[Glissé]

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

I increasingly feel like we in the UK have got training all wrong & perhaps where we see the more intensive coaching approach as generally seems to be adopted overseas is potentially less damaging?

Exactly this. Unfortunately throughout my dd’s full 8 yrs of vocational and non vocational training we can’t think of one teacher that has truly been nurturing and supportive. What makes this tricky is many teachers can be subtle with the bullying. Eg ignoring the student in class everyday, favouritism to the point they’re not learning anything or receiving corrections, subtle name calling. Whereas other teachers may be a lot more obvious eg shouting etc. What was interesting in dd’s training is that she learnt that the kindest teachers were male. DD’s technique improved massively when she was coached by a male teacher. This is just our experience of course. It’s also interesting how male dancers often progress quicker than females or don’t appear to be as psychologically affected by the training. Part of this may be because of the amount of males that do ballet training compared to females are they treated better because they want to encourage them to keep dancing whereas teachers know that the girls can just be replaced immediately so they’re treated different? I do think intense private training is the way forward now. This is how the international dancers are so technically accomplished. They most likely have an encouraging supportive coach, are privately trained and are healthy and happy in their dancing. My advice would be if you’re not going down the private coaching route monitor how your dc is feeling after each class. I think it’s quite obvious when something is wrong are they happy after class or upset/ down  keep the conversation open and if something doesn’t feel  right as hard as it may be, speak up or remove your dc from the environment. Nothing is worth their mental health. 

[DancingtoDance]

On 20/01/2022 at 08:24, Kate_N said:

Well, one answer is - Parents should read & consult this message board!

 

But seriously, it is tricky. One would think that the teacher @drdancedescribes 

 

 

would be safe, but as she notes, these teachers can still have unhealthy practices. So many children do ballet & dance as one of their childhood activities, and most parents are not in or from the performing world, and don't have the specific knowledge to judge quality of training.

 

But I'd imagine that most parents of child ballet/dance students would go to watching days or see their children in class somehow, or - as a child gets older & more articulate - talk to them about their teachers, their classes, and what the child is learning? Same as for academic school.

 

Unhealthy practices are not necessarily always made known to parents. Not every parent necessarily talks with their children as often as they perhaps should. Not every child or teenager will necessarily let their parent know about an unhealthy practice that is taking place.

 

Even if a parent is from a dance performing world, e.g. has performed as a dancer, that does not necessarily mean they know what dance and exercises are and not appropriate for their child at their current physical and technical development to do. I think physiotherapists or people in similar professions may be able to offer advice regarding this.

 

Regarding aesthetics, I think dance teachers should not discuss with recreational dance students their body type or weight, since they are not pursuing a dance career which may require a specific body type. If weight poses a health issue, that is what a doctor not a dance teacher who is not also a doctor should say. Dance teachers may not necessarily know whether or not a dance student wants to pursue a career in dance, so that is why it may be wise for dance students and/or their parents to let their dance teacher(s) know if they want to pursue a career in dance. If there is a concern regarding aesthetics, if discussed with the student I think this should be discussed privately and with care especially if the student's body is still developing as I think students' bodies can grow into or grow out of a ballet body (e.g. their torso-leg proportion can change), but some factors of this may not be what can be controlled. Dance teachers do not need to and should not tell a whole class or any student publicly in a class that they need to lose or gain weight those students giving any advice about how to do so and how to do so safely and health and without emphasizing healthy practices and without even knowing if losing or gaining weight would be safe or appropriate for those students (e.g. they may be at a healthy weight for their current situation, and losing or gaining weight could be very damaging to health and even life-threatening for some people, and dance teachers may or may not be aware of certain students' health conditions which may make it even more important for them to have safe practices regarding nutrition and exercise). 

 

While I think children and teenagers should be taught and shown that respecting authority to a certain extent is important, I think children and teenagers should be told that if something someone, including an authority figure, asks them to do does not feel safe or right to do, they don't have to do it and should not do it, and that it is okay for them to speak up when something is wrong or to tell someone including an authority figure to stop doing something harmful or that they think something they did was not okay.

[DancingtoDance]

On 18/01/2022 at 21:33, DancingtoDance said:

 

I think that abuse or neglect can be intentional or unintentional, and that abuse or neglect is never okay. One way to prevent dance teachers abusing or neglecting students is to hire dance teachers committed to valuing the physical, emotional and mental health of dance students, who use teaching practices that prevent physical, emotional or mental health injuries, and that also consider challenges students may have in this area (e.g. adapting the steps of a ballet exercise for a particular student who has a temporary physical injury).

 

I think dance teachers of children and teenagers should receive training or guidance regarding typical and atypical physical, social, emotional, and cognitive development of children and teenagers, and regarding what ballet steps are and are not appropriate for a child or teenager of a certain age, previous dance training, ability in dance, physique, flexibility and strength to do. I think putting a child or teenager at high risk of injury due to demanding to do dance steps or exercises inappropriate for their age or dance ability is abuse. It is not okay to push bodies and minds beyond their current limits to the point it poses a risk of physical or mental injury. While a certain amount of training in ballet is needed for a professional career in dancing or teaching ballet, I think over-training in ballet or dance can potentially cause injury and can be counter-productive to progress in ballet or dance. I also think over-scheduling children and teenagers with activities, including academic activities, is not helpful and quite possibly harmful. Whether or not one is paying for the activities is irrelevant regarding whether over-scheduling of those activities is harmful. Just because one is paying for something doesn't necessarily mean it is worth it and doesn't cause harm, and just because some things may be free does not necessarily mean they should be taken or that they cannot harm. Parent should be aware of this.

 

Resilience is important and can help children and teenagers get through difficult situations. However, this does not mean that children or teenagers should be expected to cope without help from other people with situations that are beyond what their current skills allow them to cope with, or to accept abuse or neglect, or that having resilience means that trauma will not harm. I think children and teenagers should be taught, shown or modeled problem-solving skills. Children and teenagers should also be taught about appropriate and inappropriate behavior and how to respond to inappropriate behavior. Home is one place appropriate behavior should be shown and taught, but unfortunately children's parents could be negligent or abusive to them. I think the topic of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, bullying, mistreatment, abuse and neglect should be discussed in school with students as well. I think children's and teenager's emotions, feelings and needs should be validated. These strategies could help build resilience. I think having awareness of one's current skills and of past and present situations could also help build resilience, and that others could help develop this awareness in young people. Students also should not be shamed or blamed for things outside of their control.

 

There should also be process students and parents could take to express concerns or to report inappropriate behavior, and without the fear of negative consequences arising from doing so. Students and parents should be encouraged to express any concerns they have in the event that they have any.

 

Verbal, emotional, or physical abuse have no place anywhere, including in dance classes, dance rehearsals, dance performances, recreational, pre-vocational or vocational dance schools, or dance companies. 

 

Regarding aesthetics, growing bodies can definitely change over time. I think there are some aspects of aesthetics you can control, and some aspects of aesthetics that you can't control. For example, one may be able to develop long and lean muscles as a result of ballet training, while one may not be able to change the length of their toes. I think it is possible that one's torso-leg proportion may change as one grows, and how much this will change if at all may not be predictable. I think regarding weight, actual or perceived issues regarding weight must be handled with care, particularly with young people whose bodies have not fully developed yet. I will preface this by emphasizing that I am not a health professional: I think if someone's weight changes due to puberty or natural changes in the body, this is okay and perhaps sometimes concerns regarding weight in the context of classical ballet aesthetics may be better addressed when a young person's body has fully developed or been close to fully developing. I think for a child or teenager, if there is a weight management plan it should be created with the guidance of a health professional and that the plan should be executed. under the supervision of a health professional.

 

 

On 03/02/2021 at 04:57, Chamomile said:

I am slightly late to the conversation with this thread but I’d just like to say tread with caution. More students/professionals read this forum than you’d think (we are internet savvy young people after all! 😉). Discussions about physique can easily get out of hand and can be quite triggering if you’re not careful.

 

Ballet unfortunately does have a particular aesthetic that only a tiny percentage of people possess genetically. As an ex-vocational ballet student at one of the top schools, I can confidently say my body shape has fluctuated as a result of comments/pressure to reach particular grades in reports/assessments or just simply in the hope that I would be favoured.

 

I started my professional training as a relatively muscular 12-year-old and had already started puberty. Although I was slightly bigger than some of my classmates who were still pre-pubescent at this point, I never remember having any hang-ups about my physique. 
 

From the age of 15 onwards I have been everything in my teachers’ eyes... “just right”, “too thin” (although worryingly this was occasionally met with praise), “too big”, “too bulky”, back to “just right”. I have really suffered with disordered eating, yo-yo dieting, body dysmorphia and general loss of confidence. It can very easily zap the love out of ballet! 

I believe it is hard enough growing up as a young person in this day and age, let alone adding the difficulties of dance training on top of this! Please encourage young dancers to love their bodies, no matter how they may look aesthetically. Be very cautious of any dance teacher who attempts to give scientific advice and claim it worked for them - every body is different! If something is flagged up as an issue, please approach someone who is actually trained to deal with athletes (if you can find someone who also deals with dancers it’s more of a bonus!). You wouldn’t ignore a doctor’s advice and listen to what Joe Bloggs advises for your health, so why do the same for dance?!
 

Be sure as parents to be there to be a shoulder to cry on and someone to cheer from the sidelines. Unfortunately so many dancers won’t ever “make it”, but you don’t want them walking away with a bitter taste in their mouths. It really upsets me to know that some parents can be incredibly judgemental of developing bodies - we get enough of that from teachers as it is! 
 

Encourage your DC to pursue safe physical activity outside of dance that will not only benefit their dance training, but also provide huge amounts of enjoyment. Encourage other interests and hobbies too. Conforming to this ideal of a bunhead is NOT healthy! Eat nutritious food but also don’t make a song and dance out of it. Don’t overload children with summer schools and masterclasses - yes, it may be cool to be taught by particular dancers and to have the ability to travel to new places, but use holidays to rest too! Follow this and I think many of you will find that your children will actually develop into stronger, healthier and happier dancers that fit the aesthetic requirements.

I'm so sorry to hear how you have suffered with disordered eating and general loss of confidence, and how your teacher made those comments. Comments about weight should be made with care and only when necessary, especially with young people whose bodies and minds are still developing, and safe and healthy practices should be promoted instead of unsafe and unhealthy practices. A dance teacher may not know whether or not weight loss or weight gain in a student is or would be safe for them, so they should take that into consideration and not make reckless and potentially dangerous comments. One's health is much more important than whether or not one's weight is suitable for a career in performing ballet, and if one's health is unnecessarily compromised or if one uses unhealthy weight management practices I'm not sure that one will be able to have a long career in performing ballet anyway. No career in ballet or any career for that matter is worth damaging one's health. There are some forms of dance in which I think their body type requirements may be less restrictive than ballet.

 

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[Angela Essex]

16 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Sadly that doesn’t seem to be the feel in many vocational school classes in my experience....it can vary greatly if coyrse & also what works for sone students & they may feel fully supported by a teacher may not work for all...

I guess finding the right ‘fit’ maybe is key? But a happy time can so sadly & easily change with a change if tracher/culture/cohort.  I increasingly feel like we in the UK have got training all wrong & perhaps where we see the more intensive coaching approach as generally seems to be adopted overseas is potentially less damaging?

Afterall, a concert pianist / & indeed those who go on to be second violins or similar in an orchestra - do not train in their instrument in a room with 20-30 others all competing for the attention of the one teacher at the same time! A balance is used; a mix of one to one teaching with a carefully selected teacher/mentor with then group studies in ensemble/orchestras etc....could this be a model to adopt in dance training? Or is it a problem that there are now so many students & so many possible training institutions? I’d be interested to know the statistics. 

eg. How many day train to career achieving level in violin versus ballet. And then after graduating his many gainna career playing violin versus ballet & then again how many after so many years remain in career, rise in ranks of orchestra etc versus dancers in ballet companies. My gut tells me way more train for a classical dance career than train for a classical music career? I’m pribsvnoy way off & I dare say an online forum like this orobsbjoh has very similar discussions about experiences of young people! 

Yes peanut you are right. I can shed some light on classical music training having been at music school on weekends until age 18. Reading this it seems that dance training is a lot more brutal, especially in terms of the criticisms levelled at students being quite personal and sometimes body image related rather than just limited to comments about technique. Having said that music school was pretty brutal. We were made to play our parts solo in front of the whole orchestra of 100 people if we messed up for humiliation purposes, in sectionals we would be having to play our parts in front of rest of our section of 10 others for similar public humiliation. Yearly auditions to determine which ensemble we were in and our rank in it. Bitchiness and nasty comments from others that didn’t make where they wanted to be. When I was promoted to principal cellist I had to put up with bitchy comments to rest of section from my desk partner saying I couldn’t play. I can see many parallels to the dance world. Also my time at medical school was similar in terms of how we were treated as students with frequent public humiliations. Overall it’s sad, but it seems that any highly competitive environment is thus. It just seems more pronounced in dance. It’s not the best way to learn imo and possibly selects those that are thick skinned rather than those who have the most potential. 

[Peanut68]

Thank you Angela Essex.... interesting to see the (sad) parallels in dance/music & medicine training & yes, I think you are right...thck skin (possibly even being the loudest/bitchiest!) trumps  talent in far too many areas of life!

Whatever happened to human kindness? Is it not innate but has to be taught? I’m guessing our modern day obsession focussing on results & their perceived indication of success has just taken over & made us ever more ‘law of the (Urban) jungle’. Right from SATS in primary school through to 11+ & schools attended , to degrees at Uni to jobs & promotions....then partner choices & incone avhieved & geographic area you live right back to what nursery you choose/can afford for offspring...& so the sorry cycle perpetuates....

Much musing - sorry if off track