BBC Dance Season 2020 Discussion

[jmhopton]

I quite enjoyed the programme, hearing the dancers laughing and joking and seeing their dressing rooms etc. I realise it was only meant as a general introduction to male dancing and I thought the clips featuring Sambe and Joseph Sissens well done as it made the point not all male dancers come from either a dancing background or a well heeled middle class one. However, like others I felt it slightly lost focus and didn't make its points clearly enough.

Though it showed traditional ballet clips with some more modern ballets it didn't really emphasise the huge range of dances modern ballet dancers have to master and the very different ways they need to use their bodies; often on the same day.

• To talk about a typical ballet day with class, rehearsals and evening performance would highlight the tremendous amount of training and stamina needed everyday, not just occasionally like many athletes. Also unlike athletes they are not allowed to show the effort and exhaustion they may feel and often need to smile a lot as well!
• The gym training which might have been a revelation to the uninitiated  was touched upon but there again not really focused.
• Partnering is all important. There was the Mayerling clip but not really used in a focused way; a clip of the last minute or so of the final pas de deux from Manon and possibly a  Romeo and Juliet clip would highlight more modern ballet partnerships and also acting ability which I don't think was mentioned at all or just in passing. Also men showing emotion on stage.
• Solos. Perhaps too much focus on Bluebird. I would have liked a clip of Vadim doing the act 2 solo from 2 Pigeons or act 3 solo from Coppelia. Both only last about 90 seconds but are obviously a real work out. Also something more modern by another dancer/s.
• Ballet technique. As has already been pointed out no effort was made to analyse or explain why Vadim is perceived by some to be somehow 'better'. Needs to be explained more that each dancer, especially principles or would-be principles, all have their own very individual qualities that make all of them special but in different ways. They are not all cloned men in tights.

 

Despite these criticisms which I didn't think would take a lot of time to address and would have lead to a more focused revelatory programme, I did enjoy it. As others have said it was a bit odd to hide such a generalised programme on BBC4; a more general channel would have been better. Perhaps they'll do a follow up and incorporate some of my points and the points others have made. Some actual performances would be good as well! You would have thought it would have been good to follow it with Mayerling rather than showing Mayerling earlier as it is the best RB ballet with a male focus.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by jmhopton
spelling

[Irmgard]

I have to confess I was disappointed in this documentary and could only think of what might have been. Going on its description in Radio Times that it would reveal “the athleticism as well as lyricism it takes to be a male ballet dancer today”, it certainly did not succeed, spending too much time on talking and not enough in demonstrating this.  It seems to me that the film-maker was more interested in eavesdropping on dressing room chit-chat and break-time banter instead of showing the extremely hard work that goes into making ballet look effortless in performance.  Why not show the weight-training, the mechanics of pas de deux work and the physical stamina required to make even the shortest variation look effortless (perhaps showing something like the bluebird solo in slow motion and in close-up) to explain why we have a “golden generation” of male dancers at the Royal Ballet (not forgetting English National Ballet where both Muntagirov and Corrales started their professional ballet careers).  They deserved better than this “Hello” magazine approach.

[Sim]

I can understand McRae’s sensitivity, but I am afraid once you agree to participate in such a venture it is out of your remit as to how the footage is used and edited.  It’s a risk you have to take if you want the exposure.   
 

Talking of exposure, I might have taken his complaints more seriously if he hadn’t accompanied the post with a naked photo of his fabulous body.  It’s as if this is all about reminding us that he is a god, not a human being who is suffering with injury and trying really hard to come back to fitness.  The latter impressed me much more.  

[Rob S]

53 minutes ago, nycitybird said:

I was quite surprised at Valentino Zucchetti's frankness in discussing his disappointment about his rank/not being given more opportunities he thinks he deserves.

 

Yes, I'm wondering how he feels he came across. At least they showed him being positive with his choreography too

[Guest oncnp]

13 minutes ago, Sim said:

I can understand McRae’s sensitivity, but I am afraid once you agree to participate in such a venture it is out of your remit as to how the footage is used and edited.  It’s a risk you have to take if you want the exposure.   

 

Agreed. I wonder if the dancers had an "opt-out" or this was considered ROH publicity and part of the job?

[capybara]

19 minutes ago, Sim said:

 It’s as if this is all about reminding us that he is a god, not a human being who is suffering with injury and trying really hard to come back to fitness.  The latter impressed me much more.  

 

Hence  my remark about carefully curated social media images!

But I do appreciate that all dancers must be anxious about the future right now and that that must heighten heir sensitivity.

[Fonty]

4 hours ago, Richard LH said:

 

I haven't revisited the programme yet, but at the time I don't recall getting the impression that it suggested his dancing career was coming to an end (unlike the section on Ed Watson). 

 

Neither did I, Richard.  The impression I got was that the programme was saying that ballet dancing is a tough career, dancers are likely to get injured, and it is a slow process to recover completely.  I thought the emphasis was on the athleticism and fitness required, rather than age.  The programme did say, directly or indirectly, that the older you get the more difficult it is to bounce back from injury, but there is nothing particularly novel or offensive about that idea, is there? 

I can understand that McRae might find it a very sensitive issue.  It must be so frustrating to come back from one injury, only to go down with another.  But personally, I didn't get the impression he was being portrayed as a washed up has-been!  Quite the opposite IMO.  

Edited May 29, 2020 by Fonty

[LinMM]

Well having now seen the programme I too am surprised a little by Steven’s reaction as I didn’t think it gave the impression his career was over but then have been seeing some of his Facebook posts so was already obvious from those that he is fully determined to get back on the stage ...don’t know how the programme came across otherwise regards his career to people not aware of his plight but I didn’t think it showed him in any unfavourable light personally. But the statement Bridiem posted here is the one I had seen yesterday. Perhaps not so much suggesting the programme maker hadn’t done their research (as I said earlier)  but was not able to understand things in more depth. 
As to editorial control you usually don’t get that with BBC and you never know quite what slant they may take on an issue no matter what impression is given. Will be interesting to see his own film if comes into fruition anyway. 

While still on possible career endings it was interesting I thought that Ed Watson was revealing his dancing/performing career had come to an end but is the first time he has sort of formally expressed it or have I missed this? I was more sort of assuming this because of his lack of appearances but perhaps I missed any previous statement? I knew he was coaching as saw a terrific master class he rehearsed with ENB dancers on Song of the Earth but didn’t know he was now more formally in this role. 
Initially I too was surprised at Zuchetti being so frank about his lack of Principal status but in the end was explained by his love expressed for the RB and quite touching I thought so look forward to seeing more choreography from him and he will still be dancing in some roles. Bet he would be a great Summer school guest teacher as well. 

Anyway I really enjoyed this programme perhaps because any connection with the dancers .....felt a lurch at that view over Covent Garden from ROH ..oh to be up there again if only with a glass of water... is engrossing for me at this point ..and quite a bit of Cesar and Jo Sissens ( bodes well that the management obviously seem to like him) Sambe ( what an interesting story he has) Muntagirov and Ball  so all right up my street!! I did love watching Muntagirov and Campbell taking shots at the basket ball in their dressing room...crazy pair! 
I found it interesting that it is definitely the female dancers who have more say in who they partner with as I wasn’t sure about this and thought it might just be a question of seniority but they all seemed to accept this as the norm. 

Really this programme was only a series of snapshots and broad overviews and for ballet lovers there were obviously several strands we might have wanted to go more into .....Id be very happy to see a ballet Doc every week ...but it was certainly very welcome to see this right now. 
 

[Rob S]

6 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

I can understand that McRae might find it a very sensitive issue.  It must be so frustrating to come back with one injury, only to go down with another.  But personally, I didn't get the impression he was being portrayed as a washed up has-been!  Quite the opposite IMO.  

 

I assume he's had a few people on Instagram say something and he's felt the need to address it even if many more didn't get that impression

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

While still on possible career endings it was interesting I thought that Ed Watson was revealing his dancing/performing career had come to an end but is the first time he has sort of formally expressed it or have I missed this? I was more sort of assuming this because of his lack of appearances but perhaps I missed any previous statement? I knew he was coaching as saw a terrific master class he rehearsed with ENB dancers on Song of the Earth but didn’t know he was now more formally in this role. 

Initially I too was surprised at Zuchetti being so frank about his lack of Principal status but in the end was explained by his love expressed for the RB and quite touching I thought so look forward to seeing more choreography from him and he will still be dancing in some roles. Bet he would be a great Summer school guest teacher as well. 

 

I didn't think Watson quite said he had completely done with dancing - just that he knows he's near finishing (though I could be misremembering). After all when this programme was made he would presumably still have been looking towards doing The Dante Project at least. I also didn't know that he now coaches for the company.

 

And it was interesting to hear about Zucchetti choreographing, clearly quite a big piece. Maybe that would have been on the cards for next season? Who knows.

[capybara]

I think that there was an assumption ‘in the air’ that Edward Watson would probably bid farewell to the stage in the Dante Project.

 

[Scheherezade]

4 hours ago, Irmgard said:

I have to confess I was disappointed in this documentary and could only think of what might have been. Going on its description in Radio Times that it would reveal “the athleticism as well as lyricism it takes to be a male ballet dancer today”, it certainly did not succeed, spending too much time on talking and not enough in demonstrating this.  It seems to me that the film-maker was more interested in eavesdropping on dressing room chit-chat and break-time banter instead of showing the extremely hard work that goes into making ballet look effortless in performance.  Why not show the weight-training, the mechanics of pas de deux work and the physical stamina required to make even the shortest variation look effortless (perhaps showing something like the bluebird solo in slow motion and in close-up) to explain why we have a “golden generation” of male dancers at the Royal Ballet (not forgetting English National Ballet where both Muntagirov and Corrales started their professional ballet careers).  They deserved better than this “Hello” magazine approach.

 

I agree, Irmgard, with your comments regarding everything that could have been included, probably should have been included, and was for some reason (the film-maker's chosen angle, perhaps?) left out. Having said that, I did enjoy the dressing room chit-chat and break-time banter and feel that this gave a distinctly humanising feel to the whole (these people are just like you and me, save for their talent and commitment) and I feel sure that this is something that a general audience would also appreciate. I think it also showed quite clearly that whatever the level of talent and commitment, this is a career that is short-lived at best, that can be cut off cruelly at any stage due to injury or can be plagued by unfulfilled promise due to the personal preferences of the director or lack of the right break at the right time.

[LinMM]

One thing I do disagree with Odyssey is that too much time was spent on Nureyev..I know I would say that wouldn’t I.. but seriously it wasn’t that long on him and I think he warranted mentioning because it really was him in my view ( with Baryshnikov) who did change things for the better for men who are benefitting from this today. 
There’s an old clip of Nureyev doing the entrechats from 2nd Act Giselle when younger and absolutely breathtaking. To be sure many dancers can do them today equally wonderfully but he was one of the first if not the first to show skills taken for granted more today. 
Nureyev was a true grafter though as well as having the something special glow. 

 

 

[Fonty]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

Nureyev was a true grafter though as well as having the something special glow. 

 

 

 

Nureyev was such a masculine figure on stage, oozing sex appeal.  And nobody, but nobody, could work a cloak the way he could. 😉

[alison]

6 hours ago, nycitybird said:

I was quite surprised at Valentino Zucchetti's frankness in discussing his disappointment about his rank/not being given more opportunities he thinks he deserves.

 

Oh, I don't know.  I seem to remember a (rather younger) Steven McRae maybe a decade ago saying to camera something to the effect that if he didn't make it to principal within a few years he wouldn't be hanging around.  I think it was in the documentary focusing on the Royal Ballet School.

 

Same with Iohna Loots discussing her dissatisfaction with not having moved up from First Artist.  I think both got promoted fairly shortly afterwards.

[Ellie]

2 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Oh, I don't know.  I seem to remember a (rather younger) Steven McRae maybe a decade ago saying to camera something to the effect that if he didn't make it to principal within a few years he wouldn't be hanging around.  I think it was in the documentary focusing on the Royal Ballet School.

I remember this too (I think it was more than a decade ago). Also wasn't Laura Morera featured ? IIRC she was a First Artist at the time - I may be wrong.

[capybara]

18 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Oh, I don't know.  I seem to remember a (rather younger) Steven McRae maybe a decade ago saying to camera something to the effect that if he didn't make it to principal within a few years he wouldn't be hanging around.  I think it was in the documentary focusing on the Royal Ballet School.

 

Same with Iohna Loots discussing her dissatisfaction with not having moved up from First Artist.  I think both got promoted fairly shortly afterwards.

 

I get your drift, Alison!!!!  But now is not the time to be making a pitch for promotion. I'm sorry to say that I don't think that there will be any this year.

[alison]

I don't think there actually *was* any drift, capybara, just a comment.  "Shortly" may have been several years  

[Scheherezade]

2 hours ago, LinMM said:

There’s an old clip of Nureyev doing the entrechats from 2nd Act Giselle when younger and absolutely breathtaking. To be sure many dancers can do them today equally wonderfully but he was one of the first if not the first to show skills taken for granted more today. 
Nureyev was a true grafter though as well as having the something special glow. 

 

 

 

I've seen that clip too, LinMM, and it truly is breathtaking. And although it's true to say that today's dancers have far better technique, I don't agree with the corollary put forward in Men at the Barre that Nureyev would therefore stand out less if he were dancing today. It's equally true, surely, that if Nureyev were dancing today, his technique would be commensurately better now than it was back in the day; his work ethic and super-human drive would not allow for anything less, and his star quality would shine as brightly now as it did then.

 

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

Nureyev was such a masculine figure on stage, oozing sex appeal.  And nobody, but nobody, could work a cloak the way he could. 😉

 

He was charisma made flesh. That can never be replicated and that was what made him so special.There may well be better dancers now, as there were better dancers then, but it's hard to imagine anyone who could radiate that extraordinary magnetism.  

[Fonty]

23 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

 

I've seen that clip too, LinMM, and it truly is breathtaking. And although it's true to say that today's dancers have far better technique, I don't agree with the corollary put forward in Men at the Barre that Nureyev would therefore stand out less if he were dancing today. It's equally true, surely, that if Nureyev were dancing today, his technique would be commensurately better now than it was back in the day; his work ethic and super-human drive would not allow for anything less, and his star quality would shine as brightly now as it did then.

I said the same thing when I was watching it.  I hate it when those types of comments are made.  

[alison]

Yes.  There is more to being a dancer - and a star - than just "improved" technique.

[ninamargaret]

My late husband used to say, of certain actors - and they were very few in number - 'when they come on the stage lights up' The same is true of dancers. And they are a rare breed.

[LinMM]

Your comment about the cloak made me laugh Fonty.

It was a bit of an ongoing joke with a couple of ballet friends and myself that we bet he would have an even bigger cloak tonight etc and one night we were in standing and suddenly collapsed into fits of giggles at the size of Nureyev's cloak.....I'm sure it was bigger than other dancers at the time! We also used to enjoy imitating ( in a nice way)  the way he walked on stage to take up position ....and handled his cloaks!!  

Yes I too disagreed with the comment made in the programme that he wouldn't stand out today. 

Any dancer with as special a charisma as he had would stand out at any time.

Funnily enough ....with reference to dancers career lengths ...the only gripe I have about Nureyev is that he did dance on a bit too long. 

Ed Watson said that somebody had told him he would just know when it was time to stop ....and he did recognise that point for himself. 

I think the stage was such an intrinsic part of Nureyev that he just couldn't leave it. 

[ninamargaret]

I've always thought that all actors, dancers, singers etc should have a very good friend who can be trusted to tell them when it's time to stop. Age doesn't necessarily come into it - think of various musicians who are very elderly, but also think of the times we have seen a previously lauded favourite turn in a performance that makes us cringe inwardly. Dancers are probably less likely to dance for too long because of the physical requirements, but I have seen some very sad performances in other arts.

[Tango Dancer]

13 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

I've always thought that all actors, dancers, singers etc should have a very good friend who can be trusted to tell them when it's time to stop. Age doesn't necessarily come into it - think of various musicians who are very elderly, but also think of the times we have seen a previously lauded favourite turn in a performance that makes us cringe inwardly. Dancers are probably less likely to dance for too long because of the physical requirements, but I have seen some very sad performances in other arts.

 

Definitely.  I think the sensible ones know when to transition to other things such as coaching or teaching but it can be difficult for performers to know when to stop or change tact.  For example a lot of my favourite opera performers are now coaching and giving masterclasses (Willard White, Thomas Allen etc) rather than performing a lot and it's wonderful seeing them share with the younger generation the things they've learnt.  I was supposed to be going to the Verona opera festival this year and I discussed with my friends whether we should get tickets for the Placido Domingo gala.  We decided that we didn't want to hear him singing now at 79, knowing what his voice was at 40.

 

It's lovely that the Royal Ballet seems to have a good transition process for some of the dancers to teaching and coaching so they can pass on what they've learnt. I loved for example watching Zenaida Yanowsky coaching Mayara Magri and Fumi Kaneko in how to dance Odile at an Insight event.  

[Beryl H]

21 hours ago, Ellie said:

I remember this too (I think it was more than a decade ago). Also wasn't Laura Morera featured ? IIRC she was a First Artist at the time - I may be wrong.

 

Yes it was Laura Morera, and I'm pretty sure also Iona Loots, and then all 3 of them were promoted soon after 

 

Men at the Barre was less serious than I had hoped, though the preview did say ballets fans would be irritated, Steven McRae provided real emotion describing his feelings after his injuries though, I felt so sorry for him. Surprised Vadim Muntagirov and Alexander Campbell shared a room, don't any of the principals get their own?

 

[LinMM]

They do but I heard that they chose to share 😊

[capybara]

29 minutes ago, LinMM said:

They do but I heard that they chose to share 😊

Principals do not get their own room. From social media, it appears that Sambé is also in the Campbell/Muntagirov dressing room.  
 

[Guest oncnp]

7 minutes ago, capybara said:

Principals do not get their own room. From social media, it appears that Sambé is also in the Campbell/Muntagirov dressing room.  
 

 

I believe the women principals do get their own "dressing" room while the men share "changing" rooms. Apparently they don't have to dress. 

[capybara]

55 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

I believe the women principals do get their own "dressing" room while the men share "changing" rooms. Apparently they don't have to dress. 

I think that some women do share, but not all.

[Richard LH]

28 minutes ago, capybara said:

I think that some women do share, but not all.

Yes for example I recall that Sarah Lamb and Akane Takada share.

[Dawnstar]

On 29/05/2020 at 12:56, bridiem said:

And it was interesting to hear about Zucchetti choreographing, clearly quite a big piece. Maybe that would have been on the cards for next season? Who knows.

 

As he was choreographing it on the Upper School students I wondered if it could have been intended for the RBS's end of year performances?

[LinMM]

Yes no doubt. It's such a shame that the RB graduates will not get their chance to shine this year and I'm sure it's similar for other graduates as well.

Perhaps there could be a special performance for them in New Year if the ROH opens by January .....though many may have jobs elsewhere by then but as a one off event .....and not much will be happening in the Autumn anyway .....perhaps they might still like to do a farewell performance.